The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

For the last time, I am not saying that every palestinian killed by Israel "deserved" it.

AFAIK, it's the first time you are saying it.

[Guest]

For the last time, I am not saying that every palestinian killed by Israel "deserved" it.

AFAIK, it's the first time you are saying it.

Have you been operating under the presumption that I felt otherwise?

[miles teg 1]

*Warning-Very long Post*

Good points Acecombat.  I agree that there are no such things as combat zones.   Areas of combat in the Palestinian territories are very fluid as the IDF generally moves at will within most areas of the territory.  Fighting may start on the outskirts of one neighborhood but then within minutes move deep into that neighborhood.  

I however believe that some of those kids and other civilians do hang around the Palistinian gunmen because the gunmen are their heroes and they want to help in any way they can.  

Others however seem to clearly be just minding their own business and get caught up in the crossfire.  

The thing about rifle and medium to heavy machine gun rounds is that they also have a nasty habit of going through walls...often even several houses...and anything inside those houses.   It's not that uncommon that Palestinians are killed in their homes during these skirmishes.  This has been happening in Iraq as well.  

However Acecombat, there is also a double standard by Palistinian suicide bombers (and those who support them) as well.  They glorify blowing themselves up as martyrdom when there is nothing in the Qu'ran that justifies killing civilians or commiting suicide...and most definitely not those two things combined.   Blowing themselves up against military targets....hmmm that perhaps can be debated.

To date, I do not think anyone has ever made a systematic study to see if the Palistinians are actually capable of waging a guerilla war against the IDF with the explosives they have at hand.   Explosives are highly effective against even the most modern Army as militants in Iraq are showing to be the case with their almost daily roadside bomb attacks.  With only limited training a small amount of explosives can be turned into a highly effective shape charged explosive that can pierce armor or that can be used as part of ambushes in which Israeli troops are lured into kill zones.   Likewise false intelligence can be put out to lure IDF commandos into raiding homes rigged with explosives.  

However if there is indeed a highly acute shortage of explosives then they may have a certain logic to using these explosives in manner that insures certain casualties on the Israeli side (suicide bombings)... but that logic would be false I believe if you analyzed how many suicide bombers actually manage to get through to Israeli civilian areas vs. how many are thwarted in their efforts....plus there's the basic fact that using terrorist tactics only makes Israelies hate Palistinians even more and cause the non-Islamic world (and many Muslims) to refuse to support the Palistinians.  

It's very hard for most Westerners to have any sympathy for people who believe that purposefully targetting and killing women and children is a legitimate form of self-defense.

There is no justification for that either in international law or in the Qu'ran.   They do it because it feels WONDERFUL to be able to create FEAR in the hearts of their enemy.   It is for their own desires that they do this (even if they believe they are doing so as a sacrifice to Allah) and in doing so they only blasphemy Islam by linking the precious name of Allah to justify killing women and children.  At least the Israelies don't yell "YAWEH IS GREAT!!!" every time they hear of a successful suicide bombing against Palistinian civilians (well at least I haven't seen any do this...I'm sure a few might).  

But on the flipside, I understand where that level of hatred comes from.  What scares the hell out of most Westerners is that this hatred is fueled by religious ferver for many Palistinians...something that they share in common with many Islamic militant groups around the world...although I think the Palistinians truly know hatred due to their daily humiliation by the IDF.   This hatred also is due to death of Palistinian civilians by either random gunfire/shrapnel or by intentional targetting of civilians by a few IDF soldiers.  Other times its death from negligence on the part of the IAF during bombings using fighter-bombers or hellfire/tow missile attacks by helicopter gunships.  The list of reasons is long. That along with things like the helplessness of watching D8/D9 bulldozers levelling your home because a family member decided to blow himself (or herself) up in Israel (which sometimes degenerates into multiple homes being leveled).    Sometimes these bulldozers are used for some crazy reason like a group of shops that were leveled because they didn't have proper licences and permits to be there even though they had stood their for years and represented the lives of several generations of Palistinians.  Stuff like that is just pure nastiness and outright oppression on the part of the IDF that drives this incredibly deep deep level of hatred and desperation.  

