The Middle East part 2

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Do you make this up as you go along?

ethnic cleansing

n.

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide

Quote[/b] ]Had the Swedish government had the brains to forewarn the Ambassador that they cannot remove the exhibit, he would not have attended the exhibit nor the conference in protest - plain and simple.

The Swedish government had nothing to do with the exhibit. It was an artistic project arranged in conjunction with the conference, but the government has no right or power to dictate what should or should not be put on display.

As for not attending the conference because of the opinion of two artists. Its both childish and stupid.

Quote[/b] ]Since the Swedish government neither asked for the removal of such anti-Israeli trash nor did they notify the Ambassador of its presence, the Ambassador acted as he did.

They had no reason to ask for its removal, since its not anti-Israeli. Its anti war, anti genocide, anti terror. Its made by an Israeli fod gods sake, I doubt he would promote the murder of his own family and friends.

What you are saying here is that if I attend an art exchibit and upon entering I am not informed that I can be offended by the displays, I have a right to trash it? Hmmm... I wouldnt want to be an artist in Israel, since many people are easily offended and thus can wreck your work.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you make this up as you go along?

and:

Quote[/b] ]Israel has a 120 memeber parliament. Its prime minister is elected on a regular basis. We do not emphasize aggressive nationalism, militarism nor racism.

Realy?

Your security fence likens the walls around the Warsaw getto if you ask me (you asked for it Avon) .

And militarism which rather undiscriminately targets/collateraly damages civilian lifes and property also bears resemblance. If you throw in a couple of hundreds of olive farms systematically destroyed to give room to whatever you like such as settlers and their stolen land I'd say the definition kicks back at your government Avon?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Do you make this up as you go along?

ethnic cleansing

n.

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide

So? There is no systematic elimination of an ethnic group on the part of Israel.

How about the goals of the PA and their terror organizations next door?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Had the Swedish government had the brains to forewarn the Ambassador that they cannot remove the exhibit, he would not have attended the exhibit nor the conference in protest - plain and simple.

The Swedish government had nothing to do with the exhibit. It was an artistic project arranged in conjunction with the conference, but the government has no right or power to dictate what should or should not be put on display.

Too bad that's not what they told the Israeli government. The Ambassador simply would not have attended and Israel would have not participated in the conference.

Quote[/b] ]As for not attending the conference because of the opinion of two artists. Its both childish and stupid.

That's my opinion of the Sweden government's allowing such an exhibit to be in conjunction with the conference.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Since the Swedish government neither asked for the removal of such anti-Israeli trash nor did they notify the Ambassador of its presence, the Ambassador acted as he did.

They had no reason to ask for its removal, since its not anti-Israeli.

That's your opinion. Not mine. Not most people's here. Even the Swedish Ambassador here said it was in bad taste - and he wasn't referring to the color scheme.

Quote[/b] ]Its anti war, anti genocide, anti terror. Its made by an Israeli fod gods sake, I doubt he would promote the murder of his own family and friends.

He's not promoting the murder. He's excusing it. And we have no lack of self hating Israelis. This one in particular has nothing but a history of being anti-Israeli.

Quote[/b] ]What you are saying here is that if I attend an art exchibit and upon entering I am not informed that I can be offended by the displays, I have a right to trash it?

I didn't say you have the right. I'm saying I fully understand where the Ambassador came from.

Sometimes civil disobedience is called for in protest. This was a very rare case of diplomatic disobedience.

Quote[/b] ]Hmmm... I wouldnt want to be an artist in Israel,

You're not.

Quote[/b] ]since many people are easily offended and thus can wreck your work.

I wouldn't want to be a Jew in Sweden and I'm not.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I said SHE, not all, or not suicide bombers in general. So no, not every suicide bomber is a victim.

Then a 17-year-old kid blowing himself up is not a victim, just because his big brother asked him to join A Martyr's brigade? A well-educated mother turned to a murderer is more of a victim than him? Well how do you classify a victim suicide bomber and deliberate terrorist one? She was deliberately victimized in this work which in my view was offending to the victims of her murderous act.

Quote[/b] ]

No, she acted out of fear, dispair, hate and malice.

Guess the other suicide bombers did it for fun?

