The Iraq thread 4

[Wilco 944]

 I'm supposed to believe your postings aren't? God forbid some one ever post something positive.

   

Exactly, god forbid anything like that, because we do nothing positive to help the Iraqi people, nothing at all.

[Wilco 944]

I'm supposed to believe your postings aren't? God forbid some one ever post something positive.

It's about the sources. Army News Service? Hardly an unbiased or serious source, especially during a time of war. You won't find me posting equivalents from the other side (Al Jazeera editorials, Mudjahedeen News Service,..whatever)

Don't take me wrong, I don't want people to stop posting such material. It's really a hillarious read because it's so transparent and so reminiscent of cold war Soviet propaganda or current official communiqués from North Korea. It has a nostalgic, almost cult quality not to mention that it serves as a reminder how little things actually change over time.

I enjoy those posts for aesthetic reasons, not for their content. It's about the style of the desperate denial of the reality on the ground.

And the fact that Wilco posts these things without a hint of sarcasm or any reflection at all, makes it even better.

Quote[/b] ]Bottom line is this, what the fuck point are the reserves if you can never use them?

National Guard. As the name implies, to guard the territorial integrity of the US. They're "weekend warriors", not professionally trained soldiers. The shit they are asked to do in Iraq is not what they have been trained or equipped for. Cut them some slack.

Why don't you post any news/stories that is positive towards the U.S.? Why is it always faults and miscalculations of the U.S. War effort in Iraq?

[denoir 0]

Why don't you post any news/stories that is positive towards the U.S.?  Why is it always faults and miscalculations of the U.S. War effort in Iraq?

I'm posting stories that are reported by accredited media that has a goal of showing an unbiased picture of what is going on in Iraq.

There is a lack of positive stories, because there is very little positive to say. We're looking at a situation in Iraq where dozens of people are killed each day, where the resistance has turned into more or less open warfare, 100,000+ civilians have died and the situation is getting worse by the day. In this context, you're posting a story about two Iraqi soldiers helping a wounded US soldier. It's like when reporting on the sinking of the Titanic to talk about how Mrs. Peters had a lovely evening dress!

For each of these micro-level positive stories, you are forgetting that there are countless more micro-level tragic stories. The situation overall is so bad that it's quite pointless to report such small-scale stories concerning individuals. That's why you won't find people here posting the tragic mircro-level stories: of individual losses, of families destroyed etc

So as far as content goes, the things you post are not worth anything. As for style goes, they are impeccable, and that's why I enjoy them. And that's because you choose blatantly biased sources with an overt agenda - for instance the "Army News Service". Their mission is not to report unbiased news - their goal is to improve morale i.e propaganda. Personally, I enjoy reading it as it is so direct and so transparent that it's in class with cold war Soviet propaganda.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Or perhaps they expected the same treatment as their commander-in-chief got when he did his national guard service.  

I love how you try to exploit our president with little uneccasary comments  , it makes me giggle.

I'm glad that I'm returning the favour as I am often very amused by your regular posting of unadulterated propaganda

Propoganda?

If you mean by the stories and pictures, that isn't propoganda, I see so much negative things about how the U.S. isn't supposed to be in Iraq and how soldiers aren't doing their job right, what is that called?  Your stories and my stories are factual, and that is all.

please let me know when Army news admits that some of its soldiers are less than courteous to the Iraqi citizens.

if both of your stories are factual, then why is it that some others would call CNN a propaganda machine?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Why don't you post any news/stories that is positive towards the U.S.?  Why is it always faults and miscalculations of the U.S. War effort in Iraq?

why don't you, Sputnik, Billybob seldom, if ever, post negative news about Iraq? the situation is still a work in progress despite TBA's claim nearly 2 yrs ago. If it was to be what TBA tried to sell, the US troops would be out of the country by now, instead of loosing 1000 troops, and many more due to injuries.

[Wilco 944]

Why don't you post any news/stories that is positive towards the U.S.?  Why is it always faults and miscalculations of the U.S. War effort in Iraq?

I'm posting stories that are reported by accredited media that has a goal of showing an unbiased picture of what is going on in Iraq.

There is a lack of positive stories, because there is very little positive to say. We're looking at a situation in Iraq where dozens of people are killed each day, where the resistance has turned into more or less open warfare, 100,000+ civilians have died and the situation is getting worse by the day. In this context, you're posting a story about two Iraqi soldiers helping a wounded US soldier. It's like when reporting on the sinking of the Titanic to talk about how Mrs. Peters had a lovely evening dress!

