Trimmer

There is no need for insults. But there's no need to avoid them either... You came into a thread and suggested I don't use the aspect of the game that I'm inquiring about, and disregard my clearly expressed preferences... As if the people that want to see changes in the 3rd person view never considered flying in 1st person? LOL... Excellent suggestion...

You're making the assumption that I can't fly in 1st person... I fly in 1st person often, particularly when I'm flying the pawnee and not transporting people into the AO. Then you go and make an assumption on my personal preferences on the experience of flying in 1st/3rd, which is also false, because I do in fact enjoy the experience in 3rd person MUCH more, as well as many other extremely good pilots... You see, not all people are all about "realism" when sitting at a computer clicking buttons and looking at a screen. Sometimes I do enjoy a more realistic 1st person view, sometimes I like to be more effective at transporting people into tight spots in 3rd person, if you don['t understand the advantages 3rd person can offer then you're obviously not very experienced of a pilot in Arma, because there are certainly advantages to being more aware of your surroundings, if you don't understand how it enables you to be more aware of your surroundings then you just lack intelligence. But to say that I shouldn't voice my opinion to have the 3rd person view optimized more to my liking, based on YOUR personal opinion and preferences, is obviously silly to any thinking person... Do you go around to forums where people are inquiring about aspects of a game that you don't use, and suggest that they stop using them as well? Just kinda bizarre if you ask me...

Yes I agree. I just used the mod that @oukej made and it does clean everything up quite nicely. Good Job @oukej... Now the only problem is that it's a MOD... I can't use it in multiplayer servers, so it's about as useful as playing in the 1.68 legacy build if I can only use it in single-player. What's the problem with just fixing the game? Make a mod for the camera to be janked up like it is now if people like that, give the seasoned pilots their view back for multiplayer... Yay or Nay on this @oukej? Because letting us only have a proper camera view in a modified single player scenario is a pretty crappy compromise if that's what it's supposed to be, it's certainly not a "fix"

Okay my mistake. What's different that I'm dealing with now is that it does indeed seem to stay a certain distance from the heli now, and the old 1.68 view zoomed OUT as I increase speed, giving me a wider view around the heli as I'm traveling. I think I made my mistake by expecting the camera to zoom out as I increase forward speed like it always used to be, when it doesn't I think I just feel too close to the helicopter (this is all in 3rd person I should say). So now that I confirmed my mistake, it's still an issue for me. Is the camera zoom going to stay put, or can we get reverted to the old style? If a mod can fix this, can the mod be used in multiplayer servers like hostile takeover? Also, I noticed that occasionally when flying close to trees and such, the camera will do a weird little stutter now, it's hard to catch it, but it's happens at random now... Anybody else notice this?

I've only been flying in the 1.68 legacy build the last few weeks if I play at all. I switched to the main build just a bit ago to give it a shot. I think my only erk with it at this point is that the camera zooms IN as I pick up speed, rather than zooming out as I pick up speed. Can people adapt? Of course... But I really still don't enjoy the current view at all, and absolutely love killing time flying in the 1.68 view. I know it's just simple changes to a game and perhaps I'm being really "picky" about it. But hell, if I'm going to spend much time of my day playing a computer game, voicing my opinion to make that time more enjoyable seems reasonable, even if it's just personal preference. On the brighter side of the helicopter view getting jacked up, I've been spending more time fishing, yeah, like, outdoors... I'm expanding my horizons!

Well said romille1... I admit I don't share your optimism but I feel like I should learn to in this case at some point. The amount of "mood fixer" I've been smoking since all this started is getting rather excessive. On a better note, I'll be gone fishin for 6 days after I get off work tomorrow and won't even consider Arma for a while. That said, I expect all of you to have this sorted out by the time I get back... :)

Hmmm... Myeah I guess I don't understand how that answers my question. They both have parameters no? I'm not being snarky, I literally DON'T UNDERSTAND... lol I hate this. Let's just say for shits n giggles, "if" the camera never quite rolls back to the way we like it, and "if" I just wanted to fly in the old view... Could I just fly and create my own little SP missions in the Legacy version from this point on and just stop playing the new updated arma with everybody? Or will that it eventually get replaced? LOL- Yes, this is the alternative thinking I'm resorting to...

