Bin Ladin NOT dead

[Longinius 1]

According to Swedish media, the person(s) killed by the Predator attack a few days ago were not Al Quaida members. They were farmers.

The reason the missile was fired was because one of the men was taller than average and had a clear leadership attitude. Jesus christ, every group has a leader. There are many people taller than average. The US gonna kill everyone of them, just in case?

I honestly feel that being above average in length and having a leadership position does not automatically make you Bin Ladin. Or am I wrong? If so, remind me not to sit next to my boss during our future meetings. Who knows WHAT might come flying through the windows...

[Wobble 1]

According to Swedish media, the person(s) killed by the Predator attack a few days ago were not Al Quaida members. They were farmers

B.S.  nobody yet knows exactly who they were, DNA testing is about to be done.

The reason the missile was fired was because one of the men was taller than average and had a clear leadership attitude

they were spotted leaving a cave and the leader was tall and had a beard and fit the exact profile of bin-laden, they were all well armed.

Posture analists of the CIA said the hand gestured and gesticulations of the "leader" very closley mirrored those he would frequentley make in is propagnada videos.

so we have:

A: cave

B: well armed

C: tall- bin laden look alike who acted just like him.

regardless, nobody knows exactley who it was.. including the Swedish media.. you think they have better intellegence than the NATO and US forces who are trying to track him down and that are corrdnating all this stuff??.... you think a single news orginazation has better intel than several world power militaries?

If I remember correctly it was also the Swedish media that *confirmed* that the taleban had shot down 2 US fighter jets..  I think those poor folks are just prinitng every "lead" they get and presenting it as fact.. very irresponsable.

[Longinius 1]

"B.S. nobody yet knows exactly who they were, DNA testing is about to be done."

Well, his name was Mir Ahmad, from the village of Gorboz. Compare "Mir Ahmad" to "Bin Ladin"...doesn't quite match.

"regardless, nobody knows exactley who it was.. including the Swedish media.. you think they have better intellegence than the NATO and US forces who are trying to track him down and that are corrdnating all this stuff??.... you think a single news orginazation has better intel than several world power militaries?"

No, they don't know more than NATO. However, they are more likely to publically announce what they know. And, they are also likely to point out flaws in NATO operations.

"If I remember correctly it was also the Swedish media that *confirmed* that the taleban had shot down 2 US fighter jets.. I think those poor folks are just prinitng every "lead" they get and presenting it as fact.. very irresponsable. "

They never confirmed, they reported sources from Afghanistan had claimed this to happen. CNN has published / acted on information that contained errors, as has NATO. As has CIA, as has US military intelligence.

[Rogue2020 0]

Well here's a little fact...with today's humanity you cannot have peace unless you wipe out your enemy.......I just hate the whole brain washing thing....the US has been fucking them over for years..of course they hate us and have good reason for attacking us but nope they are trying to make it look like it was an un provoked attack just for the sole purpose to kill people.......

[Wobble 1]

so.. let me get this straight..  supposidly the Sweeds not only know it was farmers.. but they know the name of the tallest one?

this gets better and better...

its funny how the guys were so blown to bits that only remains were recovered and need to be tested to figure it out the identy of them.. yet the sweeds already know exactly who it was...  yeeaaa    what did they do go to the village "gorbaz" which was probably the nearest one to the CAVE these people were seen coming out of. and ask "is anyone missing" and they said "yea a tall guy named Mir".. and assume that was the guy that was blown up??

thats just as bad as assuming it was bin-laden becasue he was tall.

the facts remain..  they were well armed and leaving a cave complex that NATO knew had or was being used by al-queda..

if it was indeed "Mir Ahmed" then was was no farmer... at least.. that wasnt his only occupation.

P.S. you got a link to this story?

the US has been fucking them over for years

how? by spending millions of dollars like the reast of the civilzed world for the aid orginizations to help them?

of course they hate us and have good reason for attacking us

yea, Sept 11.. those men women and children civilians got what was coming to them didnt they...

