Bush to crack down on cuba now?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BUSH CONSIDERING SANCTIONS TO PUNISH CUBA FOR CRACKDOWN ON DISSIDENTS... possibility of cutting off cash payments to relatives in Cuba; halting direct flights to the island; president to issue stern warning to Castro that U.S. will not tolerate another exodus of rafters... MORE... <span id='postcolor'>

I'll post a link when I find one....

[Tovarish 0]

You know what i said in The Dogs of War thread about two assholes duking it out and civilians stuck in the middle suffering because of it? Here's another example. Castro decided his recent reforms and relaxation towards dissidents were loosening his leash on power too much and he pulled back hard, choking the press.

As a result now Bush will tighten sanctions which for over 40 years have done nothing but make life hard for ordinary Cubans.

*edit* and WTF does the "will not tolerate another exodus of rafters" mean if he's about to cause one?!

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 17 2003,03:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*edit* and WTF does the "will not tolerate another exodus of rafters" mean if he's about to cause one?!<span id='postcolor'>

I kinda wondered about that myself...he going to use that as a pretext to action? Dunno...the people in this administation are really beginning to worry me.

[Tovarish 0]

I've been hearing about this for a few days now, with varying degrees on the severity of the US action against Cuba, but it's mostly been rumors circling around with the Cubans I know, and couldn't find a link myself to confirm anything. I've even heard talk of focusing on "Cuba's ties with Terror" - as if some of the exiles in the States don't have blood on their hands! - But if it goes this way, it wouldn't surprize me to see a Bay of Pigs II, and this time I doubt the US would pull back air support.

[edc 0]

Well, honestly I think Castro's a problem, but he's probably gonna die pretty soon, then we'll probably send a few troops in just to make sure a democracy is set up.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ April 17 2003,03:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, honestly I think Castro's a problem, but he's probably gonna die pretty soon, then we'll probably send a few troops in just to make sure a democracy is set up.<span id='postcolor'>

The US's puppet government was obviously a bigger problem, as Castro's rebellion was immensely popular. The US has about as good a record of upholding democracy and human rights in Latin America as they do with friendly fire, so it is the last country that should be crying foul over the lack of democracy in Cuba. It wasn't a problem to your country while it was your dictator who was in power in Cuba.

[FSPilot 0]

Lets just send them lots of grilled ham and cheese sandwiches. kill him with cholesterol.

[hellfish6 7]

Has sanctions ever toppled a regime? No... I can't think of a single time. We've had some pretty harsh restrictions on Cuba for 40 years now, and nothing has changed. And we've had restrictions on Iraq for 12, and nothing changed till we finally, illegally, invaded.

If I was Bush, and I'm glad I'm not, I'd lift all sanctions to Cuba and flood them with cruise ships and beachfront resorts. Bring them to capitalism. See how long Cuba remains totalitarian.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ April 17 2003,04:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I was Bush, and I'm glad I'm not, I'd lift all sanctions to Cuba and flood them with cruise ships and beachfront resorts. Bring them to capitalism. See how long Cuba remains totalitarian.<span id='postcolor'>

Which is what I've been saying should happen all along. Give Cuba the same treatment China is getting. Unfortunately there are quite a few ultra-right-wing Cubans in Florida who US politicians cater to, and they would have none of that.

Idiotically short sighted and idealistically blinded people, just like the communists - They don't care who suffers as long as their ideals are satisfied.

[second_draw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hellfish6 @ April 17 2003,04:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Has sanctions ever toppled a regime? No... I can't think of a single time.<span id='postcolor'>

but I'm sure it has made all the residents really p!ssed off.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 17 2003,03:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets just send them lots of grilled ham and cheese sandwiches.  kill him with cholesterol.<span id='postcolor'>

actually, I heard that CIA tried to assasinate Castro by putting poisin in his favorite chocolate drink in a Cuban Hotel. failed for some reason.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 17 2003,04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 17 2003,03:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets just send them lots of grilled ham and cheese sandwiches.  kill him with cholesterol.<span id='postcolor'>

actually, I heard that CIA tried to assasinate Castro by putting poisin in his favorite chocolate drink in a Cuban Hotel. failed for some reason.<span id='postcolor'>

The poison tablet the assasin was to put in the drink was frozen solid to the side of the freezer. And that was one of just 8 confirmed CIA assasination attempts

[ralphwiggum 6]

send Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Hansens, NSync, BackStreet boys and Avril Lavigne. their annoyance will lead Castro to suicide.

and for his followers, we can have congratutory concert by Celine Dion to wipe them out.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 17 2003,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">send Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Hansens, NSync, BackStreet boys and Avril Lavigne. their annoyance will lead Castro to suicide.

and for his followers, we can have congratutory concert by Celine Dion to wipe them out. <span id='postcolor'>

Ok, so 9 confirmed failures. They're already there . When I went back in '98, I was dismayed when I walked into a nightclub with some old friends and they were playing the Backstreet Boys.