LOL... Dude, I so wish I can do something to help with what the dev requested. Your explanation sounds legit, I can make sense of it, but I haven't the slightest clue how to carry out the task at hand. To me, dev's comment made it seem like this is something we should be aware of how to do. Let's say I learned how to do all this stuff, wouldn't the easiest and most direct approach be to just show a video of a hummingbird flying from a month ago? Or go to the 1.68 legacy build, get the camera parameters from that and slap it on the forum? I feel like I'm missing so much and it's giving me a strange but mild anxiety... :(

I just started flying in editor in the Legacy1.68 version... OMG, it's so pretty! LOL, I missed the old view so much. Some help with the camparams mentioned earlier would be nice and I'll go back and start messing with it. Instantly when flying in this legacy build, everything feels so pure, so natural, so intuitive... It's like butter... I can't imagine why anybody would take the new view over the old, it's a no brainer to have left it. It's so much more noticeable switching over to this, just wish I could play on the servers like this :(

Okay. How do I go about playing with the extCameraParams? Lol don't bash me for the question, never really had to tweak this game much. I'm assuming I do this in the DEV branch? If somebody can point me in the right direction I'll start chopping at it, thanks. I'm downloading the legacy 1.68 build right now, will this allow me to fly in the original version? I'm excited just to go for a normal flight, LOL!

I'm asking too... A little input would be nice. Anything we can expect or do we just sit in the dark? I haven't been playing for any significant amount of time since the Jets DLC was released, with the exception of some really frustrating attempts at adapting to the last 2 views you dished to us. I can fly my heli in this view better than "most" pilots I see ever could in either view, but that's beside my frustration. I believe it's easier for an "OK" pilot to adapt than it is for some more dedicated Arma 3rd person pilots. Particularly veteran Pawnee and Hummingbird pilots in this case. Rather than puffing my chest and talking about how my time investment to reach a certain skill level has tanked, I have to point out again... Misconduct- probably but arguably the best 3rd person view Hummingbird/Pawnee pilot that has been entertaining over 6,000 people using Arma 3's 1.68 helicopter view, is no longer doing so... I can't help but to think that justifies a particular amount of attention and priority, but that's just my opinion... Of course there will be people that like this or that, but I think the amount of time a person invests into your product shows a certain amount of loyalty, and I guess we'll see if that's something Bohemia Interactive values or not... I'm sure many of us would like to know.

I don't know... Did they state that they're actually going to make more adjustments? I'm kinda in a hurry right now otherwise I'd go back and look through the threads, but I thought so far they've only acknowledged that some of us still aren't satisfied and that they're monitoring the feedback. I may have missed something they've said.