For each of these micro-level positive stories, you are forgetting that there are countless more micro-level tragic stories. The situation overall is so bad that it's quite pointless to report such small-scale stories concerning individuals. That's why you won't find people here posting the tragic mircro-level stories: of individual losses, of families destroyed etc

So as far as content goes, the things you post are not worth anything. As for style goes, they are impeccable, and that's why I enjoy them. And that's because you choose blatantly biased sources with an overt agenda - for instance the "Army News Service". Their mission is not to report unbiased news - their goal is to improve morale i.e propaganda. Personally, I enjoy reading it as it is so direct and so transparent that it's in class with cold war Soviet propaganda.

Being serious about this, where do you get your stories from?

www.reuters.com?

Ofcourse there are going to be countless more stories of tragedies then positive ones, it's war, war is a tragedy in itself, but stories of Marines helping out local schools is biased? Sure it's used to boost morale, but it's fact that we are helping out Iraqi people in time of war by rebuilding schools and whatnot. You can call it a "micro-level" positive story, but what do you expect? War isn't positive, and I'm sure those guys are doing their best to help out the civilians over there.

I don't forget the "micro-tragic" stories, I hear too many tragic stories every day on the news yet nothing positive, I felt like changing the routine and trying to add something positive, but I see noone wants these stories to have a place here.

By the way, god damn I hate your sarcasm.

[Wilco 944]

Why don't you post any news/stories that is positive towards the U.S.?  Why is it always faults and miscalculations of the U.S. War effort in Iraq?

why don't you, Sputnik, Billybob seldom, if ever, post negative news about Iraq? the situation is still a work in progress despite TBA's claim nearly 2 yrs ago. If it was to be what TBA tried to sell, the US troops would be out of the country by now, instead of loosing 1000 troops, and many more due to injuries.

Because that job is already filled on this forum.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Or perhaps they expected the same treatment as their commander-in-chief got when he did his national guard service.  

I love how you try to exploit our president with little uneccasary comments  , it makes me giggle.

I'm glad that I'm returning the favour as I am often very amused by your regular posting of unadulterated propaganda

Propoganda?

If you mean by the stories and pictures, that isn't propoganda, I see so much negative things about how the U.S. isn't supposed to be in Iraq and how soldiers aren't doing their job right, what is that called?  Your stories and my stories are factual, and that is all.

please let me know when Army news admits that some of its soldiers are less than courteous to the Iraqi citizens.

if both of your stories are factual, then why is it that some others would call CNN a propaganda machine?

Oh I know soldiers mistreat civilians, that's common in most wars, it's nothing new.

Why doesn't reuters/unbiased sites post stories of positive things soldiers do?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Why doesn't reuters/unbiased sites post stories of positive things soldiers do?

Quote[/b] ]War isn't positive

Quote[/b] ]Because that job is already filled on this forum.

your intent was to add positive news to the situation. however, you also criticized that denoir and others do not post positive news, i.e. stories that will contradict their own story or dilute their position. yet when I asked you why you don't do the same thing, i.e. balancing posts with stories that would contradict your position, you say 'someone else is doing it.'

[russin 0]

i hope we get too see Sadam Hang from Neck soon

[bonko the sane 2]

This isn't the Vietnam war, that one ended long ago.

It sure is starting to look like a deja vu though...

p.s: i dont hope to see Saddam hang, independently of how i feel about the death penalty, thats simply not a productive action to take, violence on breeds violence, and they would make a martyr out of him, i dont think they would take that chance.

[denoir 0]

I don't forget the "micro-tragic" stories, I hear too many tragic stories every day on the news yet nothing positive, I felt like changing the routine and trying to add something positive, but I see noone wants these stories to have a place here.

On the contrary, as I said, I do enjoy them and I don't want you to stop posting them. I like them because they are in such absurd denial of reality - "Airplane crashes; Surviving passanger says the in-flight meal was quite good"

Quote[/b] ]By the way, god damn I hate your sarcasm.

Apart from the "Titanic" reference, there was no sarcasm in my post. I'm dead serious about the irrelevance of the content and the appealing stereotypical propaganda style.

Quote[/b] ]

Being serious about this, where do you get your stories from?

www.reuters.com?