From the people who I've talked to who have lived in the Palistinian territories, the way they describe the conditions there is just sickening... these include Christians who have gone there as part of humanitarian missions... and who's medical equipment often are confiscated or not allowed to be delivered into the Palistinian territories.  

But the West, especially America, doesn't see all these things.  So you have Israelies living in terror...and Palistinians living in both terror and utter humiliation and desperation.  

The stress of this situation boils over into violence as sure as the sun rises each day.

The horrible danger however is that from this conflict and its glorification of suicide bombers,  other terrorist groups have gotten their role models for suicide bombing even though they are not directly oppressed by the United States... instead they see every war in which Muslims are fighting non-Muslims as a Jihad that they feel obliged to fight...and in the process believe, like the Palistinian Jihadis, that civilian targets are perfectly legit targets in the eyes of Allah.  

The Arab media (like Al-Jezeera) totally buy into this concept by calling all suicide bombers "Martyrs" and not "suicide bombers."  So the concept is given great legitimacy in the Middle East by the mainstream media.

 

However much of this is legitimized in their minds by using some out of context interpretation of the Qu'ran or even worse, the Hadiths which are much easier to twist to use for political purposes since there are so many Hadiths to choose from including many that are highly questionable as far as authenticity goes.  But I'm not a scholar of the Hadith so I can't debate that issue... at least not yet.

What I can say is that to be a hypocrit is one of the worst sins in Islam so you would think that religious Islamic Palistinians would be really worried about this.  Yet they believe so sincerely that they are dying as martyrs and that because of this all their sins will be forgiven and they will be guaranteed entrance into heaven... I don't have the verse handy but I believe in the Qu'ran it says that entrance into heaven is only by virtue of the mercy of Allah.  What if all all this hatred and desire for revenge is fueled by the whisperings of Shaitan (satan) who loves chaos and destruction?   I bet you never hear militant Islamic Imams ask this question...

It is a lack of sincere self-reflection that is the bane of these types of people who claim to be religious and sincere in their faith... when in reality they are being only sincere to their animal instincts and emotions (fear, hatred, pride, loathing, revenge, ect...).   Mastery of one emotion or urge (like sexual desires) does not mean that a man masters all of his emotions and desires.

I've watched some interviews of these Wahabi Imams in Pakistan and their arrogance is just mindblowing.  No self-reflection of their beliefs is evident and any criticims of their beliefs is met with either laughter and quick dismisal, or if the questioning persists, with threats or acts of violence.  

... And yet these men are considered holy men even though they're not humble in the slightest sense of the word.  

Some of them are just downright evil as they seem to take great relish in the deaths of non-Muslims with cries of "Allah Akbar" and openly call for killing all who don't believe in their brand of Islam.  This is including fellow Muslims which the Qu'ran does not allow but which they justify by calling the other Muslims "hypocrits".   Hypocrits are of coarse considered to be the scum of the earth in Islam.  This is often why see alot of Shiite vs. Sunni violence in places like Pakistan.

 

Yet I still believe that many of their followers are not bad people.  They are just gullible and uneducated boys and young men who are poor and who are attracted to these Imam's firey sermons at the Mosques.  They stir their emotions and boost their pride in being Muslim...and with that pride, they stir feelings of strength and of self-righteous fury at the non-believer, and with that, beliefs that they are soldiers of Allah, or the sword of Allah with which they shall cleave through the ranks of the non-believers in glorious martyrdom as they give their bodies and souls to Allah fighting those they believe represent the forces of Shaitan.  

These are deep powerful feelings that can capture the heart and imagination of any young Muslim man.

However, anytime those fantasies include killing people it should send up big red warning flags in their minds.  

This is because these modern day Jihadis are not like the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) fighting for the survival of Islam back during the beginnings of Islam when they faced enemies on all sides trying to destroy them and their prophet.  

