The Middle East part 2

[shinRaiden 0]

This presumes that:

a) there was a viable peace process up until the fall of 2000

b) that Yassin was actually an important facilitator in the peace process, not the "Peace Process".

c) others will continue to shake their fists at Israeli helicopters in public

d) Arafat won't cut the rug out from them to retake Gaza.

Give it a couple months, this will be old news. If Rantissi manages to rally the troops, it remains to be seen what condition, if any, Hamas will continue to exist in.

[Bernadotte 0]

Bernadotte, what is the manner in which 90-95% of Palistinian sucides are offing themselves...

Pills?  Hanging?  Jumping from bridges?  Waving their fists at apache gunships?  I'm sure I don't no.

...and where did you get that information from?

Suicide rate stats can be found here.

[miles teg 1]

Bernadotte, what is the manner in which 90-95% of Palistinian sucides are offing themselves...

Pills?  Hanging?  Jumping from bridges?  Waving their fists at apache gunships?  I'm sure I don't no.

...and where did you get that information from?

Suicide rate stats can be found here.

I just checked that page out and I couldn't find a suicide rate for the Gaza strip or the West Bank. Were you looking at the Israeli suicide rate perhaps?

If so then that doesn't include the Gaza strip or the West Bank.

I have yet to see any data showing a relationship between suicide bombers and mental illness or clinical depression.

True, they may suffer from enviornmental stresses that can cause situational depression (due to prolonged periods of stress). That I can agree on. Apparently also that kid they caught with the bomb strapped to his chest suffered from a mental disability. The really sad thing was that in the interview with his brother, the brother seemed almost jealous that they selected his retarded brother as a bomber and not him. He wasn't mad because they took advantage of his retarded brother, he was mad because he thought the bomb makers were stupid for using his brother because he would spill the beans if caught.

What the Palistinians are suffering from goes way beyond mental illness. The vast majority of Palistinians seem to now believe in the cult of the martyr where they sincerely believe that killing Israeli civilians is the best way to fight and gain entrance into heaven.

It sounds crazy, but its just good marketing by the wacko Imams (like the one they assassinated) who prepetuated that twisted version of Islam.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Certa 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ah, legitimate attacks are sooo 90's.

The feminists in Sweden call this: Härskarteknik (power tactics) of; förlöjligande = degrading/dismissing.

:-D

(Only for Peoaple who can read Swedish)

[Bernadotte 0]

If so then that doesn't include the Gaza strip or the West Bank.

Why not?

The vast majority of Palistinians seem to now believe in the cult of the martyr where they sincerely believe that killing Israeli civilians is the best way to fight and gain entrance into heaven.

Vast majority?  Where are you getting your info from?  I hope your not just pulling it out of your <s>ass</s> head.

[miles teg 1]

Ok... here ya go.

A majority of Palestinian public (64%) still support the continuation of suicide (martyrdom) operations inside Israel compared with 68.6% in June 2001.  

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2001/no43.htm

You will notice that this website also goes into great depth on how the study was conducted unlike the site you posted that has no such information.

As for as how I know the part on Israel didn't include the West Bank and the Gaza strip, well it's quite elementary my dear Watson... if you actually READ the entire page, there is something called a MAP that clearly shows that they exclude the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  If you were not in such a rush to find any numbers that prove your ideas you might notice this.

So please don't use statistics unless you know what the hell you are talking about especially when it comes to the topic of suicide in the Palistinian territories which you can define in ways that may not necessarily reflect the same type of suicidal tendencies commonly associated with suicidal acts in most Western societies.

When you throw in religion into some of these acts (I'm talking about the suicide bombers) the factors that cause these acts *may* be quite different in at least some cases.

Whatever the case, while there may be a epidemic of depression in these territories I have yet to find any information on any studies linking depression, anxiety, dispair, ect... to suicide bombers.  This may be because the way in which the depression is expressed is ways that do not match the definition of depression in the DSM-IV (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, published by the American Psychiatric Association, 1994.)

The DSM-IV is pretty much universally accepted in the fields of sociology and psychology but it is far from perfect and often is misused due to a lack of case history information or lack of cultural knowledge in cross-cultural studies.

This is a big problem in cross-cultural psychology and is something that the APA has not addressed properly because there is simply too little research in these areas. and the field of psychology is basically still in its infancy.  

The statics I used also did not state exactly what I said.

However much of my information also comes from American Palistinians and humanitarian aid workers who I've talked to and who have actually been there.  