Sure, reuters is a fairly good source. Personally I reference BBC in most cases. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/ )

Quote[/b] ]Ofcourse there are going to be countless more stories of tragedies then positive ones, it's war, war is a tragedy in itself, but stories of Marines helping out local schools is biased?  Sure it's used to boost morale, but it's fact that we are helping out Iraqi people in time of war by rebuilding schools and whatnot

It's a question of proportion and representation. While upbeat these stories arn't very representative of the general situation. As it's impossible to cover everything at a micro-level, it's better to skip it alltogether. We're talking about the bigger picture here; something representative of what is going on in Iraq. There will always be small positive things, but in context of a war where people are dying every day and where the situation is readily getting worse, telling a story of a Marine helping an old woman cross the street is irrelevant. That kind of detail is just noise. And when you elevate it to the status of other posts that cover a much broader picture, it leads to misrepresentation.

In one post somebody tells how a car bomb kills 100 Iraqis and then in another somebody else tells how a US soldier adopted an Iraqi orphan. The micro and macro levels get equivalent status, which give a twisted picture. Hell, the nice human story is far more likable, so chances are people are more likely to remember it than yet another car bomb.

And in ten years time, the images that stick with you will be of US soldiers rebuilding schools, handing out candy to children and adopting orphans while being loved by the Iraqi people. So when the plans to "liberate" another country comes, you will have forgotten the real picture and readily support another war. If you only select information you like, you won't learn anything.

This is especially important to observe for Americans. It requires discipline to accept a reality that you don't approve of. I know it is difficult when you feel your country is being attacked from all sides. I don't envy your position, but the solution isn't to isolate yourself with information that you approve of and dismiss the rest. It's far more productive to try to get a clear picture as possible and analyze why people are so critical of the actions of your country. It will certainly make things easier for you in the long run.

[red oct 2]

Good news? things in Iraq are so grim right now that the trickle of "good news" is so depressing you can't even really call it good news, example a 11-year-old Iraqi boy named Majid Fadhil Babor arived in my state to recieve prosthetic legs after having his real legs blown off in a bomb blast. sounds great, only thing i can think of that would be better is if he hadn't lost his legs in the first place.

oh, we won't have to worry about people whining about long deployments in Iraq because nobody is joining the National Guard. recruitment has be down by 30% in the last 8 weeks.

lets see, any more good news? well apparently Iraqi security personal are more hated the U.S. forces. maybe our soldiers can finally sit down and eat lunch in peace w/out getting blown up by a suicide bomber.

1,336 fatalities and rising, but hey, at least we still have Poland.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]but hey, at least we still have Poland.

   If I was a Pole I'd fucking hate America because of that catch phrase. They help us and the American people look down their noses and spit on them. To the average American pig twenty Poles aren't worth one Frenchman. While the Polish fight along side us as friends and allies they are lambasted and shit on by all the late night comedians and their flock of disciples.

   You spit on and belittle our real allies and cry and beg for our two non true friends to  "forgive" us.  

    Personally I believe Americans are weak, they have no spine no back bone. They can't hack it in any situation. When the going gets tough the Americans will always cower and run home. Americans can't make any sacrifice or take any kind of hit with out giving up.

     There is that quote about war being a series of disasters in which eventually one side is declared the winner. It's true. I have no illusions about the war in Iraq being a pretty and polite affair, no war ever is. That's the problem with the western world though, they don't get it. The moment something ugly happens they cry like little girls and ask "how could something like this happen in war?". War will never be nice or polite and you can never win a war by trying to make it that way.

     Any way cheer up Denoir and crew. The war is lost America will lose. Peace and democracy will not happen in Iraq. As a matter of fact I believe America will never succeed again. This is the beginning of the decline and fall of the great satan.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]but hey, at least we still have Poland.

   If I was a Pole I'd fucking hate America because of that catch phrase. They help us and the American people look down their noses and spit on them. To the average American pig twenty Poles aren't worth one Frenchman. While the Polish fight along side us as friends and allies they are lambasted and shit on by all the late night comedians and their flock of disciples.

   You spit on and belittle our real allies and cry and beg for our two non true friends to  "forgive" us.  

Actually, just like the British people, the Poles were against invading Iraq in the first place. It is a lack of synchronization between the people and those in power. And the politicians are getting it - albeit a bit too late. Poland has said it will withdraw all its troops from Iraq during 2005.

Quote[/b] ]Personally I believe Americans are weak, they have no spine no back bone. They can't hack it in any situation. When the going gets tough the Americans will always cower and run home. Americans can't make any sacrifice or take any kind of hit with out giving up.