Somebody again thought that I agree on what ambassador did at the museum. Wrong again! But I partly understand that he was angry. What I find surprising is that almost nobody here sees anything even potentially insulting in that artwork.

Quote[/b] ]Do you think it would have been allowed at a spanish museum? Do you think you would have enjoyed the "freedom" of Spain back then?

Of course not. But we are talking about victim's point of view here, not what the regime thinks about it. You know, there is a big difference of individuals getting insulted by art and their possibilities of doing about it and government's own selfish interests. And as I explained earlier Snowhite is in entirely different piece of art.

Quote[/b] ]Fascism and Israel? Yes, that too I'm afraid - or rather, call it ethnic clensing!

You've made your views crystal clear...

Quote[/b] ]try to go into the head of the artist!

Been there, done that, tt wasn't pretty...

If it was Palestinian victims getting insulted by similiar peace of art, everyone most just join in the condemning bandwagon or stay quiet. Funny that art can is so dividing. But they have every right to be insulted because Israel is the facist invader, naturally.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Do you make this up as you go along?

and:

Quote[/b] ]Israel has a 120 memeber parliament. Its prime minister is elected on a regular basis. We do not emphasize aggressive nationalism, militarism nor racism.

Realy?

Your security fence likens the walls around the Warsaw getto if you ask me (you asked for it Avon) .

Now you're showing your blatant ignorance.

The ghetto walls were built to prevent people from getting out.

The security fence is being built to prevent terrorists from getting in.

The ghetto housed only Jews and those found outside of it were tossed in or worse.

The security fence encloses a large proportion of the Jews living in Judea and Samaria, along with the Araba population there.

On the other side of the fence, along with us Jews, Israel's population consists of more than 20% Arabs, not including Druse, Carcesians and others.

Now, what was it I asked for? More of your pulp fiction?

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]So? There is no systematic elimination of an ethnic group on the part of Israel.

What do you call preventing a specific group of people from entering certain areas then? Or putting people in enclosed camps?

Quote[/b] ]How about the goals of the PA and their terror organizations next door?

Equally bad. But since they are a terroristorganisation, it is to be expected. Where as Israel is a country, with a legal government.

Quote[/b] ]Too bad that's not what they told the Israeli government. The Ambassador simply would not have attended and Israel would have not participated in the conference.

Thats all public information. Its part of an ambassadors job to know what the heck he is visiting and who is arranging it.

Quote[/b] ]That's my opinion of the Sweden government's allowing such an exhibit to be in conjunction with the conference.

Yeah, freedom of speach sucks, I know. I am so sorry we dont restrict peoples opinions here, like I am sure you do in Israel by the tone of that remark.

Quote[/b] ]That's your opinion. Not mine. Not most people's here. Even the Swedish Ambassador here said it was in bad taste - and he wasn't referring to the color scheme.

Bad taste does not equal anti-israeli. As for most peoples opinion, I am quite sure that most people here who can actually read the artists on comments and think for themselves would see that the artwork is not just anti-israeli. Its directed at the entire situation going on in Israel, and the injustices commited by both sides, and what result that brings.

Quote[/b] ]He's not promoting the murder. He's excusing it. And we have no lack of self hating Israelis. This one in particular has nothing but a history of being anti-Israeli.

He is not excusing it. He is looking for an explenation to it.

Quote[/b] ]I wouldn't want to be a Jew in Sweden and I'm not.

Why not? What is so bad about being jewish in Sweden? The fact that many Swedes object to the situation in Israel has nothing to do with how they view jews. Jews are just as equal as anyone else here, we dont give them special treatment, nor do we discriminate towards them.

[denoir 0]

Had the Swedish government had the brains to forewarn the Ambassador that they cannot remove the exhibit, he would not have attended the exhibit nor the conference in protest - plain and simple.

Actually as it turns out, Israel will be attending the conference and the exhibit will stay in place. As a matter of fact, since the controversy begun the visits to the exhibit has sky-rocketed. So really, if anything the ambassador shot himeslf in the foot if his intentions were to object about the exhibit.

It's obvious however that it was a publicity stunt with the purpose of scoring points by painting a picture of "European anti-semitism". It's just one incident in a long line of deliberate tactics of exploiting the guilt that people feel about the holocaust. But guess what? It's not working. There are very few people alive today who had anything to do with the persecutions of Jews during WW2. People have no reason to feel guilty and only get pissed off when they're accused of being nazis and anti-semites.

