"is putin looking to expand the chechnya war?"

[red oct 2]

Quote from Newsweek article.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Will Vladimir Putin make a pre-emptive strike of his own? In Moscow, rumors are swirling of an impending Russian military move against Georgia. A source close to the Russian General Staff has told NEWSWEEK that military leaders have completed planning for an assault on the Pankisi Gorge, a remot canyon that has been used as a hidout by rebels from neighboring Chechnya. Other sources say that Russian officers have already been issued tactical maps for use in the operation. The Russian and Georgians have been at loggerheads over the canyon hideout for months. Moscow accuses Georgian leader Eduard Shevardnadze of giving shelter to terrorists; the Georgians complain about Russian incursions into their airspace. Last month Putin sent a note to the U.N. Security Council-couched in terms that conspicuously resembled President George W. Bush's arguments for an attack on Iraq- warning that Russia might have to make use of its right to self-defense if the Georgians didn't act against the Chechen rebels. Not long after that, though, guerrillas entered Russian territory from the gorge, killing 11 Russian soldiers. Analysts in Moscow point out that the Russian military preparations can't be goin unnoticed in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, and might just be part of a Russian war of nerves against the Georgians. (And indeed Putin has yet to give the final go-ahead to his generals.) Late last week Georgia suddenly moved to extradite five suspected Chechen militants to Russia-a sign, perhaps, of growing nervousness on the Georgian side. A Russian attack on Georgia could put the White House in a quandary. It has been trying to help the Georgians cope with the pankisi problem by training and equpping Georgia's generally ineffectual Army. It's also been examining, in response to a Russian request, hot the Georgians can build a demilitarized zone on their side of the border that might prevent further inflitration by rebels. The White House has repeatedly said that it doesn't want to see any moves by the Russians that would impinge on Georgia's sovereignty, but at the same time, Bush has made it clear that he won't allow Russia's conduct in Chechnya to jeopardize the antiterroist partnership between Moscow and Washington. Still, Georgia may not be the only issue facing the Russian-American alliance. At the end of the last week Putin issueda decree that could lead to the closure of the Moscow office of U.S.-sponsored Radio Free Europe-Radio Liberty. It's not suprising that the ex-KGB officer would hate a radior station created during the cold war to broadcast American-style news deep behind the Iron Curtain. But until recently, Putin had only hinted at his dilike. Now the Station's fate is in limb. At the very least, station staffers say, they will lose access to Russian politicians leery of crossing the Kremlin. Putin has made war on the press since taking office in January 2000. the Radio Free Europe station had continued to broadcast critical reporting- especially about the war in Chechnya.

-CHIRISTIAN CARYL<span id='postcolor'>

phew! my hands hurt from all that typing!

[Tovarish 0]

Sure they have the manpower. If anything Russia does have is manpower. They may be lacking in equipment, but Georgia has much less. It's obvious that Chechens are using Georgia as a haven, but I doubt the government there approves of it. It is just that their army isn't much to speak of and they can't do much about it. I think Russia should first offer to help Georgia with their security problem before attacking, but maybe they know/suspect something we dont.... In any case I feel this is just another example of the bad precedent being set by George Bush's preemtive strike doctrine.

<span style='color:red'>*edit*</span> Just to expand on why I doubt the Georgians would be aiding the Chechen extremists...I must admit I know very little about the country and it's ethnic/religious makeup, but from what I've seen, Georgians share the same ethnic background as Russians, look exactly like Russians and speak Russian. I know two Georgian girls here in Canada.  When I first met both of them I was certain they were Russian, not even the accent was different. And I know for a fact that one of them is a devout Orthodox Christian...so I really don't see why Georgians would be pourposefuly aiding muslim extreemists.

[red oct 2]

well i don't think Putin is really gona declare a all out war on Georgia, just send troops into this canyon hideout mentioned in the article.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The Georgian central government is very weak, and doesn't have enough power to evict the rebels from the country, without making expenditures that their country can't afford right now. Rest assured, there is little love lost between Russia and Georgia, and Putin's apparent desire to restore Russia's influence in many of the former soviet socialist republics isn't helping, but I seriously doubt that Georgia would purposely do something like this to piss Russia off. Crippled or not, Russia is still the 800-pound gorilla in the area.

