Oh the poor taleban and al-queda..

[Wobble 1]

hmm.. interesting posts.. terrorists toss grenades into a church and kill a woman and her daughter as well as others.. and you say "well thats what the US gets".. and point out every bad thing the US has ever done EVER.. as some sort of excuse for them.. like it was justified..

then you look at the pitiful sickeing pukes at camp x-ray who were conntected to the biggest terrorists attack in god knows when and coddle them.. saying they "they were just fighting for their country"

well those people in that chruch were just serving their country too.. they werent responsable for ANYTHING.. but I guess that doesent matter.. afterall, their just americans

and how are the prisoners at camp x-ray connected with the ones who did this? they are terrorists or connected to them

and the taleban were not "fighting for their country" they were fighting for Al-queda.. a terrorist organization.. remember Bin-Lande almost dinglehandedly financed the taleban.. they are more or less HIS army.. you fight for a terrorist.. you are no better..

some of you people are just fucking sick.. I hope this thread gets locked and delted because im about to really lose it with some of you motherfuckers...

[nordin dk 0]

To all: Try to imagine that this discussion is not about the US but about pow's or prisoners in general. That way we can keep it clean. It's impossible to discuss general issues in here, either because somebody drags in the US, or because the americans take any comment as an attack on their own person.

"No matter how horrible your crime, you always have human rights."

(and I don't mean a cold Gatorade...)

That's the contested notion. Agree/Disagree. Why/Why not?

I Agree: Because "guilt" and the 'size' of your crime is more often than not a very subjective matter.

As for Capital Punishment: If you decide to kill a criminal, then you commit the same act, that you want to punish him for:

- deciding who get's to live and who get's to die.

So by your own standards, you should be penalised in the same way...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Thehamster @ Mar. 17 2002,23:34)

Quote (nordin dk @ Mar. 17 2002,22:20)

Quote

What good does it do taking a life for another life it does not bring them a dead person back.

Capital punishment is one of the few barbaric parts of society left in the 1st world in the countries where the majority people know no better and are socially backwards.

I agree with you, but I guess you know...

<span id='postcolor'>

Put it this way: A guy rapes and kills a woman. Hes brought to trial and is found guilty. He either gets life in prison, with possible parole (no joke, ppl like this get parole all the time), or he gets sentenced to death by lethal injection.

Without the death penalty, this convict spends the rest of his life living off taxpayers money, with a number of chances to escape or be let out.

If he is put to death by lethal injection, he is subjected to about the most humane and painless way to end a persons life ever devised.

In a perfect world, we wouldnt need the death penalty. But, we dont, and so we need a viable deterrent to keep people from thinking that they can take a life and get free room and board for the rest of their life.

[nordin dk 0]

Put it any way you want...

...it doesn't change anything.

Explain to me the exact border...the split hair where you decide between life or death...

Are you saying that we should have the government kill everybody that are a burden to the taxpayers?

If not, then don't use that reasoning...

What happens if in the nick of time, a private sponsor steps in and buys the convict one more year in prison?

When he stops the payments, has he then 'murdered' the convict?

What happens if the executioner is a maniac and enjoys his work? Should he be held responsible?

How much money is your life worth? 20.000$ ? 50.000$ ??

Give me an exact figure, or stop thinking about lives in that way. How much is your mother/sister/girlfriend's life worth?

100.000$ ?

If somone is sentenced to the deathpenalty, but it turns out he's rich, so he can pay his prisonfare himself, should he be allowed to live?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

you want a definition of the line? here you go:

If you take another human beings life intentionally, you have forfeited your right to live yourself.

The fact that killing these lowlifes saves the taxpayer a few dollars is a side bonus.

[nordin dk 0]

You have defined your moral standards, but not the physical act itself.

How can you be sure that the accused didn't intend it to be a warning shot, but he happened to hit the drugstoreclerk in the head instead?

To give one example...

[nordin dk 0]

You go to a disco, somebody puts something in your drink, it's a really bad trip.

You see someone talking to your gf, and you freak out and strangle him.

Perhaps IRL, you never tried anything stronger than rootbeer, but you

have a lot of aggresion that is suddenly unleashed when you are accidently

inlfluenced by drugs.

And you were so determined, all witnesses agree to that, and you didn't

seem that high...and didn't you know this guy from before...and didn't you used

to joke about that if he touched your gf, you would f*cking kick his ass?

And weren't you arrested once for being in a fight?

etc. etc.

Do you deserve the deathpenalty? That depends only on how

skillfull the prosecutor is.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

thats what a court of law is for: to establish whether or not the killing was intentional. Im not advocating summary executions; any ruling involving the death penalty should not be taken lightly.