Easy to say from the comfortable chair you are sitting in. People like you didn't even have the guts to take responsibility for the mess by at least electing a new president. What America needs less of are spineless, flag waving armchair warriors.

A lot of your countrymen realize this, I'm sorry that you don't.

Quote[/b] ]There is that quote about war being a series of disasters in which eventually one side is declared the winner. It's true. I have no illusions about the war in Iraq being a pretty and polite affair, no war ever is. That's the problem with the western world though, they don't get it. The moment something ugly happens they cry like little girls and ask "how could something like this happen in war?". War will never be nice or polite and you can never win a war by trying to make it that way.

Very nice revisionist history there. The question is not "how could something like this happen in a war?", the question is Why the fuck did you start this war?. We warned you against it in every possible way. We said that it would become just like it is today. But no, you had to free Iraq from non-existing WMD and bomb the living daylight out of people that were not your biggest fans in the first place - to win their heart and mind. Go figure.

Quote[/b] ]Any way cheer up Denoir and crew. The war is lost America will lose. Peace and democracy will not happen in Iraq. As a matter of fact I believe America will never succeed again. This is the beginning of the decline and fall of the great satan.

Ah, the enlightened approach, that we're all so fond of:

January 2003:

-Don't invade Iraq. You'll end up with a mess killing countless innocent people and you'll risk destabilizing the region. There's no evidence of any real threat from Iraq; let the UN continue its work, which has obviously worked so far.

- Why do you hate America so much?

January 2005:

-Look at the mess. We told you not to go. Tens of thousands of dead Iraqis and a constantly deteriorating situation. Next time, fucking listen to what the world says and you'll avoid such a mess in the future.

-Why do you hate America so much?

The sad part is that you obviously havn't learned anything. Do you realize that the war was a mistake? That it has been a series of poorly planned and executed mistakes?

It is exactly this that people opposed to the war wanted to avoid. This includes the 1,000+ dead American soldiers. What kind of twisted mind you must have to come to the conclusion that the people trying to protect you and the Iraqis are somehow against you.

-Don't jump off that bridge, you'll get hurt.

-Fuck you, I'll jump if I want.

[Jumps, smacks into concrete below]

-You see, I told you not to jump. Perhaps you'll listen to me next time. You've broken your spine, your arms, your legs and a large number of ribs.

-Happy now? I'll be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life.

-Uh? I was the one who told you not to jump.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]but hey, at least we still have Poland.

If I was a Pole I'd fucking hate America because of that catch phrase. They help us and the American people look down their noses and spit on them. To the average American pig twenty Poles aren't worth one Frenchman. While the Polish fight along side us as friends and allies they are lambasted and shit on by all the late night comedians and their flock of disciples.

Actually, most of the polish people oppose the war but their goverment insisted on licking the boots of TBA.

But don't worry, they plan pulling out some time this year if I recall correctly.

EDIT: Ach, denoir posted his reply while I was typing mine.

[red oct 2]

if Poland wanted to be angry at us about the war, they would be angry about us having dragged them into it and the fact that for some retarded reason the Bush administration hasn't been giving them reconstruction contracts. we told them the reasons for war in Iraq were because Saddam had nuclear weapons, he was going to give them to terrorists and had conection's to 9/11. and i believed it but than the commision investigating 9/11 said he had no weapons, there were no terrorist cell's before the war, and documents claiming he was getting uranium from africia were false. and im am not spitting on their help, i am very grateful for their help but im not going to run around shouting how a force of 2,500 is wonderful news when we have states back here sending far more than that and spending a average of 3 billion a month. and another thing, stop taking the failures of the administration you support out on us.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

Quote[/b] ]There have been 1,505 coalition troop deaths, 1,354 Americans, 76 Britons, seven Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 16 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and nine Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of January 7, 2005. The list below is the names of the soldiers, Marines, airmen, sailors and Coast Guardsmen whose families have been notified of their deaths by each country's government. At least 10,252 U.S. troops have been wounded in action, according to the Pentagon. The Pentagon does not report the number of non-hostile wounded.

think about this casualty is above 10,000 already. of course the number of wounded includes minor ones like scratch on skin to serious lethal woulds that eventually kill the wounded.

but how come there are so many casualties? isn't Iraqis greeting US troops with flowers?

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Easy to say from the comfortable chair you are sitting in. People like you didn't even have the guts to take responsibility for the mess by at least electing a new president. What America needs less of are spineless, flag waving armchair warriors.

A lot of your countrymen realize this, I'm sorry that you don't.