If Russia did actually go as far as to invade Georgia, then the shit would hit the fan in that area. Russia can barely afford Chechnya, much less an expanded conflict, and Georgia is sure to ask for outside assistance, and maybe even get it. Did I mention that the area has never been known for its stability?

lol

[Tovarish 0]

They should be doing this in cooperation of the Georgian army though...unless the Georgian government really isn't interested in fixing the problem, and then the Russians would have a case...but I know that the airstrikes a few weeks back are reported to have caused some civilian casualties, , and IMO they came without much warning. I don't know many of the concrete facts but it really seems like unnecessary bad blood is being created between Russians and Georgians.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

The Russians need to to tell Georgia that they will help fight the rebels, but if Georgia will not listen, and not help Russia, then Russia has every right to go into that Canyon and get the terrorist.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

There's a problem though- Russia has had a history where, once you let their military into your country, you have a hard time getting them to leave, even if the job is done. Allowing Russia to just waltz into their country and conduct an operation similar to what has turned Chechnya into the paradise it is today, just isn't sound politics. Georgia has made an effort, by requesting US military advisors (Green Beanies) to help them with rooting these guys out, but Georgia can't do it alone, and letting Russia help will probably create an even bigger problem for Georgia. But hey, that problem would be solved just as soon as Georgia is re-re-annexed (lol) by Russia.

[Badgerboy 0]

Remember though, now it's okay to invade countries you suspect are involved with terrorism!

'WAR ON TERROR' - Clause 5, subsection 2.

[Chill 0]

Lets not forget that Chechnya is fighting for idependence and they are not terrorist!Chechnya has a vast amount of oil and Russia needs it. Russia lost so many countries they dont want to let go of Chechnya! Before 9/11 the USA condemened Russia for its oppression of Chechnya and after it making a a deal with Russia to use their base for the attacks on the AFghans. Now the USA calls the Chechnyians terrorists!

[Sweeper 0]

War is a war. US will attack Iraq to give cheaper gas prices in order to be reelected.

USA bribes others to help them, Thats what this all about.

Russia problobly wants the oil and if Russia Helps US in "Terror War" They will get support...

Bush's policy i figure though he has problems hiding it

I have lost my taste for US since it's "Cover politics" hell I like the straight on approach myself not trying to sneak around and hope for the best.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 09 2002,12:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets not forget that Chechnya is fighting for idependence and they are not terrorist!Chechnya has a vast amount of oil and Russia needs it. Russia lost so many countries they dont want to let go of Chechnya! Before 9/11 the USA condemened Russia for its oppression of Chechnya and after it making a a deal with Russia to use their base for the attacks on the AFghans. Now the USA calls the Chechnyians terrorists!<span id='postcolor'>

300 people killed in appartment building bombings in Russia and they are not terrorists? Or do you also believe that Putin ordered that? Hell, in that case I was wrong, Putin isn't following George Bush's footsteps, George Bush is following Putin's! Dyuba must have ordered the WTC attacks in order to invade a few Middle eastern countries and have access to all that oil! Sheesh the crackpot theories some people here have . There's undeniable proof that the Chechens have links with Al-Qaeda. A good number of the "unlawful combatants" in Camp-X are Chechens. And FYI, Chechnya has been a part of Russia since the 1500's. It's not as if it was a relatively recent Soviet conquest.

[MrMilli 0]

As with all conflicts that go into a case of one ethnic group against another, it just isn't that simple.

Chechnya has never walked hand in hand with Russia, and Russia has always used force, fear and intimidation to keep Chechnya in line, at one point resulting in the expulsion of Chechens from Chechnya.

Problem is, the power gap of the early '90's allowed a fundementalist Government to take power in Chechnya, that bred this air of hatred between Russia and Chechnya.

The Chechens fighting Russians are mainly people who want independance, however an element of them are what could easily be described "International Terrorists" operating with the help of other terrorist and fundementalist groups. (this is otherwise known as Al-queda)

Also bear in mind that Chechnya's "Defence Minister" when it was still independant, is on Interpol's top 10 wanted for hi-jacking, with a few other "exploits"

As with any lawless country there are also groups of what could best be described as bandits, roaming the country looking for profit and pillage.

My thoughts, Chechnya should be granted its independance.

There should be a fair, unbiased election and an international inquiry into the actions of individuals on both sides of the conflict.

Russian troops should leave Chechnya and be replaced by a peacekeeping force from the former Soviet Republics of the region, funded by the UN.

[red oct 2]

isn't there a concern that if Chechnya becomes independent, that it can also become another haven for terrorists?

[Tovarish 0]

It's not just a concern. It's been proven. Chechnya had independence at the end of 96, and then they went and bombed some Russian appartment buildings. Russia is there to eliminate the threat of such attacks against it's civilian population. Period.

[MrMilli 0]

Ya know what, fuck it. I typed out a resonable reply but I really can't be bothered to continue with a debate started along the lines of "They did it (I heard so) kill them all if you have to"

Tovarish

Since 1991 Russia has reoccupied large areas of the caucasus in the name of "restoring stability" when that was the buzz word going around the UN, and now to "combat terrorism" now its the new buzz word.

Chechnya was not part of Russia.

Chechnya was a forced part of the USSR.

Chechnya declared its independance in 1991 when it could

Chechnya was given its independance in 1996 under a treaty signed by Boris Yelstin.