[Major Fubar 0]

Capital punishment is a difficult issue, but in the end, I guess I'm for it. But only in cases of horrendous crimes (murder, rape), and where the defendant has been proved guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. How can people not think it's a deterrent?

Also, the death penalty prevents some bleeding-heart appeals tribunal letting out some murderer/child molester before they have even served one third of their sentence.

As for the cost to taxpayers, I think you could recover some of it by liquidating the offenders assets and use that money to compensate the victims and their families, as well as pay for the legal costs.

The only thing I have against the death penalty for those who deserve it is in a way, its an easy option. I'd rather think of some child molestor or serial killer getting gang-raped for the next 50 years or so.

[Pete 1]

reason number 1: we cant determine quilt with 100% accuracy, innocents have died.

if you inprison someone and find out he wasnt the quilty one, you can set him free.....but if you kill him?

and dont say "but only those we are sure about".....all the innocents who died like that had been convicted and seen as quilty, without doubt.....but when later new evidence surfaces....ooops, too late.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

It has never been proven that an innocent man has been put to death. Innocent men have been released from death row, but that only proves that the way we thoroughly and repeatedly review each case prevents a horrible scenario like an innocent man being executed. Go ahead, give me an incident when a man was executed and afterwards was proven innocent.

[Longinius 1]

http://www.gbr.ecadp.org/reports/index.html

The fact is that they don't have to be proven innocent. As long as there is doubt to their guilt, they shouldn't be executed.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 18 2002,01:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hmm.. interesting posts..  terrorists toss grenades into a church and kill a woman and her daughter as well as others.. and you say "well thats what the US gets".. and point out every bad thing the US has ever done EVER.. as some sort of excuse for them.. like it was justified..<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I think you have to be really fucking stupid to go into a church in Pakistan. Doesn't much differ from going out into the fields with a big sign saying 'I'm U.S. so target me'. Mebbe they should have just stayed in their guarded embassy, especially when the natives don't much LOVE the U.S. at the moment.

After all the shit U.S. has pulled recently, however justified (and I'm not saying it's not), the extremist muslims are bound to be a little pissed at the moment. So no point in making yourself an easy target.

[Wobble 1]

Well, I think you have to be really fucking stupid to go into a church in Pakistan

oh so americans shoudlent expect to be able to go to church without fearing death unless they are in america.. thats nice..

After all the shit U.S. has pulled recently, however justified (and I'm not saying it's not), the extremist muslims are bound to be a little pissed at the moment. So no point in making yourself an easy target.

yea, they are innocent, they are just people doing a job to support their family.. but of someone kills them its THEIR fault? they shouldent be there..

let me get this straight..  if someone fights for a terrorist orginazation and gets caught they should be insured all the creature comforts possable because all they were doing was "fighting for their country" (laff).. but if an american gets killed overseas.. well thats their spot for being stupid enough to do something as dumb as.. going to chruch..

people preach and piss and moan about how the al-queda prisoners need their koran, their cold gotorade, thier prayer mats, and their spritual leader..  but if innocent americans get killed overseas.. thats their problem, they shouldent have gone to chruch, they should stay locked up on an embass all the time and if they leave and get killed "oh well"

yea thats fair isnt it.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 18 2002,08:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

"oh so americans shoudlent expect to be able to go to church without fearing death unless they are in america.. thats nice.."

I wasn't saying that. I was saying americans (or people of any nationality to that matter) shouldn't go to churches at the moment in places like Pakistan, Afganistan and such. That's just making yourself a target.

"yea, they are innocent, they are just people doing a job to support their family.. but of someone kills them its THEIR fault? they shouldent be there.."

And I wasn't talking about any FAULTS either. Just that making yourself an easy target is an easy way of getting yourself killed. So the people in the church were indeed as innocent as any average person is. The people who threw grenades into the church were BAD. It was a little stupid to go into a church in Pakistan.

An example: An israeli jew walks alone into the palestinian areas in West Bank and shouts: "You palestinians are just scum. You should all be killed." Promptly some pissed palestinians beat the jew to death. Was it wrong to kill the jew? Yes. Was the jew stupid for doing what he did? Yes.

"people preach and piss and moan about how the al-queda prisoners need their koran, their cold gotorade, thier prayer mats, and their spritual leader.. but if innocent americans get killed overseas.. thats their problem, they shouldent have gone to chruch."

I wasn't saying any of this. See above.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 18 2002,10:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An example: An israeli jew walks alone into the palestinian areas in West Bank and shouts: "You palestinians are just scum. You should all be killed." Promptly some pissed palestinians beat the jew to death. Was it wrong to kill the jew? Yes. Was the jew stupid for doing what he did? Yes.<span id='postcolor'>

Isn't it amazing folks? Now I would have thought that the comparison would have been a Jew simply walking into a Shechem and Nablus,asking where he can buy a good cup of coffee.