They may believe they are fighting for its survival, but these fools don't realize that Islam has been growing faster then any other religion in America without their "help."   Rather they are led to believe that the sword (or these days the gun and the suicide bomber) is the way to convert the non-believers to fear the wrath of God...when it instead it only brings upon them death and destruction.... just purely from a body count perspective, Jihadis around the world have come off much worse in most conflicts.... and have only brought on themselves and the Muslims they claim to protect, misery and death all because instead of using their minds, patience and love, militants are taught to use violence quickly against their enemy because they are taught that the speech of the unbeliever is full of poisonous lies that corrupt the heart.  They point at the influence and spread of American culture into their countries to prove their point.  Some also say that they will not compromise the will of Allah....as if they know what God's will is.    

This is easy to understand because Americans are just as guilty of this.  A good example is the way America has responded to the Middle East since 9/11. Even myself, immediately after 9/11 I was absolutely enraged. I WANTED REVENGE!!! I felt the war drums beating in my chest and even told people that we should use nuclear weapons on Afghanistan in retaliation to this horrific attack upon my country that I love. I still ocassionally feel that urge to recommend violence against militants but I try and check myself asking whether that truly would create a long term solution. I believe that it is only in some situations where very carefully planned, coordinated, and targetted usage of violence can be useful (such as assassinations of key militant leaders made to look as if rival groups carried them out or made to look like natural deaths). But even then the taking of human life should never be carried out lightly as we never know truly the hearts of those we slay by our own hand or indirectly through an order or through support of such killings.

Only God knows their hearts.

Unfortunately all of us make that mistake of assuming we know what someone's heart and mind is like. Sometimes we're right...but often we're wrong.

Violence is EXTREMELY satisfying when you are filled with self-righteous fury against a person or group who you believe has wronged you terribly.  It is also very easy to see the short-term benefit of violence....the results are immediate:  Pain, Death(sometimes), Destruction, & Terror!    

However what humans have MUCH more difficulty seeing is the effects of violence upon the friends, family, and community of this dead or wounded enemy who they have slain or injured in some horrific fashion.... this causes often an even greater and more horrific violent reaction against them....and then a counter-reaction, ect... ect...   a lovely circle of violence with one side's violence justifying the others violent reaction over and over again until one side is destroyed or one side gets a wise leader who reaches out with love and forgiveness to his enemy and sincerely seeks peace... or also if some 3rd party steps in and intervenes in the conflict.

Peace is MUCH more difficult as is forgiveness and patience.  Everyone knows this.  Both Christians, Jews, and Muslims talk so much about the importance of forgiveness, peace, and of being merciful, yet few practice it consistently.  

I've met people of all faiths who do practice these virtues (and many other good virtues) consistently and they are incredible people!  

So I am not like those cynics who believe that such people do not exist who truly practice their religions sincerely.  

I know that they do and it's their examples that give me hope for peace in this world.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]At least the Israelies don't yell "YAWEH IS GREAT!!!" every time they hear of a successful suicide bombing against Palistinian civilians (well at least I haven't seen any do this...I'm sure a few might).  

Ummmm, what suicide bombings against palestinians??

But anyways, great post miles.  I especially agree with your statements about the various Hadiths and their susceptibility to misuse.  Grand Ayatollah Sistani is a good example in my eyes of a muslim leader who is concerned with Islam's relationship with the west and takes steps to improve it.

Taking the ball into Israel's court, I have found an interesting distinction between the religious aims of the settler movement and the strategic aims of the IDF.  These two camps are not as friendly as people assume lately, and the friction between them is growing.  Many Israelis are becoming increasingly secular, and the israeli leadership realized early on that promoting the settlement policy on religious grounds alone would not take it very far.  Unfortuneately, by seeing the settlements as strategic outposts against a foreign invasion, they have created their own little quagmire.  Many settlers in the Yishuv movement are motivated by religious reasons to settle areas like Hebron or Elon Moreh and other such areas in the WB (less so GZ).  The Israeli army finds itself spending so much protecting them from "internal violence" (i.e. the pals) that they might have well just built huge military bases in the settlements stead...