*edit* Gee Ralphie, do I have to tell you of all people to stay on topic?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 17 2003,04:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 17 2003,04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 17 2003,03:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets just send them lots of grilled ham and cheese sandwiches.  kill him with cholesterol.<span id='postcolor'>

actually, I heard that CIA tried to assasinate Castro by putting poisin in his favorite chocolate drink in a Cuban Hotel. failed for some reason.<span id='postcolor'>

The poison tablet the assasin was to put in the drink was frozen solid to the side of the freezer. And that was one of just 8 confirmed CIA assasination attempts<span id='postcolor'>

I remember one involved a birthday cake lol

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 17 2003,04:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 17 2003,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">send Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Hansens, NSync, BackStreet boys and Avril Lavigne. their annoyance will lead Castro to suicide.

and for his followers, we can have congratutory concert by Celine Dion to wipe them out. <span id='postcolor'>

Ok, so 9 confirmed failures. They're already there . When I went back in '98, I was dismayed when I walked into a nightclub with some old friends and they were playing the Backstreet Boys.<span id='postcolor'>

ahh crap! man i cry for their souls.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*edit* Gee Ralphie, do I have to tell you of all people to stay on topic? <span id='postcolor'>

now you know how i feel when i have to say it.

back on serious note:

does economic opening necessarily mean the Castro regime will loose its grip? I don't think so. China, for example, despite openning its economy still has some hold on their citizens. and even in Cuba today, there are small amount of capitalism going through the basic living. so most Cubans are now doing away with socialism and is accepting capitalism.

but their national pride won't get rid of Castro. but infatuation with Castro's stubborness will. If anything brings Cuba down, i think Cuban ppl are the ones.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 17 2003,05:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">back on serious note:

does economic opening necessarily mean the Castro regime will loose its grip? I don't think so. China, for example, despite openning its economy still has some hold on their citizens. and even in Cuba today, there are small amount of capitalism going through the basic living. so most Cubans are now doing away with socialism and is accepting capitalism.

but their national pride won't get rid of Castro. but infatuation with Castro's stubborness will. If anything brings Cuba down, i think Cuban ppl are the ones.<span id='postcolor'>

I mostly agree with you, but getting rid of the embargo would be an important gesture of good will that just might show a large number of Cubans that the US need not be their enemy. With a freer economy you will also get freer exchange of ideas. Eventually it would get to the point where Castro wouldn't be able to silence dissidents. There's also the fact that because of how close Cuba is to the US, they are much more exposed to US culture than the average Chinese. For example, even though it is illegal, many Cubans can watch American channels on their TVs.

Unfortunately the US has always tried a different approach with Cuba, one which, considering their past there and other parts of Latin America, only gives credibility to Castro among Cubans.

[Warin 0]

I am totally going to agree with Tovarish on this one.

First because he's likely one of the only people here with a first hand understanding of the realities of life in Cuba.

Second because he hits the nail right on the head when he talks about the rather hypocritical US policies, when you compare US relations with CHina to those of Cuba.

Sadly, Shrub seems to think beating up on Cuba is a good way to garner votes in Florida. Sadly, that might just work

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I thought we already established that Florida voters don't matter?

But yeah, I think we should end the embargo; it isn't helping make Cuba any less communist. At this point it's just petty.

Either that or we strip China of their MFN status and stop buying our party favors from them. And officially recognize Taiwan as a country. But that's just me

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 17 2003,05:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I thought we already established that Florida voters don't matter?

But yeah, I think we should end the embargo; it isn't helping make Cuba any less communist. At this point it's just petty.

Either that or we strip China of their MFN status and stop buying our party favors from them. And officially recognize Taiwan as a country. But that's just me<span id='postcolor'>

We shoulda recognized Taiwan long ago...I mean LONG ago...but thats just me.

We should also strip the embargos on Cuba, and re-establish all diplomatic ties. The sanctions are old, out-moded, reactions from a by-gone era of Communist "threat." The Cold War is over and the time when Cuba was but a pawn between the USSR and US is over. It's time to move on.

[Tovarish 0]

Either of you two running for President anytime soon?

[Akira 0]

Bush And Cuba

Here is an actual article.

[hellfish6 7]

While China may still claim to be communists, look REALLY hard at them - are they? Can communism and capitalism go hand in hand? Of course not. China (mainland) is a kind of socialist uniparty semi-democracy.

Believe it or not, capitalism HAS had an effect on China. There are now free and open (and, suprisingly, fair!) elections in rural China. These elections, I am sure, will spread gradually.

As radical as China may appear to be at times, they are by no means reckless. They're not going to become democratic overnight, but it looks like they are slowly moving towards it. Surely this is not the same Chinese government as Mao Tse-Tung, nor is it the government that endorsed the Cultural Revolution. This is a slow development and you have to remember that China is a 5000 year old country. They have a very long memory.

Radical changes in government do not work, and the chinese know this from their own history as well as modern world events. The communists alone took some 20 years to come to power. Also, China has never had a democracy before - ever. Chiang was a generalissimo - no different than Franco in Spain or Pinochet in Chile.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At the same time, the president is expected to issue a stern warning to the Havana government that the United States will not tolerate another exodus of rafters, the officials said. Several times during Mr. Castro's 44-year tenure, most notably in 1980 and 1994, he has relieved internal tensions by allowing mass migrations to Florida.

<snip>

In addition, Havana last week executed three men who commandeered a ferry and sought to reach the United States, the third such hijacking attempt in a month.

<span id='postcolor'>

Almost funny to see that two paragraphs appart. Surely Castro isn't doing enough to prevent an exodus  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said on Tuesday that Cuba "has always had a horrible human rights record," but, he added, "It's getting worse."<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah...it's nearly like it was during the Batista years.  

[black__bird 0]

we atleast need to lift the import sanctions on Cuba, man those cigars kick ass.....

Seriously i like the idea of flooding them with cruise ships and hotels, hell i would go, always heard it was a nice country asside from all the Commies, but we got them in the USA now as well (Al Gore)