Well I disagree with quite a bit of that... Landing people at the edge of the objective is sometimes the most logical thing to do. But many of us pilots are fully capable of regularly landing teammates right in the heart of the action in a place to take cover and typically right behind a structure that other teammates have secure in a strategic location. Not to say that's all a fully capable pilot will do, as the battlefield is constantly evolving, a well seasoned pilot while watching the action from above and listening to the coms, a pilot should often know where inside the hotzone he can get guys in safely... You're opinion about the edge of the AO and paradrops kinda suggests to me that you're not the caliber of pilot that your other comments imply. In a SAM-free environment, the most logical thing to do is NOT fly high and let people parachute out in most cases. Then you have a bunch of teammates floating down to the AO, and if you watch your guys on the minimap, about 1/3 of them will get shot up by people on the ground like injured ducks, and only a couple will likely land near friendlies. At most I find a paradrop useful when the team hasn't really secured any area of the map and awareness of the enemy's locations hasn't yet been established, but even then there's often a better alternative where you can keep 7 guys together rather than putting on a parachute show in the sky. As for recording, I recommend nvidea's shadowplay... Seems to be the most common and if you have Geforce Experience then you already have it. A lot of people don't realize they already have the program. But if you're trying to show that you mastered 3rd person helicopter flying, a paradrop run isn't going to do it... Demonstrate a simple display of abilities. Jump in a heli, bring it up to 230 km/h, and land it as fast as you can once you hit that speed. You'll be much faster at this if you're already at a low altitude so that by the time all the speed is bled off you're already at altitude to set it down, but whatever you're capable of.. Like I said, I just want to see an example of somebody "mastering" this new camera view, as I still maintain that the time since the new camera has been introduced isn't sufficient to have enough experience to claim the skill level of "mastered", and aside from time, I don't think the perspective changes will allow a "master" pilot to perform the way he knows he can. Like I said before, for a pilot that knows what's possible, it's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of what the camera will allow him to carry out with the proper perspective. The decision of how hard to flare and when to begin the flare while approaching a tree line or other obstacle at low altitude is drastically effected by the pilots new perspective. The physics at play during that maneuver are all programmed into the pilots muscle memory and doesn't have to even think about it after a lot of flight hours, but if the perspective changes, all those hours of mental programming gets altered and you should be at a completely different place in your level of abilities. UNLESS, you never reached that point where 99% of the otherwise difficult maneuvers are just muscle memory, I imagine it's easier to go from a mediocre pilot and relearn to be a mediocre pilot, than it would be for a master pilot to regain his previous status after a major change in perspective of flight. A "Master Pilot" has to UNLEARN more than he has to LEARN in a case like this, and it's going to take a hell of a lot longer than the 30 hours you're claiming it took you to "master" the current 3rd person helicopters. Somebody who points out their ability to paradrop people and land them outside of the AO isn't likely to know what I'm talking about...

Talk is cheap. But you're making an important claim. If this new cam can be mastered, that changes my opinion on the update and hotfix and is very relevant... Please post a video of an example of how this camera mode can be mastered... Would be very helpful to the thread. I haven't seen evidence of such potential for this cam. UPDATE: Just saw you added to your comment that you fly a Blackfish... The capabilities that I've been referring to cannot be displayed with a Blackfish I'm sorry, nevermind my previous inquiries about your skills. Completely different piloting scenarios with completely different degrees of problems. If I did paradrops I wouldn't really have any issue with the 1.70 cam at all, but I don't even remember the last time I did a paradrop, they're like watching paint dry to me...

What you call "mastered" and what I call "mastered" is likely quite different... If you practiced it in 30 hours, I can't imagine your flying to the standards anywhere near of what I would call "mastered" which isn't even perfection, but it's held to pretty high standards of capabilities.... Skimming rooftops, hard banks, and avoiding obstacles isn't something justifies the term "mastered" but should be achievable for a somewhat acceptable flight model. Now I'm not trying to harp on you, I have no idea of your capabilities. But I'm taking what I know as enough to doubt that anybody has "mastered" 3rd person helicopters with the current camera. It takes thousands of hours with a good camera (1.68)... 30 hours practicing with a changed shitty camera (1.70) PLUS the additional hurdle of "ULEARNING" your intuition of speed, momentum and many other aspects of flight, it's quite difficult for me to believe anybody mastered it or has even come close in such a short amount of time... A pilot that really pushes his abilities and strives, isn't going to call himself mastered in anything after 30 hours regardless of how much progress he thinks he's made, you can't really even engage in all the potential scenarios in that amount of time, even if it's just mastering the perspective in flight , that's just setting the bar very low... I admit, I started somewhat getting the hang of it, but during many maneuvers I'm extremely familiar with and always comfortable with, there's certain things that should just feel natural and perspective changes that significantly... Like I said in an earlier post, some people who only reached a certain level of potential to where they think they're "good", likely will not have as much difficulty adapting as the people that got anywhere near what would be called "mastered" with the old version would... Let's see a video of these "Awesome flying skills" and what 60yrs of age can do with a game only a few years old... LOL, I really just want to see if anybody is capable of meeting the standards I would need to even put up with the sloppy camera movements in an attempt to carry on with it. Which I'm about 99% sure I'm not going to take part in, as I understand as I'm flying why I need to back off on certain things I would do in the original flight model, I'm compromising in order to maintain stable and controlled flight in a logical way, but not the ideal flight path or maneuver. There's things I should do, but not with the perspective the camera is currently giving me as it wouldn't allow me to see around this or that or whatever in the proper fashion. It's not a skill thing, it's the restriction of using that skill. There will be many times where the original perspective and the new perspective is the difference that effects how you see the scenario and your resulting decision, I argue the original camera allows more benefit in more scenarios than the new camera, which to be fair, may offer an advantage at the occasional moment, but doesn't hold weight to the benefits of the original.