The parralells between the religious and strategic reasons for maintaining the settlements are fading IMHO as Israel's relations with its neighbors improve and its relations with its occupants (the pals) decline.

But, there is a strong voice in Israel that says "If this is a jewish state, aren't the religious pioneers (settlers) doing the work of god as it says in the Torah?" This is a debate that will not be resolved soon...

In essence, Jews, as well as Muslims, must come to terms with adapting 2000 year old texts to western style democracies.  I think that in Israel's case, they have a head start - thanks to 1950 years of diaspora and integration into western society, but they still have alot of work to do.  As for the muslim world, keep looking to guys like Ayatollah Sistani...

[miles teg 1]

It doesn't matter who's idea it is that Israel should be one state.  The fact of the matter is that IT WON'T HAPPEN short of bloody genocide.   To allow Palestinians to become citizens of Israel would mean THE END OF ISRAEL as a Jewish nation period.    That goes against everything the state of Israel is founded upon which is why it won't happen anytime soon unless the Arabs already living in Israel (NOT THE PALISTINIAN TERRITORIES) side by side with Jewish Israelies surpass the Jewish population.  Then there will be trouble...

Calm down, Miles. (Section 3. §6)

I have not denounced a 2-state solution.  I've only tried to point out that the ultimate solution can not be dictated by Israel because the Palestinians still have a strong demographic advantage in doing nothing, while making more babies.  That's all.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that anyone is screaming and crying for a unified Jewish/Palistinian country.  I've only said that Sharon's unilateralism could indeed devolve to become similar to apartheid South Africa.  Otherwise, Israel would lose its Jewish majority.  You seem to agree with this, so I don't see the problem.  What the Palestinian Prime Minister said was merely in response to Sharon's threat to invoke a settlement on Israel's terms.

Arguements for one nation like you propose are simply not productive.  Those involved in the peace process who believe as you do and who are thick-headed and stubborn about it don't help anyone in that region.  It only distracts people's attentions from realistic solutions that stand a good chance of being achieved.

Calm down, Miles.

Did I call you thick-headed and stubborn when you insisted that Israel and Palestine are already 2 countries?  

(Even rufusmac knows they are not.)

Now please either show me where I've proposed or argued for a one-nation solution or stop putting words in my mouth.

The Bantustans had no international support.  Also it segregation there was along racial lines and not religious and did not have the highly sensitive religious context that makes the Israeli/Palistinian conflict a highly dangerous flashpoint for the entire world.

Would Palestinian bantustans have international support?

Would the problem be solved if every Palestinian converted to Judaism, tomorrow?

Uh... Bernadotte.... exactly which of those rules you put a link to did I violate?  If you have a problem with my behavior, let me know.  At least tell a moderator who will then inform me of my misconduct (overall I respect the moderators here even when I disagree with them).

Ok...  so if you don't believe in a one-nation solution then what exactly are we debating here?  What exactly is your stance?  You kept talking about Israel and the Palistinians as one nation so I assumed that's what you believed in.  

My apologies if I am mistaken... if so then I wasted alot of time in those replies to you debating over nothing.

As for Palestinian bantustans, it seems that's what the world is supporting these days... or at least the UN and the United States.  But it depends on how you define bantustans.  

What I mean is that the UN and the US seem to be pushing for an officially recognized Palistinian state completely seperate from Israel.  

As for every Palistinian converting to Judaism tomorrow... first off that would realistically never happen as any Palistinian who did that would likely be killed by their fellow Palestinians who didn't convert. Second, it could be argued that they can only be Jewish by blood and not by choice so they may not be accepted by Jews born into Judaism especially since the Palistinians were just recently trying to kill them.  

Finally, even if by some miracle all the Palistinians converted to Judaism overnight simultaneously, it would only change the nature of the conflict if they still saw themselves as a seperate group from the Israeli Jews.  

The shift of one variable may help or hinder peace, but it takes many things to change for there to be true peace in the Middle East.

A big part of it is simply changing attitudes and perceptions on both sides.   A good start is to try and counter this whole "cult-of-the-suicidal-martyr" that is so wildly popular in the Palestinian territories and in many parts of the Middle East where suicide bombes are regarded as super-heroes.