So if you'd like to call all of that (including the stats) as something that I pulled out of my ass then ok go ahead.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

Miles Teg, your claiming that "the vast majority of Palistinians seem to now believe in the cult of the martyr" on the basis of a survey conducted in December 2001 is quite irresponsible.  ...Don't you think?

As for as how I know the part on Israel didn't include the West Bank and the Gaza strip, well it's quite elementary my dear Watson... if you actually READ the entire page, there is something called a MAP that clearly shows that they exclude the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  If you were not in such a rush to find any numbers that prove your ideas you might notice this.

http://www.nationmaster.com/images/maps/is-map.gif

So please don't use statistics unless you know what the hell you are talking about especially when it comes to the topic of suicide in the Palistinian territories...

Do you honestly believe that the annual suicide rate in the territories is likely to be less than the Israeli figure of 11 males per 100,000?  If so, how could you reach such a conclusion?  If not, then what is the point of criticising the survey area for excluding the territories?  A higher rate only reinforces the comment I was making.

If a few million males produce a hundred or so suicide bombers over a 3.5 year period it still results in an annual rate of around 1 bomber per 100,000.  I was merely adding that if Palestinian males commit suicide, for whatever reason, at an annual rate of (at least) 11 per 100,000 then that means that at least 90% of Palestinians commiting suicide are not taking Israelis with them.  You seem to be having some trouble dealing with this?

I have yet to find any information on any studies linking depression, anxiety, dispair, ect... to suicide bombers.

So what?  Have you seen any studies that state the contrary?  In fact, have you seen any studies of suicide bomber mentality at all?

An Israeli author of a book on suicide bombers stated on the BBC World Service that Palestinian suicide bombers were nearly always very troubled individuals who would likely have attempted suicide, in any case.  Contrary to what you seem to think, this was not a personal opinion that I fabricated.  I'd prefer to keep personal views out of this discussion and focus on what so-called experts are reporting.  So, I'd be glad to look into any studies you may know of that have attempted to reach conclusions about this subject.

In other words, I'm much more interested in the opinions you may pull out of experts' asses rather than your own.  

[Bernadotte 0]

As for as how I know the part on Israel didn't include the West Bank and the Gaza strip, well it's quite elementary my dear Watson... if you actually READ the entire page, there is something called a MAP that clearly shows that they exclude the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  If you were not in such a rush to find any numbers that prove your ideas you might notice this.

Btw, the Israel map used by that site comes from the CIA Factbook, however the suicide rate stats come from the World Health Organisation.  What makes you think that WHO defines Israel's borders as the CIA does and not as Israel does?

[Balschoiw 0]

Sharon 'should face bribery charges'

Quote[/b] ]PROSECUTORS investigating bribery allegations against Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon have recommended he faces criminal charges, it was claimed last night.

Whoopsi !

Quote[/b] ]Israel’s state prosecutor has recommended charges against Sharon for allegedly taking bribes from a local businessman, the country’s Channel Two television station reported.

State attorney Edna Arbel is said to have concluded there are sufficient grounds to charge Sharon, 75, who has denied any wrongdoing.

The focus of the scandal is the so-called ‘Greek Island Affair’, in which businessman David Appel allegedly paid Sharon’s son Gilad hundreds of thousands of dollars so Sharon, then foreign minister, would use his influence to help Appel promote a tourism project in Greece in 1999.

Quote[/b] ]The final decision whether to press charges against the prime minister rests with Mazuz, and is expected to take around a month. The TV report said prosecutors regarded the evidence in the "Greek island affair" as open to different interpretations. But Arbel felt that on balance an indictment should be presented, the report added.

Sharon has denied wrongdoing, rejected opposition calls for his resignation and said he will stay in office until the next elections in 2007.

If indicted, legal precedent says Sharon would have to suspend himself from office until the end of proceedings and analysts say he will almost certainly have to quit.

Time for a change, isn´t it

[Apollo 0]

Sharon may leave however Likoed will stay in power. (atleast until new ellections) Given the background of their tradional supporters base , doubt that Israel's policy or leniecy to Palestine will be altered much.

I read a profile on Wikipedia on Ahmed Yassin a week ago. (just after he was eliminated by Idf)

I found the background of his early life interresting in perspective to the conflict and the origin of Palestine terrorism.

let me Quote Wikipedia:

Quote[/b] ]Yassin was born near the town of Ashkelon. His date of birth is not known for certain: according to his Palestinian passport, he was born on January 1, 1929, but he claimed to have actually been born in 1938. He and his family moved to Gaza after his village was destroyed in 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

It's not uncomman for a Palestinian terrorist to have a history of being displaced of their original living area By isreal and maybe of having resided in Refugee camps.