[Longinius 1]

Link:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,131017,00.html

Original Source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60213-2002Feb11.html

"so.. let me get this straight..  supposidly the Sweeds not only know it was farmers.. but they know the name of the tallest one?"

Even the Afghani people have relatives, family and friends. Even they miss their own when they get killed. Why wouldn't an Afghani wife know when her husband was blown to bits, for example.

"its funny how the guys were so blown to bits that only remains were recovered and need to be tested to figure it out the identy of them.."

Noone said they were tested to figure out who they were. They are to be tested to CONFIRM who they were. As in, compare to other known DNA examples to find a match. Just in case.

"yeeaaa     what did they do go to the village "gorbaz" which was probably the nearest one to the CAVE these people were seen coming out of. and ask "is anyone missing" and they said "yea a tall guy named Mir".. and assume that was the guy that was blown up??"

I don't know, I wasn't there. But why wouldn't that work?

"the facts remain..  they were well armed and leaving a cave complex that NATO knew had or was being used by al-queda.."

Define well armed.

"if it was indeed "Mir Ahmed" then was was no farmer... at least.. that wasnt his only occupation."

Why not?

[Wobble 1]

Even the Afghani people have relatives, family and friends. Even they miss their own when they get killed. Why wouldn't an Afghani wife know when her husband was blown to bits, for example.

and people have been disapperaing, getting blown to bits and attacked there for many many years.. were these people who said it was them actually SEE them get blown up.. or did they just leave and never come back?? for that is not uncommin at all there..

Noone said they were tested to figure out who they were. They are to be tested to CONFIRM who they were. As in, compare to other known DNA examples to find a match. Just in case.

seeing as how the word "remains" was used insted of bodies would kinda makes me thinkt they were pretty messed up.. plus considering they were a group of people hit by a hellfire missle.. hellfires are made to kill tanks... quite a big bang.. and are very accurate.. it probably exploded right at their feet.

I don't know, I wasn't there. But why wouldn't that work?

because sadley in that part of the world people die everyday for a variety of reasons..

Define well armed.

all carrying guns.. hell I dunno.. well armed is differednt people.. but you dont need a rifle to work a crop.

Why not?

well.. do people farm in al-queda cave complexes these days?

there is more reason to believe they were al-queda/taleban than to not to.. they were armed, and they were leaving a place known to inhabited by taleban and al-queda..

if indeed they were farmers.. they sure went out of their way to appear they werent..

remember its not like they were flying that dron and said "wow.. there are people, shoot them"

that thing was sent out for a reason.. somebody know there was somebody of military value and sent that thing over there.. predators dont just wander around aimlessley....

so they probably got intel.. and then these guys that matched what the intel said came out of a cave that the intel said had alqueda/taleban in it.. they watched these people long enough for people to analize their gestures and how they acted, the built up a profile and compared it to Bin-laden and THEN fired..

they did alot of homework before deciding to fire..

also you say so what if they had guns.. thats my point.. thats a dangerous place over there.. people get shot every day.. bad shit happens ALOT.. so just because the US is somewhere in your country and your husband/broter.. whatever vanishes.. doesent mean the US killed him.

and that website looks more like a magazine than a news orginization.

[Longinius 1]

Wobble, check the link to the washingtonpost I edited in.

"and people have been disapperaing, getting blown to bits and attacked there for many many years.. were these people who said it was them actually SEE them get blown up.. or did they just leave and never come back?? for that is not uncommin at all there.."

They retrieved the bodies and buried them.

"seeing as how the word "remains" was used insted of bodies would kinda makes me thinkt they were pretty messed up.. plus considering they were a group of people hit by a hellfire missle.. hellfires are made to kill tanks... quite a big bang.. and are very accurate.. it probably exploded right at their feet."

They retrieved the bodies and buried them.