Saladin would be rolling over in his grave if he saw what his fellow Muslims are doing now.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

Let me ask you something, if you were on a patrol, and you saw that group of palestinians in the first picture, what would you do?  Its a simple question really...

I would probably do the same thing as when I would see this.

Wouldn't you?

[miles teg 1]

That picture doesn't mean much.  It's a settler with a rifle (and his hands are not on the trigger judging from his arm positions) with an Arab woman yelling at him.  

Pictures and even video is very deceptive when taken out of context.  People regard the media as truth without realizing that it is often what the media doesn't show that is more important then what it shows.  

You simply can't answer such questions based on pictures as we, sitting in our homes or office, have no idea what the situation is in those pictures because we do not have the appropriate context as someone who is on the ground right then experience firsthand what is going on and what led to the standoff or fighting.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

...it could be argued that they can only be Jewish by blood and not by choice so they may not be accepted by Jews born into Judaism...

In that case, a Palestinian has about as much chance of becoming Jewish as Nelsen Mandela has of becoming white.  You make it sound more and more like a racial conflict than a religious one.

[Bernadotte 0]

Pictures and even video is very deceptive when taken out of context.  People regard the media as truth without realizing that it is often what the media doesn't show that is more important then what it shows.

Exactly!!

Now why didn't you mention that earlier in response to the images of armed Palestinians posted by rufusmac?  Oh, I forgot, you are biased aren't you?

[Bernadotte 0]

Does it really matter that the CIA's map of Israel looks like this as long as the Israeli government's map looks like this?  

My but aren't you devious. Same map but here's the page it's on, with a detailed boundary line and color code legend underneath.

If you had any idea what was being discussed you would realise that the map legend supports my argument.  I didn't realise it was a separate image.

Thanks.

[miles teg 1]

It all depends on your belief.  But honestly I am not qualified to talk about what Jews in general believe or don't believe regarding whether Palistinian Jewish converts would be accepted or not into mainstream Israeli culture.  I can only say that according to a couple of Jews I know here in America, a Jewish convert is not truly Jewish.   But they may be a tiny miniority, because I've also met some Jews who think that Jewish converts are just as Jewish as they are as long as they practice the faith sincerely.

Avon Lady could tell you more about the different viewpoints then I could.

But it's silly to even argue this point as it would never happen.  If you think that's a solution then again please point out a plan for "converting" Palestinian Christians and Muslims to Judaism.   Otherwise it's a waste of bandwidth to argue this point unless you're trying to get me to call this a racial conflict... something that doesn't quite fit the conflict since you still have Arabs in Israel (not including the Palistinian territories) and because Jews whos families have lived in Israel (or Palestine) for generations look pretty much the same as Palestinians and share much of the same culture (aside from religious aspects).  The Bedhoins in Israel are a good example of this. Plus some Palestinian familes are descended from Jews who converted to Islam.

So no I don't think it's a racial conflict...  it's just a conflict between two groups.   If you want to define it that way, you'd have to ask Israelies and Palestinians living in the Palestinian territories whether or not they view it as a racial conflict because it doesn't matter how someone like myself defines it as when such a definition may mean nothing to the people involved in the conflict... that is unless I can use that definition as part of a framework for which I can do something productive with it to achieve peace.  

With that said, certainly there are some similarities to what happened in South Africa, but there are also VAST differences.

The main one is that the concept of "The Nation of Israel" holds HUGE religious significance for many Jews living in Israel.

Likewise Jerusalem is a very sacred place for Muslims and many can not bear the thought of it being in Jewish hands.

South Africa also did not have the United States backing its apartheid system.    Israel on the other hand has powerful American backing.

But in the end I can not simply say it is a religious conflict either.   It is a mixture of all kinds of issues that have caused this conflict and they all need to be understood not only from a historical context but from on how that history is percieved by those on both sides of the conflict today because each side has their own version of history about Israel/Palestine.