The ambassador's parting words from the exhibit were "You are starting a second holocaust". Such a statement is not just an disproportionate unreasonable insult towards those that arranged or supported the exhibit. It is also an insult to those that perished in the concentration camps, by comparing the horrors they went through to such a trivial thing as a pacifist work of art.

[theavonlady 2]

The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a PowerPoint presentation on the security fence titled "Security Fence:

What is the Security fence? What is its route? And more..."

Because of some of the pictures used in the presentation, I cannot give a direct link to it here on the forums.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Then a 17-year-old kid blowing himself up is not a victim, just because his big brother asked him to join A Martyr's brigade?

In your example, yes, he is a victim since someone lured him in.

Quote[/b] ] A well-educated mother turned to a murderer is more of a victim than him?

Never said that, so please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Quote[/b] ]Well how do you classify a victim suicide bomber and deliberate terrorist one? She was deliberately victimized in this work which in my view was offending to the victims of her murderous act.?

Its not about victims or deliberates, its about victims and instigators. Usama Bin Laden is an instigator for example, as are most of the leaders and recruiters of terroristorganisations who pull other people into their circle of violence. Often at no cost of their own, but a high price of their victims (and the victims victims, if you will).

Quote[/b] ] Guess the other suicide bombers did it for fun?

Again, never said they did. You asked why she did it, I responded.

Quote[/b] ] Somebody again thought that I agree on what ambassador did at the museum. Wrong again! But I partly understand that he was angry. What I find surprising is that almost nobody here sees anything even potentially insulting in that artwork

Of course it can be insulting and very provocative. Its the entire point of that piece of art. That STILL does not give anyone the right to wreck it.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course not. But we are talking about victim's point of view here, not what the regime thinks about it. You know, there is a big difference of individuals getting insulted by art and their possibilities of doing about it and government's own selfish interests. And as I explained earlier Snowhite is in entirely different piece of art.

You just don't get the point do you? You only focus on the victimrole given by the text. Next time try to discover the picture in a sea of blood! I'd say it pretty much takes on a role as irony with snowhite in a pool of blood. How can that possibly encourage terrorism and suicidal bombing?

Quote[/b] ]You've made your views crystal clear...

Perhaps you haven't read my former posts on this forum...

but I happen to think that the terror done from both sides are equally bad......you on the other hand.......?

Quote[/b] ]Been there, done that, tt wasn't pretty...

No you haven't - and none can! Try read the works of Jean Paul Sartre and you'll see what I mean! You can never ever be another person - it's as simple as that!

Quote[/b] ]But they have every right to be insulted because Israel is the facist invader, naturally.

LOL - that's pathetic! Read what I wrote!

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's obvious however that it was a publicity stunt

Well I think he was genuinely angry and had every right to be (but not to a point of vandalizing). Or do you really believe he just decided to throw things around because MOSSAD adviced him to promote sympathy for Israel? Nice theory! :P

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]The ghetto walls were built to prevent people from getting out.

The security fence is being built to prevent terrorists from getting in.

.....maybe that's what you think - but in effect, most ordinary people whom has nothing to do with terrorism are prevented from getting out aswell. There have been on more than one occasion that people have died just because they have been prevented from reaching palestinian hospitals in other "segregated" areas. So who's being ignorant?

Quote[/b] ]The ghetto housed only Jews and those found outside of it were tossed in or worse.

The security fence encloses a large proportion of the Jews living in Judea and Samaria, along with the Araba population there.

I didnt' know jews and arabs lived next door.....

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Well I think he was genuinely angry and had every right to be (but not to a point of vandalizing). Or do you really believe he just decided to throw things around because MOSSAD adviced him to promote sympathy for Israel? Nice theory! :P

Stranger things than ambassadors actually acting on a political agenda have happened you know.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]So? There is no systematic elimination of an ethnic group on the part of Israel.

What do you call preventing a specific group of people from entering certain areas then?

Self defense. Read above. It's often done between warring countries.

Quote[/b] ]Or putting people in enclosed camps?

I can only assume you're referring to the refugee camps.