"all carrying guns.. hell I dunno.. well armed is differednt people.. but you dont need a rifle to work a crop."

Nearly every man in afghanistan owns a weapon. They are probably carrying it with them as soon as they leave their village.

"well.. do people farm in al-queda cave complexes these days"

No, but they DO gather scrap metal which aparantly sells for a good price.

"there is more reason to believe they were al-queda/taleban than to not to.. they were armed, and they were leaving a place known to inhabited by taleban and al-queda..."

So?

"if indeed they were farmers.. they sure went out of their way to appear they werent.."

I disagree. They were dressed as always, doing their work, as always.

"that thing was sent out for a reason.. somebody know there was somebody of military value and sent that thing over there.. predators dont just wander around aimlessley...."

No, they patrol. They patrol suspected areas. But not everyone in a suspected area is a terrorist. Or maybe they are, according to some.

"so they probably got intel.. and then these guys that matched what the intel said came out of a cave that the intel said had alqueda/taleban in it.. they watched these people long enough for people to analize their gestures and how they acted, the built up a profile and compared it to Bin-laden and THEN fired.."

Doubtful. I think they saw an opportunity to MAYBE kill an Al Qaida leader and they took it. Taking time to analyze and compare would have allowed whoever it was to get away.

"they did alot of homework before deciding to fire.. "

How do YOU know that? Because they said so? Please, what should they say?

"also you say so what if they had guns.. thats my point.. thats a dangerous place over there.. people get shot every day.. bad shit happens ALOT.. so just because the US is somewhere in your country and your husband/broter.. whatever vanishes.. doesent mean the US killed him."

No, but when someone sees it and you find the body, its a pretty good indication.

"and that website looks more like a magazine than a news orginization. "

Might be because it is the website of a news magazine...

[Wobble 1]

shit, bin-laden is 6 foot 5.. dam.. he IS tall.

the article says that SEVERAL soruces are claming to know who the men are... and they all say they are different..  I guess it would make them heros to be killed by the big bad US insted of the normal riffraff thugs that kill most people there...

it also says that members of this village clamed they went and got the bodies. yet NATO went and colleted them to do  the testing to see who exctley they are.. so.. its all a matter of who to beleive... a few pissed off villagers or NATO.

also from what I gater some people have taken up living in the buildings of the former terrorist camp nearby.. that is VERY stupid.

that entire article is based on 2 people from some village who clame the US is bombing their houses...  which is quite funny in and of itself

you want to believe them fine, I choose to believe what NATO and the scientists say.... which is "we dont know who they are but we are 99% sure they were alqueda and or Taleban"

I love how they always so "the US" when Great Britian and several countries are ALL flying missions over there..

international intellegence sources said it was taleban and so they were attacked... so if you really believe that innocent people were killed.. then it wasnt just the US who killed them... as ghastley as that must be to some people around here.. its not only the US who makes mistakes

[Longinius 1]

Well, this WAS the US. And there were more then two people who talked to the journalists

The villagers collected the bodies. The US collected the remains. That might be why the US have to do DNA tests. They only have a few lumps of flesh, an arm and half an eye.

Living in Al Qaida buildings is not smart however, I agree on that. But, stupidity is not a crime with the death penalty sentence.

[Wobble 1]

Well, this WAS the US

It was a US aircraft.. but the decision to strike was an international one, the data of who these people were (or supposidly were) came from lots of sources

The villagers collected the bodies. The US collected the remains.

when a fairley large anti-tank missle explodes at your feet.. you dont have bodies.. you have chunks

Living in Al Qaida buildings is not smart however, I agree on that. But, stupidity is not a crime with the death penalty sentence.

of course.. but when you do something like that and end up getting mistaken and killed its YOUR fault.