Clearly it can be understood that people displaced from their original home area sometimes having lost about all they had would have more reason to hate israeli than those Palestinian's still having a fairly moderate and stable living condition somewhere deep into the West bank away from isreali senntlements ,and it would be easier for those Palestinians that have lost all hope to commit themselfs to suicide attack's than those that have a stable life with relative fullfilling expectations.

Suicide is far from uncomman in the world ,the number's in Europe or America where the life standard is of the highest in the world are still quite high.But their are also a lot of people who live on the edge of suicide ,some of them wouldn't commit suicide just because they would see it as pointless.Muslim fundamentalism offers the most mentally fullfilling form of suicide ,amrtyrdom would mean that as an hero he would have an eternal wonderfull afterlife ,this form of suecide attracts those that would do it and a number of those that are doubting to.Add to the mix that the target of the suicide attack could be an abbrevation of that what has made youre life meaningless and hopeless then it's not all that hard to understand how groups like Hamas reach such reasonable member pool's.

As such ,the Palestinian refugee camps are often vistited by Israeli armored brigade's to do some cleaning of terrorists ,obviously they see the refugee's as a threat to their security ,though understandable most of those refugee's hate Isreali's gut.

The Israeli security fence is claimed to be build for efficiantly combatting terrorism ,however it has already displaced or cut of Palestinian towns inside West bank territory in favor of Israeli settlements.I'm shure that this wall will create more terrorism than it will eb able to effeciantly combat.

[miles teg 1]

Miles Teg, your claiming that "the vast majority of Palistinians seem to now believe in the cult of the martyr" on the basis of a survey conducted in December 2001 is quite irresponsible.  ...Don't you think?

As for as how I know the part on Israel didn't include the West Bank and the Gaza strip, well it's quite elementary my dear Watson... if you actually READ the entire page, there is something called a MAP that clearly shows that they exclude the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  If you were not in such a rush to find any numbers that prove your ideas you might notice this.

http://www.nationmaster.com/images/maps/is-map.gif

So please don't use statistics unless you know what the hell you are talking about especially when it comes to the topic of suicide in the Palistinian territories...

Do you honestly believe that the annual suicide rate in the territories is likely to be less than the Israeli figure of 11 males per 100,000?  If so, how could you reach such a conclusion?  If not, then what is the point of criticising the survey area for excluding the territories?  A higher rate only reinforces the comment I was making.

If a few million males produce a hundred or so suicide bombers over a 3.5 year period it still results in an annual rate of around 1 bomber per 100,000.  I was merely adding that if Palestinian males commit suicide, for whatever reason, at an annual rate of (at least) 11 per 100,000 then that means that at least 90% of Palestinians commiting suicide are not taking Israelis with them.  You seem to be having some trouble dealing with this?

I have yet to find any information on any studies linking depression, anxiety, dispair, ect... to suicide bombers.

So what?  Have you seen any studies that state the contrary?  In fact, have you seen any studies of suicide bomber mentality at all?

An Israeli author of a book on suicide bombers stated on the BBC World Service that Palestinian suicide bombers were nearly always very troubled individuals who would likely have attempted suicide, in any case.  Contrary to what you seem to think, this was not a personal opinion that I fabricated.  I'd prefer to keep personal views out of this discussion and focus on what so-called experts are reporting.  So, I'd be glad to look into any studies you may know of that have attempted to reach conclusions about this subject.

In other words, I'm much more interested in the opinions you may pull out of experts' asses rather than your own.  

Again you are not making a very strong arguement as you are still insisting that the stats are talking about Israel and including the Gaza strip and the West Bank.  Provide some information showing that this is what the WHO is doing in their stats and your arguement would be a little stronger.

But even then there would be nothing dividing the Palistinian and Israeli population when in fact the statics are likely to be quite different for both populations.  

If in fact most of the Palistinians committing suicide are NOT taking Israelies with them, then it could be argued that in fact suicide bombers are NOT suicidal in the classic definition of being suicidal.   There must be some other factors that may be influencing them to try and kill Israelies as well when they commit suicide.  Most of the interviews that I have seen of suicide bombers before their deaths and of captured suicide bombers who weren't able to blow themselves up depict individuals who are 100% sure that they will go to heaven and into a paradise as a reward for their sacrifice.  This is far different then the mentality of most suicidal americans for example, who tend to not care about what happens to themselves when they die and just want an end to the intense emotional pain they are feeling.

Right now you are simply making alot of assumptions without backing them up with data other then talking about that BBC article which I would be happy to read.