These camps are located in Gaza and the West Bank. Come to think of it, they're also in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

Not a single one of them was built by Israel.

You're asking the wrong party.

Try doing some elementary reading first.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]How about the goals of the PA and their terror organizations next door?

Equally bad. But since they are a terroristorganisation, it is to be expected.

And to be tollerated by us?

Quote[/b] ]Where as Israel is a country, with a legal government.

Entitled to defend itself from the terrorists next door.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Too bad that's not what they told the Israeli government. The Ambassador simply would not have attended and Israel would have not participated in the conference.

Thats all public information. Its part of an ambassadors job to know what the heck he is visiting and who is arranging it.

It was a precondition presented by Israel, who were stupid enough to believe that the hosting government was reliable in their assurances.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]That's my opinion of the Sweden government's allowing such an exhibit to be in conjunction with the conference.

Yeah, freedom of speach sucks, I know. I am so sorry we dont restrict peoples opinions here, like I am sure you do in Israel by the tone of that remark.

Once again, you can go and display all the crap you want. Under normal circumstances, protest is the normal route to take.

When the Swedish government blundered and assured the ambassador that there would be no such offensive works at the exhibit, this is what can happen.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]That's your opinion. Not mine. Not most people's here. Even the Swedish Ambassador here said it was in bad taste - and he wasn't referring to the color scheme.

Bad taste does not equal anti-israeli.

I've already pointed out several pages back why it's anti-Israeli. Sorry, but I'm entitled to a different opinion than you.

Quote[/b] ]As for most peoples opinion, I am quite sure that most people here who can actually read the artists on comments and think for themselves would see that the artwork is not just anti-israeli. Its directed at the entire situation going on in Israel, and the injustices commited by both sides, and what result that brings.

You put it in a nutshell - it equates Israel defending itself to the acts of a mass murderer of people eating in a restaurant. Thanks for the assistance.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]He's not promoting the murder. He's excusing it. And we have no lack of self hating Israelis. This one in particular has nothing but a history of being anti-Israeli.

He is not excusing it. He is looking for an explenation to it.

You gave his explanation above and I gave my response.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I wouldn't want to be a Jew in Sweden and I'm not.

Why not? What is so bad about being jewish in Sweden?

The same thing that's bad for you being an artist in Israel.

Quote[/b] ]The fact that many Swedes object to the situation in Israel has nothing to do with how they view jews. Jews are just as equal as anyone else here, we dont give them special treatment, nor do we discriminate towards them.

Just as you might not feel comfortable here, I may have the same if not more discomfort for the discriminating attitude people like you express so lop-sidedly against Israel.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]The ghetto walls were built to prevent people from getting out.

The security fence is being built to prevent terrorists from getting in.

.....maybe that's what you think - but in effect, most ordinary people whom has nothing to do with terrorism are prevented from getting out aswell.

I don't think German citizens were free to visit the Empire State Building during WWII.

Now, however, they can.

What's the difference between then and now? It's a little thing called war. During a war, you don't necessarily trust the citizens of the enemy state to freely walk around your country and do as they please.

Quote[/b] ]There have been on more than one occasion that people have died just because they have been prevented from reaching palestinian hospitals in other "segregated" areas. So who's being ignorant?

You are. War is hell. I never heard you sponsor the reverse argument: hundreds of people have lost their lives and have been taken into hospitals and have been crippled for life because Israel previously didn't prevent terrorists from coming into Israel.

Once again, The Pals have themselves to blame. They started the war. They're stuck with it until it stops.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The ghetto housed only Jews and those found outside of it were tossed in or worse.

The security fence encloses a large proportion of the Jews living in Judea and Samaria, along with the Araba population there.

I didnt' know jews and arabs lived next door.....

Then you are truly ignorant.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Well I think he was genuinely angry and had every right to be (but not to a point of vandalizing). Or do you really believe he just decided to throw things around because MOSSAD adviced him to promote sympathy for Israel? Nice theory!  :P

Stranger things than ambassadors actually acting on a political agenda have happened you know.

Yes! Let's assume conspiracy, the default assumption when an Israeli is involved!

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]In your example, yes, he is a victim since someone lured him in.

Quote[/b] ]Its not about victims or deliberates, its about victims and instigators.