But no! Obviously a Jew couldn't refrain him/herself from calling them scum.

Was Oligo stupid for making such a comparison? Yes.

[Wobble 1]

yes, im sure the US staff workers in the church were too buisy screaming about how muslims are all smelly pathetic terrorists to even get around to worshipping..

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 18 2002,09:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

"Isn't it amazing folks? Now I would have thought that the comparison would have been a Jew simply walking into a Shechem and Nablus,asking where he can buy a good cup of coffee. But no! Obviously a Jew couldn't refrain him/herself from calling them scum."

It was a freaking example. I wasn't making any political statements whether jews are calling palestinians scum or not. I was just describing a sure way to get yourself killed... sheesh! I was describing how a REALLY STUPID, hypothetical jew would act.

I could have given other examples also, like a white guy going to Harlem and yelling: "White Power" on the streets. Or some Londoner parading in some volatile Northern Ireland city yelling: "Those IRA blokes are a bunch of wankers."

My examples were extreme just to get my point across. Like, mellow out people...

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 18 2002,09:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes, im sure the US staff workers in the church were too buisy screaming about how muslims are all smelly pathetic terrorists to even get around to worshipping..<span id='postcolor'>

I was giving an extreme example so that you'd get my point, because you failed to get it from the first post.

I mean, come on! If you were a pissed off muslim extremist wanting blood, what would you attack? I'll tell you that an unguarded church sounds very juicy, since you get to attack the people you have targeted AND their religion.

So avoiding churches in Pakistan seems like a good survival tip to me.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 18 2002,10:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was a freaking example. I wasn't making any political statements whether jews are calling palestinians scum or not. I was just describing a sure way to get yourself killed... sheesh! I was describing how a REALLY STUPID, hypothetical jew would act.<span id='postcolor'>

No. I described how real Jews have gotten killed here - for buying coffee at a West Bank restaurant or purchasing fruits and vegetables at an Arab market. About the only words they may have had a chance to say is "please don't".

We haven't had any such "stupid Jews" for the last few months fortunately. Like Pavlov's dog, repeating the punishment about a dozen times gets the lesson through.

Your "freaking example" was downright insulting and completely incomparible with the case at hand, as Wobble also commented on sarcastically. It's not my fault if you're a really stupid goy.

[Longinius 1]

Interesting. Now that Americans died people take notice. The last time christian churches got targeted there I didn't see any posts about it...

Some people died and that is to bad. Whats even worse is that it gets MORE media coverage and becomes MORE important because Americans died. I don't know, but it seems stupid to me. I thought all men were equal...

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 18 2002,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No. I described how real Jews have gotten killed here - for buying coffee at a West Bank restaurant or purchasing fruits and vegetables at an Arab market. About the only words they may have had a chance to say is "please don't".

We haven't had any such "stupid Jews" for the last few months fortunately. Like Pavlov's dog, repeating the punishment about a dozen times gets the lesson through.<span id='postcolor'>

Sigh. Yes, the situation is very very bad in there. But what I'm talking about is the responsibility of everyone of us to avoid obvious threats to our life or get killed. If such deaths like you described indeed happened (coffee purchasing was enough to provoke a killing), they are actually a fine real life example of what I am talking about:

When the first such killing happened, all the sensible people started to avoid doing such things as going to a West Bank coffees shops. When the second and third such incident happened, the slow-headed people started to avoid those places. When the rest of the killings happened, the stupid people started to avoid those places.

The killings were sad, unfortunate and wrong. But the last people to get killed that way were also not very sensible.

In situations where the reason of death was the action of other people, we tend to forget the responsibility of our own life we all have, like avoiding obvious threats. But if somebody drowns in a flooding river while trying to swim across it, we can only blame the stupidity of the swimmer.

Lesson: Stay out of those flooding rivers, enraged mobs and churches in hostile areas. You'll live longer.

[ralphwiggum 6]

yes, also when US does takes some action, so called human rights activist yell at US, but when al-Qaeda takes some action, they STFU

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 18 2002,10:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But if somebody drowns in a flooding river while trying to swim across it, we can only blame the stupidity of the swimmer.<span id='postcolor'>

Well why didn't you say so in the first place?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 18 2002,09:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Interesting. Now that Americans died people take notice. The last time christian churches got targeted there I didn't see any posts about it...

Some people died and that is to bad. Whats even worse is that it gets MORE media coverage and becomes MORE important because Americans died. I don't know, but it seems stupid to me. I thought all men were equal...<span id='postcolor'>

It's just the way world works, mate.

"All men are equal, but some men are more equal than others." -Orwell