It wouldent suprise me if mir and his buddies stepped on a landmine and got killed (hell the whole area is littered with them)...  think about it..  the villagers say THEY have the bodies.. yet NATO says they have the remains..

the villagers say one of the people was all blown up and that one looked like he had lived a while.. yet NATO says they were blown to smitherenes and remains were all that was left..

it makes much sense that reporters in the area heard of this guy and his buddies that were "blown up" and naturally tied it to the headline story of the guys being attacked with the hellfire.. the timline is pretty close to the same.. so they figure these guys are the same ones that NATO bombed..

the villagers themselves say the guy WAS NOT tall and looked nothing Like bin-laden.

also remember that the place is near that terrorist camp.. the back when USSR was there the camps were ringed with mines to proven soviet ground forces from raiding them

it all makes alot more sense than the US blowing up a buch of farmers just becasue one of them was tall.

it wouldent be the first time 2 different stories got twisted into one like that.. its actually very commin..

just like those 4 people who were killed in NY the same day of the WTC attack.. nobody knew what happened to them.. couldent find them, so they were added to the list of teh WTC victims

[Longinius 1]

"It wouldent suprise me if mir and his buddies stepped on a landmine and got killed (hell the whole area is littered with them)... think about it.. the villagers say THEY have the bodies.. yet NATO says they have the remains.."

If the villagers took the bodies, all that NATO would have would be remains.

"the villagers say one of the people was all blown up and that one looked like he had lived a while.. yet NATO says they were blown to smitherenes and remains were all that was left.."

Yes, but NATO would not really know that. They did not get there until much, much later. Yes, they saw through surveillance equipment, but two bodies blown to bits and one guy possibly alive...they might easily have discarded him as dead.

"the villagers themselves say the guy WAS NOT tall and looked nothing Like bin-laden."

One was a bit taller than the other two. By definition, making him of above average length.

"also remember that the place is near that terrorist camp.. the back when USSR was there the camps were ringed with mines to proven soviet ground forces from raiding them

it all makes alot more sense than the US blowing up a buch of farmers just becasue one of them was tall. "

I disagree. These guys had lived there for a long time, they had grown up there. They would know where the russian mine fields were. Al Qaida would also have marked or removed much of the mines. There would be safe trails to travel. I also doubt a mine would take out all three at once like that.

It is quite unlikely that they step on a mine at the same time as the US attack a bunch of people in the neighbourhood.

Why can't you ever admit that the US and or Nato occasionally fuck up Wobble? They do that you know. They are not perfect. They do shitty things sometimes. They mess up. They do things that are pretty stupid. Deal with it, it happens.

NATO is not the worlds Messia. USA is not our God. They are organisations and groups of men, and those men are like every other man on the earth.

[Wobble 1]

If the villagers took the bodies, all that NATO would have would be remains

I see your logic.. but I just get past 1 thing.. and that is the Hellfire missle... it was fired right into the group of them..  thats a MASSIVE explosion... I dont see how anyone could have one of those hit right next to them and be in one piece.. much less live any amount of time..  a hellfires are about 2 meters long.. they are a BIG missle.. they are not some little rocket or anything... they produce a very powerful and large explosion..

Yes, but NATO would not really know that. They did not get there until much, much later. Yes, they saw through surveillance equipment, but two bodies blown to bits and one guy possibly alive...they might easily have discarded him as dead.

they didnt say body and remains.. they said remains.. and since the missle was fired right into the middle of them.. if 2 were blown all to hell it seems that the 3rd would aswell.. ya never know. one person could be left intact.. but thats by far the exception and not the rule.... like I said before a 6 foot missle exploding right next to you... chunks.

was a bit taller than the other two. By definition, making him of above average length

6 foot 5 is not "above avarage length" that is REALLY TALL!  most NBA players are not that tall.. you see someone who is a little taller than the rest is one thing... but 6 foot 5 especially compared to the rest who as I understand avarage around 5 foot 9 is a VERY VERY big difference... he probably looked like a giant compared to the rest...