A permenant state of occupation is not a solution to any problem.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

If you will notice, that's not the topic of the thread, genius. We are talking about whether Russia will expand the conflict into Georgia, and if so, what would the repercussions be.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrMilli @ Oct. 09 2002,17:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya know what, fuck it. I typed out a resonable reply but I really can't be bothered to continue with a debate started along the lines of "They did it (I heard so) kill them all if you have to"

Tovarish<span id='postcolor'>

I've never said that, and no I don't believe in "kill them all if they have to". If you read my first few posts, you'll notice I'm not happy about the war there expanding. However, Russians have as much a right to combat terrorists as the US or anyone else. And no, it's not a matter of "They did it (I heard so)". The 300 dead Russian civilians are not a rumor, and Putin did not order those bombings, just like George bush and Israel didn't mastermind the WTC attacks.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since 1991 Russia has reoccupied large areas of the caucasus in the name of "restoring stability" when that was the buzz word going around the UN, and now to "combat terrorism" now its the new buzz word.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't like it, but the bombings have now made that a necessity. Ditto for the US and Afghanistan

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Chechnya was not part of Russia.

Chechnya was a forced part of the USSR.

<span id='postcolor'>

ASF Chechnya Brief

" The Chechens and their ancestors have apparently lived in their North Caucasus homeland for several thousand years. Part or all of their territory has been overrun for long periods by the Iranian Alans (ancestors of the Ossetins) in the 9-12th centuries, by the Golden Horde in the 13th-15th centuries, and then by the Russian Empire, which in a competition for domination of the North Caucasus that began in the 16th century, finally bested its Ottoman and Persian rivals.

So you say the USSR was around in the 16th century?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chechnya declared its independance in 1991 when it could<span id='postcolor'>

Which No Nation in the world  recognized, since Checnya had been an integral part of Russia for centuries. What do you think would happen if the state of Texas tried to declare independance tomorrow?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chechnya was given its independance in 1996 under a treaty signed by Boris Yelstin.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes...and then they went and bombed 300 Russian civilians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A permenant state of occupation is not a solution to any problem.

<span id='postcolor'>

No, but it's the best that anyone has come up with in combating terrorists in their havens. Just look at Israel-palestine, Us-Afghanistan.

[MrMilli 0]

No, the USSR wasn't around in the 16th century, but I didn't say that.

They were a forced part of the USSR when they supported the wrong side (as in non-communists) in 1917/18, and were punished by the communist leadership for it for 70 years after.

Unfortunately mate, doing a quick search on the internet is not going to give you a sudden in depth knowledge of the ethnic background and history of the area.

I never said Putin ordered the bombings, but if someone places a bomb who is responsible?

the nation that he is a citizen of or the bomber?

Chechnya 1996-present is a product of what Russia made it.

Permenant occupation is not the best solution to anything

You don't "combat terrorism" by coming along and saying to the people of afghanistan (for example only) "you're all liberated, and by the way we're arresting the people funding your government" and then moving on to another country.

Afghanistan is still a poor country, now a lot poorer.

You don't save Georgia from the tide of fundementalist cross border terrorists by sending in the Green Berets to teach the Georgians how to kill better.

Finally, there is a difference between bombing a terrorist training camp in afghanistan with a LGB and LEVELLING Grozny with 155mm HE and Fuel Air Bombs.

There is a difference between bombing a country and flooding it with motor rifle divisions.

Chechnya doesn't have a handy minority who will come along and form a co-operative government after a few bombing strikes, it will only drag on.

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

RIA Novosti RUSSIAN-GEORGIAN JOINT MEASURES ON FRONTIER PROTECTION TO BE DISCUSSED IN TBILISI

On Thursday a working group of Russia's frontier service is heading for Tbilisi to work out concrete measures on Russian-Georgian cooperation in the protection of borders.

The working group is headed by FPS /the Federal Frontier Service/ Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Gennady Loginov and member of the FPS board, head of the International Law Department Lieutenant General Alexander Manilov, the press centre of the Federal Frontier Service reported.

The aim of the FPS representatives' visit is "implementing the agreements, reached by the Russian and Georgian presidents in Chisinau, to work out concrete measures for further perfection of Russian-Georgian cooperation in the protection of their border," the FPS press centre pointed out.

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

RIA Novosti GEORGIA HAS BECOME CENTRE OF CHECHEN TERRORISTS' ACTIVITIES

Presidential aide Sergei Yastrzhembsky believes that Chechen terrorists have shifted the centre of their activities to Georgia. He said this during an internet conference at the Gazeta.ru website.

According to Yastrzhembsky, this happened because the border of Azerbaijan was guarded properly and hotbeds of terrorism were eliminated there.