Okay I'll go ahead and say it... Bohemia Interactive- I assume some of you have been on YouTube.com some time in the last year, and by the fact that you're the developers of Arma, that you've stumbled on to Misconducts videos, perhaps you've seen the amount of subscribers he has (6,061 people at the time of this comment)... Regardless of the fact that he clearly demonstrates the awesomeness of our beloved 1.68 camera and how it allows a pilot to fly to his full potential, that's 6,000+ people aside from those voicing themselves in the forum that feel the 1.68 version was more ideal, as those 6,000 people will no longer have that content they subscribed for...

Well said. I 2nd everything in this comment... BI will hopefully realize the effect this change has had on some long term Arma enthusiasts. I've lost a lot of hope in ever being able to enjoy flying in Arma the way I used to. I feel tempted to come to the forum and see the progress, but really don't think a whole lot is being made after every visit. It seems like the issue has been fully brought to BI's attention. In the end, If I'm not flying in the 1.68 view, Arma probably won't even be on my computer anymore within a month from now, as that was the one aspect of the game that had me logging in so many hours for so long...

I have a feeling that most of the people that are claiming to "like" the new 3rd person camera on the helicopters, feel that way simply because they never got anywhere near mastering piloting in 3rd person. In fact they may be grateful, as they'll get more passengers with some of the best pilots gone due to this problem. To say that the KOTH servers are still full and helicopters are still in the air isn't anything to go by in this case. I'd say about 95%-99% of the other people I see flying in KOTH, are really not good enough to where the changes had such a noticeable impact on their abilities. Most KOTH helicopter pilots I see, either go back and forth doing paradrops and land really slow at base, or they "try" to do landings and crash or their final approach takes forever. The pilots that actually get shit done without dropping everybody out of the sky, the ones that go back and forth landing their teammates the whole match without ever having to spawn more than one or 2 helicopters, the ones who's helicopter everybody at base piles into because they know they're going to get to where it matters the most and they're going to get there quick with their team, those are the ones that are being effected... So if you're one of those dudes that does a lot of paradrops, or gets bitched at for your landing attempts, like the large majority of the other KOTH helicopter pilots I've seen through my years, then you're probably going to be content with whatever camera they give you... The good, experienced, seasoned, devoted, serious, and therefor obviously "loyal" Arma 3rd person heli pilots are the ones taking the hit... You'll be left with only slow landings and paradrops in KOTH helicopters unless you get the rare guy with a headtracker that can "properly" do it in 1st person. Whether you think it's a big deal or not isn't really the issue. It's a negative change to the game, games aren't set in stone, so a 3rd person heli revert is in order no matter how you look at it in the best interest of the game, through my logic anyways.... To each their own.