Most of them are recruited or lured, then attack. Therefore they are helpless victims? No, they choose to be suicide bombers.

Quote[/b] ]Never said that, so please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Just asked you a question.

Quote[/b] ]That STILL does not give anyone the right to wreck it.

Never said the ambassador had right to do that. But in your view anything goes with art, so nobody's feelings are taken into account?

Quote[/b] ]I'd say it pretty much takes on a role as irony with snowhite in a pool of blood. How can that possibly encourage terrorism and suicidal bombing?

Did I say it promotes suicide bombing? I didn't find the irony very amusing, rather disgusting. I'm just saying that it's deeply insulting to some and their views have right to be taken into account.

Quote[/b] ]but I happen to think that the terror done from both sides are equally bad

Well that is very credible to hear after your facist-calling ethnic clensing -comments. You don't believe that even yourself do you?

Quote[/b] ]

You can never ever be another person - it's as simple as that!

Thanks for the information. And BTW lets let Mr.Satre to rest in his grave.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I didnt' know jews and arabs lived next door.....

Then you are truly ignorant.

LOOOL, no but I think there are something called fences around the places israeli (jews) live!

If I was mustafa I wouldn't expect you turning up for a cup of coffee on my patio

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's obvious however that it was a publicity stunt

Well I think he was genuinely angry and had every right to be (but not to a point of vandalizing). Or do you really believe he just decided to throw things around because MOSSAD adviced him to promote sympathy for Israel? Nice theory!  :P

That's your theory, not mine. His actions were fully consistent with the backbone of Israel's foregin policy.

As a matter of fact, as he said in an interview with Haaretz, he had planned this before attending the exhibit. Which puts a dent on the theory that it was an impulsive action.

To answer your previous question, no, I don't understand how normal people could find the exhibit insulting. It takes a hard-core right wing Israeli (such as Avon) to find it objectionable. And then again, it's on a strictly political level because they cannot in their mind imagine Israel in any way being involved in anything negative. Hence, the mere mention of the fate of her brother and cousin must be an attack on the state of Israel. And anybody who attacks the state of Israel must be an anti-semite and nazi. That's the logic anyhow.

Your argument of "why doesn't anybody think of the families of the victims?" is nonsensical. This exhibit was not aimed at the families, who I'm sure would be more upset by the real blood of their loved ones that they could see on TV. Nasty things happen in the world and people get hurt. So what is the good thing to do Blake?

A) Analyze why it happened. Review it over and over agian until we understand the cause and know how to prevent it next time.

or

B) Erase every trace and memory of it as it is painful to reflect upon.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]I didnt' know jews and arabs lived next door.....  

Then you are truly ignorant.

LOOOL, no but I think there are something called fences around the places israeli (jews) live!

Yes. Why don't you ask the dear Arabs why they don't feel the need to put fences around their communities and post guards to watch the perimeters day and night.

There's a pattern developing here. Tell me when the penny drops.

Quote[/b] ]If I was mustafa I wouldn't expect you turning up for a cup of coffee on my patio

There were many years where this was the norm and it was mutual.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well that is very credible to hear after your facist-calling ethnic clensing -comments. You don't believe that even yourself do you?

You are actually very wrong - and most people on this forum will support me in my claim! Well, your sympathies are beyond any doubt well placed within a certain category as well.

Quote[/b] ]Thanks for the information. And BTW lets let Mr.Satre to rest in his grave.

No can do! I happen to greatly enjoy art and knowledge/philosophy - unlike other people I don't want to become ignorant!

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]I can only assume you're referring to the refugee camps.

No, I am not. I am referring to the camps created when settlements are surrounded and closed off by walls, with gates controlled by the IDF who dictates who and when gets in and out.

Quote[/b] ]It was a precondition presented by Israel, who were stupid enough to believe that the hosting government was reliable in their assurances.

And that government honored the agreement. The agreement was that the conference wouldnt touch on the subject of the mid-east. And it wont.

Quote[/b] ]When the Swedish government blundered and assured the ambassador that there would be no such offensive works at the exhibit, this is what can happen.

There was no assurance made in regards to any exhibit. It was always about the conference, and just the conference. Because that is the only thing that the government can control.

Quote[/b] ]The same thing that's bad for you being an artist in Israel.