But please don't try and defend your misuse or misunderstanding of statistics unless you just want to keep digging your hole a little deeper.

Also if you read what I posted you would see that I DO NOT base my statement solely on those statistics but also on talking to Palistinians and aid workers who have been there.  It is possible that that information is skewed due to the biases of those individuals so certainly I may be incorrect.  

But the statics I quoted tends to lend some strength to my belief which was why I quoted it.  I did not get my belief from those stats.  You should know by now that I am very wary of basing any belief upon only statistics.  Statistics are NOT truth by any means and can often be very misleading depending on how the information was gathered and how the data was analyzed.

From what I know of Palistinians and the Palistinian territories there is little doubt in my mind that they face a VERY serious problem of having the concept of martyrdom (by suicide) ingrained within their culture and in even their schools.

This is not something to ignore.  This is VERY VERY dangerous because once these ideas are ingrained into the culture it makes them VERY difficult to remove.  That is why I also can understand perfectly well why so many Israelies are in mortal fear of the Palistinians and why they see them as animals.  But I can understand (to some degree at least) why the Palistinans have such extreme hatred for Israelies due to the daily humiliation and the extreme levels of hatred and anger that the Israelies have fostered in the Palistinian people by their oppression of them.  

This stuff isn't rocket science.  It just requires the ability to try and open your heart and mind and to not only look at all the factors in the conflict, but also how the conflict is percieved by different groups on both sides of the conflict.

Very few people seem interested in doing this which is why I get attacked by both sides of this issue for being too "pro Israeli" or too "pro Palistinian".  

The longer people believe that you must take sides, the longer these types of conflict will continue in this world.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

Again you are not making a very strong arguement as you are still insisting that the stats are talking about Israel and including the Gaza strip and the West Bank.

Please show me where I've insisted that the stats include the WB and Gaza.  In fact, I've suggested that the question is totally irrelevant as long as one believes Israel's suicide rate to be lower than that of the territories.

I'd also appreciate it if you would state what it is you believe I am arguing because you quite honestly don't seem to have any clue about what I've been trying to express.  And you might even consider answering some of my questions.

[miles teg 1]

Funneh... I thought I did answer your questions. As how I got my idea about what your were saying well you did say this:

Btw, the Israel map used by that site comes from the CIA Factbook, however the suicide rate stats come from the World Health Organisation. What makes you think that WHO defines Israel's borders as the CIA does and not as Israel does?

If I misunderstood what you were trying to say then my apologies.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

Anti-nuke sympathisers, mark your calendars.  Mordechai Vanunu will be released from an Isreali prison on 21 April, just 3 weeks from today.

Who's Mordechai Vanunu?

He's the guy who blew the whistle on Israel's top secret nuclear weapons program in the mid-80s.  So top secret that Israel's parliament didn't even know about it.  Of course, he didn't reveal all until he was safe in Europe.  What he didn't expect was that Israel's secret service would successfully locate, drug and kidnap him back to Israel where he'd spend the next 12 years of an 18 year prison sentence in solitary confinement.  For all the sordid details I recommend this recent report.

Google News only returns about 80 hits right now, but this should increase dramatically as celebrities and activists prepare to celebrate his release.

Perhaps the most enduring image of him was this one, taken during his trial when he managed to reveal details of his kidnapping.

[denoir 0]

228 hits now

[Tex -USMC- 0]

What he didn't expect was that Israel's secret service would successfully locate, drug and kidnap him back to Israel where he'd spend the next 12 years of an 18 year prison sentence in solitary confinement.

That'll learn 'im

[shinRaiden 0]

jpost editorial here

Very good editorial there. Setting all other newquelar debates aside, I'm interested in his motivations for running around saying "we've got the bomb". It reads to me like he's a general no-nuk guy, and was double upset over the coverups. That's some serious sticking the neck out, and here in the US you'd be entertaining visions of black helicopters or worse.

The psycho-ology of nuc blackmail politics is the old bogey cloud, and it actually gets played up far more than it is actually a threat. The political bogeymonster is far greater than the actually likely strategic or tactical advantage, however, the political side is like mega-crack for those who think they push the button. Saddam had to build a leakly shell in the 80's, and Israel took it serious enough to risk blowing up the ME to take it out, because they knew that all Saddam had to do was play a shell game on TV, and you'd never know until the flash whether he was bluffing, or if there was an ace in the hand.