Your cam is dancing for 2 reasons. The new camera setup seems raise and lower the camera view way too much from just the slightest pitch inputs. Even though the heli didn't gain or lose altitude, the camera changed altitudes in direct response to the pitch alone (this is a negative effect after the jets release and not the original behavior)... The second reason, the pilot hasn't figured out how to smooth out his forward motion without constant individual inputs. Slowing down the sensitivity a little bit and keeping a constant forward movement of the mouse should eliminate a lot of that dipping just to maintain smooth forward flight. The small forward pitch inputs while moving forward and maintaining altitude was never really a big deal and more of a preference of the pilot to smooth it out or not, but now that the camera is changing altitude with the pitch of the helicopter, it's quite annoying and gives me motion sickness. Not to mention the altitude of your point of view changing as you pitch the helicopter during landing is constantly messing with your perspective and makes it so much more effort to fly naturally...

Damn RacerX... Now there's a solution! I like your thinking! I'm sure most of the work for re-introducing the jets will remain, and they would just have to determine how to bring them in without effecting the helicopters... I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt that it's a lot easier said than done to make all that happen in a timely manner and still have the Jets they've been working on, I don't disregard that they're trying to improve the game and actually giving us free content, I feel they should still go through with the project, but I think they are undermining how awesome their the 1.68 version helicopter was. It was fantastic.

I can see how some of the changes in the camera can be helpful to jet pilots and vtol pilots. I don't find any good reason to assume that it being good for one aircraft is any indication that it'll good for an aircraft that has completely different flight characteristics and role in scenarios. Unless you're trying to do a tactical landing at T4 with a JET to drop some teammates off, I don't see the difference in satisfaction between different aircraft pilots as something to consider when determining the issue.

I will investigate the controls in the legacy branch this afternoon. I know I'm dealing with some strange pedal action from my mouse movement. But you're right, perhaps the view is just really messing with me. It's just that I notice this the most when I'm almost at a perfect hover and just making small adjustments and the camera isn't really much of a factor at that point, but I'll look into it further. Not to be pushy... But can we get a confirmation that further adjustments will be made to the 3rd person camera? To be honest, I don't have any interest in looking into this controls thing if the 3rd person view isn't going to get some more improvements... I understand completely that getting the FOV right at the right speeds to give proper and intuitive perspective can be a tricky thing to get right, that makes sense and thank you for explaining that much. With all my frustration and confusion regarding the controls, I still need to say that the "zoom" is probably the big priority. But the camera also needs to stay more rigid behind the helicopter during direction changes, and more rigid to the horizon during pitch and altitude changes. There's a strange effect now, where the camera raises in altitude more than it normally would from a slight flare or sudden pitch up or pitch down...

No. The camera was improved a bit, but still crap. Go back and look at the comparison here and my description of the differences. 1.70 version is with the hotfix, 1.68 is before the jets dlc was released.

LOL, Misconduct... You and I have been shooting comments back and forth on youtube "Robert Hance" No need to reply to my last comment on the video, I can see you're still not satisfied like me... Never expected Arma to pull the rug out from under the heli pilots like that. I can't adapt to what they have goin on now. Arma has overcome some hiccups in the past, but this one kinda hit a soft spot for me and they don't seem to really have their hands on it... The "fix" was just a mild version of the same problem.

Okay, aside from the camera disaster... Without question, the left-right movement of the mouse translates to WAY too much yaw/anti-torque/pedal input and I've tried every combination of controls and mouse sensitivities. You can't do a stable manual hover without the nose moving every which direction at the slightest touch of the mouse while in 3rd person. You can't keep it pointed in a certain direction, if you try to pitch and roll out of a hover with the mouse at all, it first gives you a ton of pedal input in the direction you just want to roll and pitch and you just continue yawing beyond what it should... Like there's more pedals in the mouse than ever before... really strange stuff. It's total garbage and I don't think a legit pilot ever tested it in the development stage, no way would this be acceptable to a pilot with considerable experience... Our mouse needs to be like the stick, it can't be giving us a crazy amount of pedal input, it never did before which is why there were never complaints about it before. You took a perfect helicopter experience and turned it into total crap just so you can bring in a few new jets that a very small part of the community actually seems excited about. I think I've hit rock bottom with this botch up.