I dont think so. Sweden has never attacked any jewish property or vandalized their art.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]It's obvious however that it was a publicity stunt

Well I think he was genuinely angry and had every right to be (but not to a point of vandalizing). Or do you really believe he just decided to throw things around because MOSSAD adviced him to promote sympathy for Israel? Nice theory!  :P

That's your theory, not mine. His actions were fully consistent with the backbone of Israel's foregin policy.

What a vague (as in blah-blah) thing to say. What policy is that? Where else has such an "established policy" been enacted?

Quote[/b] ]As a matter of fact, as he said in an interview with Haaretz, he had planned this before attending the exhibit. Which puts a dent on the theory that it was an impulsive action.

There was no theory. He said this very early on. Mazel found out about the exhibit on Friday, the day before the exhibition.

He said himself that at that point, after all the assurances given by the Swedish government that this would not happen, he was not going to take this passively.

BTW, is this an established Swedish policy?

When he arrived, he was even more shock in actually seeing it than he had imagined how he would feel.

And he decided to go through with it.

Quote[/b] ]To answer your previous question, no, I don't understand how normal people could find the exhibit insulting. It takes a hard-core right wing Israeli (such as Avon) to find it objectionable.

It take a left wing crazed fanatic European (like Denoir) to ignore it.

Quote[/b] ]And then again, it's on a strictly political level because they cannot in their mind imagine Israel in any way being involved in anything negative.

Another false generality.

Quote[/b] ]Hence, the mere mention of the fate of her brother and cousin must be an attack on the state of Israel.

No. The concealing from the public that one or both of their deaths was caused by their being terrorists, and the equation of their deaths to those of the people in Maxim's restaurant is the affront to Israel and it should be to any decent human being. Seems like very few exist.

Quote[/b] ]And anybody who attacks the state of Israel must be an anti-semite

There's no lack of them.

Quote[/b] ]and nazi.

Once again a false generality.

[Akira 0]

It is disgusting and revolting, but not because of the exhibit itself. It's disgusting and revolting if somebody chooses to press the button. And it reflects on that person that pushed the button, not the artist.

Well obviously. I wasn't saying the set up nor the idea of fish in blenders was disgusting, I was saying the chance to take another life (pushing the button), whether it be an "inconsequential" fish or not, is disgusting, and as I said the person that did press the button should be kicked in the head.

Remove the threat of fish puree, and I just woulda thought it was just a clever way to display fish.

Quote[/b] ]And the consequences are directly visible, as opposed to other 'button pushing' activities, such as launching cruise missiles or nuclear weapons.

Given. But I still say the moral dilemma meant to be presented is a false one.

Understand this is from the viewpoint of someone who watches my asshat Americans do stupid shit all the time. Had that exhibit been in the US and I guarentee there would have been more than just one fish killled in the production of that fish. That's what really pisses me off, and why I'm makin' plans to leave.

Quote[/b] ]Becuase the same ethics about treatment of animals does not apply to treatment of human beings. This gives an opportunity to illustrate such a dillemma without breaking the law.

Why is that? Because humans are so superior? So does that make it alright to wipe out species? Certainly not. Yes I like to eat tasty beef and tasty chicken and tasty bacon, but at least their death is sustaining life. It's nature, or as nature-ish as evolution and technology allows. I'd love to be a vegetarian, but until they make bacon stop tasting so damn good I won't be. Ah the dilemma of animal lover.

But I digress...

When speaking of my exhibit, I was not speaking of lethal choices. Inflicting pain on another would be ample illustration to the moral dilemma the artist wants to convey, and at least the participants had the free-will to be involved, though it has been done before. Remember the pschology experiment that did the very same thing?

Perhaps an even more interesting exhibit would have been the same set up, except if someone presses the button, they get shocked as the fishy watches. Ha! Woulda liked to see that.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a Betta owner, and will be really sad when he goes to the Big Bowl In The Sky, which why I was irked to such an extreme at that exhibit. Would I have been just as irked if there was, say, another living thing in there? Probably not but still would have argued against it in its present form.

EDIT: Anyhoo I see we are on to other things now so I won't say anymore about this

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Yes! Let's assume conspiracy, the default assumption when an Israeli is involved!

So now a political agenda equals conspiracy? Wow....