It's like poker, you're supposed to bluff your way back and forth, except the stakes are worse than russian roulette here. So you go the 'illegal' route, stick a gun to his head and demand that he lay his cards face down on the table, step back, and spread 'em. If he only has random low cards, slipped in the rule blank, or jokers, you look stupid, and you have to shuffle the deck before the sherrif rolls in with the posse, unless you've packed the bar with your posse first. In any rate, things get real exciting, real fast, as the stake to the motherlode swings on who draws first with the bigger barrel.

"Hey Hoss, we got'cha corner'd! ya'll be out of bullets in yer revolver!"

"Ha! it's a six-shooter Black bart! yer count'd one short! BLAM!"

[Bernadotte 0]

Setting all other newquelar debates aside, I'm interested in his motivations for running around saying "we've got the bomb". It reads to me like he's a general no-nuk guy, and was double upset over the coverups.

According to the article I linked to, he adopted a no-nukes stance after leaving Israel and also needed the money.  He was to get about $100,000 for the publishing rights to his story.

I also think back to what Dr Strangelove said in Stanley Kubrick's film:  What's the use of making a doomsday device if you keep it a secret?

[Bernadotte 0]

Interesting article describing what Sharon seeks from Bush during his current trip to Washington.

Quote[/b] ]Though Prime Minister Sharon will meet with US President Bush tomorrow, the Israeli Government delegation in Washington has thus far failed in its efforts to obtain American promises of substance in exchange for the withdrawal from Gaza. Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu set the stakes when he said last month that he would support the plan only on three conditions:

* The Americans must issue public declarations against the so-called 'right of return' for Arabs who left Israel in 1948.

* The Americans must also agree that the counter-terrorism partition fence include settlement blocs in Judea and Samaria, and that the entire fence be completed before the retreat begins.

* Israel must control all entrances and exits to the Gaza Strip, including the Philadelphi route separating Egypt and Gaza.

...

Since when has the US had the right to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians?

(Well... since about 56 years ago, I suppose. )

[llauma 0]

And here's the meeting.. The palestinians are pretty upset.

Quote[/b] ]Yasser Arafat said US backing for the plan would wreck all peace hopes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3626945.stm

[Apollo 0]

As a comment on Vanunuu Mordechai ,might i add that i once read that he not only whistleblowed a Nuclear program ,in fact a full NBC program ,thus also biological and Chemical weapons!

[brgnorway 0]

I'm surprised to find that noone here - including myself - have discussed the last days disastrous events in the Israeli-palestinian conflict. The gross actions on behalf of both the palestinians and Isreaeli have been discussed over and over again - but the last days support Sharon got from Bush is in another leage - and potentially even more harmfull to the people(s) affected.

I guess Bush understands he has nothing to gain anymore from Florida's arab-american minority and he is now gunning for support from the jewish voters.

What a shame it is braking all security council resolutions, all the peace efforts and at the same time breaking all known international laws at the same time. Shame on you Bush!

BBC World News

[denoir 0]

I'd say it's apathy. During the last decades there have been numerous 'balanced' peace deals that have not worked. It's highly unlikely that an unbalanced deal will work. The pals have so far shown a determination to get their wishes through and I don't see them backing down.

As for Bush, I don't think he knows what he is talking about. What you heard from him is Cheney talking. Don't be surprised to hear the exactly opposite if the Powell faction gains power. It's happened several times before.

[brgnorway 0]

I'd say it's apathy. During the last decades there have been numerous 'balanced' peace deals that have not worked. It's highly unlikely that an unbalanced deal will work. The pals have so far shown a determination to get their wishes through and I don't see them backing down.

As for Bush, I don't think he knows what he is talking about. What you heard from him is Cheney talking. Don't be surprised to hear the exactly opposite if the Powell faction gains power. It's happened several times before.

Yes, but what hasn't happened before is that a US government has "legalized" illegal settlements on occupied land! That is extraordinary! They obviously choose to set aside negotioation and promote power .

I guess the middle east will only become an even worse place to be after this  

The basics of this is that the palestinians are denied any rights normally attributed to a people.

[Bernadotte 0]

As for Bush, I don't think he knows what he is talking about. What you heard from him is Cheney talking. Don't be surprised to hear the exactly opposite if the Powell faction gains power. It's happened several times before.

This is very important.

In the ME, statements on paper don't mean as much as facts on the ground.  If Bush doesn't make these new concessions then Sharon will not likely get his party's support to pull out of Gaza.  But by the time the last settler leaves Gaza a new US administration (or a Powell faction) can pull the American position on settlements back into alignment with successive administrations of the past 3 decades, not to mention the international community.

But for now, let's first see some facts on the ground.