Yastrzhembsky said that about 1,500 bandits were currently operating in Chechnya. Although they suffer permanent losses, the new mercenaries from Pankisi join the rebels, Yastrzhembsky stressed.

The rebels keep recruiting locals as well. "Therefore, their number is fluctuating, though we can say for sure that there are 1,500-2,000 of them. The season means a lot, too." The bandits' activities decline as winter arrives, for the lack of living conditions in the mountains, Yastrzhembsky said.

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

RIA Novosti

GEORGIA MUST NOT DELAY EXTRADITION OF 8 TERRORISTS TO RUSSIA

Sergei Yastrzhembsky, an aide to the Russian president, believes Georgia must not delay extradition of 8 terrorists to Russia. The Kremlin official said that to an Internet news conference Wednesday, which was published on the site of the Gazeta.ru electronic edition.

Mr Yastrzhembsky wants to make sure that Georgia gave heed to Russia's concerns and security demands following the Chisinau meeting, and will fulfil the promises it gave at the meeting. The republic then voiced an intention to patrol the border in co-operation with the Russians. Russia is, by all means, ready for the endeavour, for which the two frontier services should establish interaction, and Georgia should extradite the terrorists who are being kept in its custody, according to Mr Yastrzhembsky.

Russia is eager to come in contact with Georgia's incumbent leaders to tackle the problem of terrorism, emphasised the Russian president's aide. "Should Tbilisi display good political will, we will be able to ensure security of Russia and Georgia together by resolving the Pankisi problem, according to Sergei Yastrzhembsky.

He then deemed it necessary that the two countries' security agencies establish co-operation. Mr Yastrzhembsky reported on a meeting between Nikolai Patrushev, Russia's Federal Security Service chief, and his Georgian counterpart that took place on Tuesday. The two frontier services seem to be coming into contact too.

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

RIA Novosti

RUSSIA'S FSB CONFIRMS PRESENCE OF TERRORIST-TRAINING CAMPS IN GEORGIA

The Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) confirms the presence in Georgia of special camps for terrorist-subversion training, Major-General Arkadi Yedelev, deputy chief of the FSB antiterrorist board, has said on Wednesday. He appeared before an international anti-terrorism conference.

According to the Russian secret services, until last September militant training camps were found in the Tsinobali and Duisi villages in the Akhmeta district of Georgia. Militants here underwent many-stage training in managing small arms, conduct of acts of subversion, taking of hostages, military topography, said the general.

He said that international terrorists in Georgia are financed by one of bin Laden's associates Abu Hafs of Jordan. He has to do with the Al Qaeda terrorist network. The United States Department of State has promised 5 million dollars for his head.

PS. FSB is the KGB.. with another name...

www.fsb.ru

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

RIA Novosti

TONY BLAIR SAYS RUSSIA HAS LAWFUL INTEREST IN PROTECTING ITSELF AGAINST TERRORISM IN CHECHNYA

In his interview with the BBC World Service on Wednesday, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair stated that Russia had been fighting against Al-Qaeda even before the events of September 11, 2001, and it has a genuine interest in protecting itself against terrorism in Chechnya. Mr. Blair underlined that it's important to remember that the threat of terrorism is coming directly from the extremists in Chechnya and also that the territorial integrity of Russia must be respected.

According to the British Prime Minister, one of the reasons why Russia was very much opposed to the Al-Qaeda even before 11 September terrorist acts in New York and Washington, is because Moscow had been a target of terrorist acts of the Islamic extremists for a long time which caused the deaths of many, many Russian citizens.

Tony Blair made this statement shortly before his visit to Russia. He is expected to try to convince Moscow not to oppose the adoption of the new UN Security Council's resolution on Iraq, which assumes the possibility that the U.S. and its allies might resort to a military action against that country.

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

RIA Novosti

RUSSIA HAS LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM TERRORISM IN CHECHNYA, BRITISH PREMIER SAYS

The Russians, who started a campaign against the al-Qaeda network well before the Sept. 11 attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C., have a legitimate right to defend themselves from terrorism in Chechnya, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in a BBC interview. Extremists operating in Chechnya threaten the Russian Federation's national security and territorial integrity, he pointed out. Western nations are now becoming increasingly aware of the fact, he added.

The history of Islamic terrorism in Russia goes beyond 9/11, and it has claimed the lives of quite a few Russian people, Mr. Blair said. Russia has always realized the danger of the Chechen separatist movement, associated with extremism and fundamentalism, Blair said. If it spills out, the tendency will create an enormous problem for all of us, the British PM said. This is why it is so important to understand the situation Russia is facing, he emphasized.

The British Premier made the statement ahead of a visit to Moscow. Observers say that while here, he will try to convince Russian officials not to veto a prospective UN Security Council resolution authorizing the use of military force against Iraq by the United States and its allies.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Wonder if this will turn into the new mid-east discussio?