   I can say the same about you. Easy to say from your nice cushy chair. how dare I have an opinion that isn't sanctioned be the UN or Denoir.

Quote[/b] ] The sad part is that you obviously haven’t learned anything. Do you realize that the war was a mistake? That it has been a series of poorly planned and executed mistakes?

    Actually I do think it was a mistake in hind sight. It was the right choice given the information at the time. What I Realize that you obviously don't is that what is done is done. We are there now and thus have to adapt. There is no clicking your heels three times and wishing you were back in Kansas.

     The goal going in was WMDs it turned out there weren't any or they have been moved. So now we have adapted and our goal now is to get these elections over and leave the shit hole to their own devices.  

    You live in the past. The past is done there is no changing that. I try to live in the present.

Quote[/b] ]but how come there are so many casualties?

    Casualties are a part of war. That being said this has been a small skirmish. The death toll so far barely compares to any of the real wars in the recent past. So if America and the rest of the western world can't hold up against that, how do they expect to ever hold up in a real war in the hypothetical future? Example: a possible war on the Korean peninsula where the daily death toll would eclipse the total death toll in Iraq on a daily basis?

Quote[/b] ]-Don't jump off that bridge, you'll get hurt.

-Fuck you, I'll jump if I want.

[Jumps, smacks into concrete below]

-You see, I told you not to jump. Perhaps you'll listen to me next time. You've broken your spine, your arms, your legs and a large number of ribs.

-Happy now? I'll be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life.

-Uh? I was the one who told you not to jump.

- Don't jump off that bridge you'll get hurt.

- It needs to be done, I've got a parachute plus allies with an air cushion at the bottom. If all works as planned every thing should turn out fine.

[Jumps, allies are convinced not to show up with the air bag, others scream "god no please don't do it" and grap hold of the jumpers legs as he jumps, jumper is knocked off balance and tumbles out of control because some one held him back by his legs, parachute fainlly deploys but is shot through with French missles, jumper smacks into concrete below]

-You see, I told you not to jump. (beside him self with joy) Perhaps you'll listen to me next time. (smirking)You've broken your spine, your arms, your legs and a large number of ribs(ponders: how can gain from this new position? Perhaps I should go kick him a little while he's down)

-Happy now? I'll be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life.

-Exellent...Uh I mean? I was the one who told you not to jump.

[ralphwiggum 6]

   I can say the same about you. Easy to say from your nice cushy chair. how dare I have an opinion that isn't sanctioned be the UN or Denoir.

difference is that those opposed to war was preaching for restraint while likes of you were not ready to face the consequence of the policy you guys are supporting.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ] The sad part is that you obviously haven’t learned anything. Do you realize that the war was a mistake? That it has been a series of poorly planned and executed mistakes?

Actually I do think it was a mistake in hind sight. It was the right choice given the information at the time. What I Realize that you obviously don't is that what is done is done. We are there now and thus have to adapt. There is no clicking your heels three times and wishing you were back in Kansas.

The goal going in was WMDs it turned out there weren't any or they have been moved. So now we have adapted and our goal now is to get these elections over and leave the shit hole to their own devices.

did you just realize what you said? you called current situation in Iraq a 'shit hole', which contradicts what White House says. then why are you whining about those in 'shit hole' complaining that they are there. afterall, the ones that ordered the deployment made mistake. you don't just say "oops sorry, I made mistake" and move on. you have to take the consequence.

at the time(2yrs ago) the 'evidence' that was given was circumstancial, if not questionable to begin with. look back at Iraq thread 1, and some other threads that dealt with the issues back then. of course, TBA and their supporters thought the evidence was concrete, but others were better and warned that it was not. now that it shows who is more capable of seeing things the way they are, maybe it is time to listen to european nations instead of heeding it.

Quote[/b] ] You live in the past. The past is done there is no changing that. I try to live in the present.

there is no past that is without future, and no future without past. TBA made mistake, and they have to pay for it. when most of the world was warning about going in to war with Iraq back in Jan of 2003, TBA brushed it off saying if no action was taken future would be worse. that was present back then.

if past is past, then maybe I can kill someone on information I currently have and avoid arrest for 20-30 years and then claim to be free of past? Maybe we should urge Germany to stop its work to make up for all the Holocost.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]but how come there are so many casualties?