These guys had lived there for a long time, they had grown up there. They would know where the russian mine fields were

you would think so, but thousands of people a year die from landmines in places like afganistan.. they can get moved around with shifting debris/sand.. etc.. most are only buried just below ground..

It is quite unlikely that they step on a mine at the same time as the US attack a bunch of people in the neighbourhood.

give me a bit to look up exactly where this village is compared to where the NATO attack too place.. I have no clue where either is.

Why can't you ever admit that the US and or Nato occasionally fuck up Wobble?

I have no trouble with that.. its the the whole "the US fucked up" shit that bothers me.. this is an international alliance (NATO)..  yet when something goes wrong everyone acts as if the US was the only person there and was the only mil that screwed up..  THATS what bothers me...  its a no-brainer that in any military operation mistakes are made.. shit happens.. its part of what makes a war war...  but so many people see to exclusivly point out the US whenever something goes wrong..

case in point.. it was a US aircraft.. but the intel and lots of other stuff that had to do with the attack were international..

yet now that there is a chance that something went wrong everyone is pointing at the US... but if indeed things go right it will be NATO.. not US.. but if it goes wrong its US.. see what im saying.

USA is not our God.

nor is it the devil.. try telling +THAT to some people.

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">stupidity is not a crime with the death penalty sentence.<span id='postcolor'>

it is in a war zone.

[Wobble 1]

ok im looking at this gian ass map for afghanistan trying to find that town

ADDED: ok I guess gorboz inst big enough to be on the map.. anyone know what larger city it is near..

[Wobble 1]

ok, ok I found gorboz..

[Wobble 1]

ok,  here is gorboz.. where the 3 people were "blown up" according to the villagers.

http://maps.fallingrain.com/perl....0&y=360

and here is Zhawar.. where NATO hit the group of men..

http://maps.fallingrain.com/perl....0&y=360

based on the scale relief map, the two are between 90 and 110 miles apart...

so either the villagers walked that far to get the bodies within a few hours.(as they say they did).. or they are different people.

like I said.. the people that died in gorboz and the people NATO hit are probably not the same.

how would these villagers know if something that hit these people was US? i tcould be a mine, a mortar fired from someone, lots of things.  just because the 2 events happened at near the same time doesent mean they are the same event..

the whole reason they farmers would carry a gun (if they were farmers) would be from protection.. like I said... that places is dangerous.. and I dont mean from the US.

They would take the metal by camelback on a five-hour trek up steep mountain trails, avoiding Pakistani security forces, and into the Pakistani town of Miram Shah

Miram Shah is pretty much due east from just over the border gorboz is around 50 miles from the afghanistan/pakistan border..  khawar is AT LEAST 1.75times  that (from the part of pakistan miram shah is that is)...  traveling by camel or on foot would be impossable to do in just 5 hourse from the zhawar area.. but not as far fetched from the goroz area.. further indication that the men that NATO hit were not the 3 men the villagers are talking about who would take scrap medal to pakistan..

the more you look at it the more it seems 2 different events have been taken as 1.

some people on this board should take note of Longinius and I having this discussion.  THIS is how you have a civilized argument.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Wow first Longinius almost had me convinced , now wobble almost has me convinced....

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

and for once i agree with wobble, very civilised. Not a flame in sight

[Wobble 1]

damn, doublepost crack baby, see below

[Wobble 1]

well ALMOST convinced is as convinced as anyone should be anyway.. none of us will ever know what REALLY happened for a while anyway..

even my own argument (see last 2 pages) doesent mean I believe thats what happened.. its just my educated guess as to what happened.

[Longinius 1]

Looking at the map it does seem quite odd. But it is not impossible that it has happened (we might have flawed facts on the matter, making it hard to determine exact times and distances). I guess time will tell what really happened.

[Damage Inc 0]

I have proof that an American soldier shot Bin Laden on Malden.

[SpaceAlex 0]

Stop already with that Bin Laden

[Damage Inc 0]

Why? I like that picture.