It is also important not to homogenize the people of both sides of this conflict.  There are tons of different groups of Issraelies with different viewpoints as well as tons of different Palestinian groups and beliefs.  

What is more important is to identify as many of these groups as possible, then identify which groups are the main antagonists in the conflict on both sides.   It's a form of triage.

Once you identify the key players you analyze their support structure and their ideologies not just from a academic point of view but from an emotional and spiritual viewpoint by living

with both Palistinian families (militants if possible) and communities as well as with Israeli settlers and their familes and communities (as well as with IDF patrols and Israeli politicians if possible) in order to get a really good feel for how both sides see each other in a very intimate way.    The danger of coarse is from bias caused by nasty (or wonderful) experiences.   That must be guarded against through rigerous self-reflection (similar to some schools of psychology which emphasize this).   But even then....bias always slips through so its something that has to be expected.

Upon getting this sort of double vision of a conflict along with an outsider's perspective you can then sort through the stereotypes and misunderstandings and get to really what the core issues are for the antagonists in both sides of the conflict... and then from this work on solutions acceptable to both sides that are crafted from this intimate knowledge of both sides.  

This is how a conflict anthropologist operates... well at least some conflict anthropologists.   Others prefer more quantitative forms of study such as surveys and economic analysis.   Quantitative analysis is useful sometimes...but for me its only part of the picture and very dangerous when used by itself as numbers can be skewed either by bias, by sloppy statistical analysis, sloppy data gathering methodology, or by faulty data.  

But with that said, descriptive analysis can be dangerous by itself also.  Both need each other to help give a study strong validity.    Numbers alone don't tell the whole story.  On the flipside even the most brilliant descriptive writing may not echo reality, especially if the observations are based on a small sample size that don't represent the actual views of the majority of a population that you are studying.  

There are currently people doing this type of work in Israel and with the Palestinians (or both), but sadly either they are only publishing in academic journals or some obscure UN publications that nobody pays attention to, or their results are simply ignored by the media and by the politicians and leaders of both sides of the conflict.  

That is where the anthropologist needs to become not only media/marketting saavy but also active in mediation... something which is very very risky for their career and their lives.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

In essence, Jews, as well as Muslims, must come to terms with adapting 2000 year old texts to western style democracies.

Well if we need to take the Lord's name in vane we can simply spell it G-d instead of God.

And if we need to violate the commandment against killing by dropping a 1-ton bomb on a crowded apartment building to eliminate one militant then... well... we're still working on reconciling that.

Did I tell you about my friend who grew up in an Orthodox Jewish neighbourhood of Brooklyn?  As a kid he earned money every Friday evening going from house to house turning on people's lights.  I guess there's nothing in those 2000 year old texts against turning off your own lights on the Sabbath.

[miles teg 1]

Pictures and even video is very deceptive when taken out of context.  People regard the media as truth without realizing that it is often what the media doesn't show that is more important then what it shows.

Exactly!!

Now why didn't you mention that earlier in response to the images of armed Palestinians posted by rufusmac?  Oh, I forgot, you are biased aren't you?

I think in that really long reply I wrote on the last page I may have mentioned something about it... but I didn't address him specifically because during that period he was posting those pics I was busy with life and had not checked this thread for awhile.  I may not check this thread for several days or weeks sometimes. I only write whenever I have the time and/or energy to do so as it helps me to hash out theoretical issues that I'm working on.

And yes I am biased in many many ways.  

If you are not biased in any way then you are not human or you do not realize your biases. I'm also not above having my biases pointed out by others. This is often like a splash of cold water for me which is a good thing because it opens me up to other ways of thinking or of approaching problems... well unless I really really LOVE that particular bias.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[theavonlady 2]

It all depends on your belief.  But honestly I am not qualified to talk about what Jews in general believe or don't believe regarding whether Palistinian Jewish converts would be accepted or not into mainstream Israeli culture.  I can only say that according to a couple of Jews I know here in America, a Jewish convert is not truly Jewish.   But they may be a tiny miniority, because I've also met some Jews who think that Jewish converts are just as Jewish as they are as long as they practice the faith sincerely.