Casualties are a part of war. That being said this has been a small skirmish. The death toll so far barely compares to any of the real wars in the recent past. So if America and the rest of the western world can't hold up against that, how do they expect to ever hold up in a real war in the hypothetical future? Example: a possible war on the Korean peninsula where the daily death toll would eclipse the total death toll in Iraq on a daily basis?

check my post above, and think of WHY they need to have reserve units sent to the war. also, there is no war in Korean peninsula so far. why would that be? no oil?

Quote[/b] ][Jumps, allies are convinced not to show up with the air bag, others scream "god no please don't do it" and grap hold of the jumpers legs as he jumps, jumper is knocked off balance and tumbles out of control because some one held him back by his legs, parachute fainlly deploys but is shot through with French missles, jumper smacks into concrete below]

did you realize something? it was YOU who jumped. YOU are responsible for your own work. stop blaming others.

[EiZei 0]

[Jumps, allies are convinced not to show up with the air bag, others scream "god no please don't do it" and grap hold of the jumpers legs as he jumps, jumper is knocked off balance and tumbles out of control because some one held him back by his legs, parachute fainlly deploys but is shot through with French missles, jumper smacks into concrete below]

So how this holding the jumper's legs corresponds with the real world? Are you saying that you fucked up because europe would not go along?

Maybe the jumper should have decided not to jump when the cushion people did not show up? Oh, guess he was "determined" and "on course."

Quote[/b] ]

I can say the same about you. Easy to say from your nice cushy chair. how dare I have an opinion that isn't sanctioned be the UN or Denoir.

I thought it was you who was preaching about pussying out and not being brave enough?

[denoir 0]

how dare I have an opinion that isn't sanctioned be the UN or Denoir.

One would expect a bit more humility and willingess to listen after what happened last time you refused to listen.

Quote[/b] ]Actually I do think it was a mistake in hind sight. It was the right choice given the information at the time.

The information at the time was that there was insufficient information to come to any conclusion. And that's what everybody was telling you. You were explicitly warned about the potential consequence and the fact that there was no solid evidence of active WMD production or deployment in Iraq. And the 2002-2003 UN inspections confirmed that containment did indeed work.

What you should have learned from that episode is that there is a very good reason for the slow an thorough international process through the UN. It's there to prevent exactly this kind of mindless rushes to war. It is what you then ridiculed as "inefficient" and "cowardly" that would have saved you from this disaster - not to mention the Iraqis.

Quote[/b] ]You live in the past. The past is done there is no changing that. I try to live in the present.

The past is relevant so that you understand how you got into the present position. Just declaring that Iraq is a mess, without thinking why it is that way is quite pointless. The idea is to learn from your mistakes to avoid them in the future.

Quote[/b] ]The death toll so far barely compares to any of the real wars in the recent past.

The tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians would disagree. And for what? Also, put it in context of the motivation of the whole thing. How seriously you took 3,000 of your own dead civilians. And now you've killed more than 30 times as many Iraqi civilians.

Not to mention, that this thing ain't over. If Iraq continues like this, it will end up like Afghanistan after the Soviet occupation - a terrorist haven. Not to mention that it will be a destabilizing factor in an already unstable region.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Sputnik Monroe @ Jan. 09 2005,21:03)

How dare I have an opinion that endorses three years of criminal incompetence and dishonesty.

Fixed.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]think about this casualty is above 10,000 already. of course the number of wounded includes minor ones like scratch on skin to serious lethal woulds that eventually kill the wounded.

5,000-something were able to reported back to duty. I forgot the exact number but I remember it was 5k-somethng.

Quote[/b] ]think of WHY they need to have reserve units sent to the war.

While this is the largest deployment of NG and reserve units since WWII, NG have been deployed in every major war since it was created. The cuts of the 90s and military size reduction in turn made the military stretched to a point. So, Iraq is a eye opener in a odd way.

......................................

You are rarely going to hear or read about the Iraqi police or military graduation that was not attacked; insurgents that been captured or killed planting a bomb (and etc.); the reconstruction (it still goes on...slowly); and etc. They do happen folks..

[Tex -USMC- 0]

While this is the largest deployment of NG and reserve units since WWII, NG have been deployed in every major war since it was created. Furthermore, you could blame the TCA (clinton years) for cutting two army divisions.

'blame' is the wrong word, because operations involving the US military that the Clinton administration anticipated occurring in Iraq were focussed on containment. Not only was the US military well suited to this task, but hindsight is making it clear every day that containment was an infinitely preferable alternative to the current situation. You can't launch into a war of aggression based on an utterly unprecedented set of policies and doctrines and then pass the buck to the previous administration that didn't share your outlook.