Avon Lady could tell you more about the different viewpoints then I could.

Someone who truly converts to Judaism (exluding the Elizabeth Taylor and Sammy Davis Jr. varieties), is as Jewish as a maternal descendant of Moses.

It is a grave Torah transgression to remind a convert of his origins (often even if meant in a positive way) or to mistreat a convert because of his origins.

A sampling of information on the subject can be found in this article.

[denoir 0]

But being allowed to convert ain't that easy, right? IIRC it's nothing like Christianity where they'll given the chance  convert any breathing life-form that approaches them.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Several people have been killed in a suspected suicide bomb attack on a bus in Jerusalem, according to reports.

BBC

[theavonlady 2]

But being allowed to convert ain't that easy, right? IIRC it's nothing like Christianity where they'll given the chance  convert any breathing life-form that approaches them.

Very true. Conversion to Judaism is a lengthy process, often a year or two.

In the news..............

It would appear that I missed being there this morning by 10 minutes or so.

[denoir 0]

It would appear that I missed being there this morning by 10 minutes or so.

Nasty.

Your bus? According to Swedish media the explosion occured on the corner between the Arlozorov street and the Gaza street.

[theavonlady 2]

Your bus? According to Swedish media the explosion occured on the corner between the Arlozorov street and the Gaza street.

No. I was in my car. Passed within a block from there less than 10 minutes before.

Now I'll have more families and patients to visit.

[denoir 0]

Now I'll have more families and patients to visit.

Care to elaborate more on that?

[theavonlady 2]

Now I'll have more families and patients to visit.

Care to elaborate more on that?

See my sig.

[denoir 0]

Ok. Have you been doing this for a long time?

[theavonlady 2]

Ok. Have you been doing this for a long time?

About 2 years.

[Guest]

The 19 is a major bus...  I rode it every day from hebrew U on mt scopus to downtown this summer.  AFAIK, this is the first time it has been hit...

anyways...

Quote[/b] ]Did I tell you about my friend who grew up in an Orthodox Jewish neighbourhood of Brooklyn?  As a kid he earned money every Friday evening going from house to house turning on people's lights.  I guess there's nothing in those 2000 year old texts against turning off your own lights on the Sabbath.

I grew up in a religious family in NYC as well.  We did not use any electricity on the sabbath, and also followed a host of other interesting restrictions...  

Thanks for bringing up the light issue, because it relates to my point very well.  The torah, like the Qur'an, is supposed to be a spritual guide.  The Talmud, written 1000 years later, similar (but not exactly) to the Hadiths, is the book that defines how a jew lives his life day to day, as a member of another society (i.e. europe, russia, or the middle east.)  One purpose of the talmud was to bridge the gap between the ancient texts of the Torah (written by god) and the laws of "modern" life (created by man).

I find it ironic that you look to the Torah (or bible) for reasons why Israel is too HARD on the palestinians, when the "good book" is where you read about "conquering the land of canann and slaying everyone in your way"...

And seriously bernadotte, how long are you going to play this "standoff role", accusing others of impartiality while you enjoy your coveted "objective" viewpoint.  Bias can be an asset, as long as you are up front about it.  I like to believe that of everyone on this board, the people you accuse of bias (me, avon, chris g) are the ones who work hardest to furthur a reasoned and rational discussion.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]I would probably do the same thing as when I would see this.

I could swear I know the guy in picture 12... strange.

Anyhow, you aren't even reading my posts anymore, you are just skimming for my alleged claim of palestinian wrongdoings, then countering with one of Israelis. In fact, that slideshow represents the EXACT OPPOSITE of the situation in the pictures I posted. Here, the soldiers follow the civilians around to keep them from getting killed. I don't neccesarily stand behind this SMALL group of extreme right wingers and their own interpretation of the torah (who are wearing "teffilin" on their arms, which should only be worn during prayer). If those specific settlers got themselves shot and killed there and then, I would feel the same way, they asked for it. I don't like the idea of the army protecting them on their little excursions, and I don't think the soldiers like it much either...