Abortion and the death penalty

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A fetus is not a lump of cellular jelly it is a living, thinking, human being. <span id='postcolor'> Now you must understand that this simply is not true. You are confusing a fetus with a zygote. The child can't be terminated after a certain amount of time, when it has developed into a human. Religious dogma wont alter science. I am a Christian, as an act of compassion I support abortion in instances where it will prevent suffering, no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

Zygotes dont think either. Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

If you call that allready a human being then I guess a girl kills one per month no? (you know, the few days during a month when they freak for no reason) So let me say, they start at 14, they finish around 65, that makes 51years times 12 months....urghhh all women are murderes.

But wait, if a stem cell allready is a human being then a sperm must be too. How many of those do we produce per day? Oh my god!

[Warin 0]

Well, it doesnt surprise me to read the opinons that I am You are all pretty much falling in about how I expected.

Turkish, you raise perhaps the best arguement against abortion that I have read in a long time. And being a father, I can empathise with you. But in a way, I have a different take on it...

Because of certain difficulties, we really had no ideae of how far along my wife was when we found out she was pregnant. So she had an ultrasound at what turned out to be 3-4 weeks after conception. And at that point there was the barest flutter of anything on the ultrasound. Now, we actually wanted a child, so abortion was never an issue. But if my wife had been raped and this the result, I cant say I would be against abortion at that point. If it was later..mid second trimester, when we had the second ultra-sound, I couldnt even remotely support an abortion at that point..and the law (at least here in Canada) doesnt allow for abortion after the first trimester. In the end, I doubt you'll see many married women looking for an abortion. I believe it's a womans choice... but I cannot and will not believe that abortion as birth control is right.

The death penaty...

Firmly against. It is not a deterrent of any sort. And until the criminal justice system is 100% perfect, then there will be a better than reasonable chance of an innocent man being found guilty. No matter how you try to justify it, if even a single inncoent person is put to death, then the whole system is wrong. Add to that the fact that the average death penalty trial and following legalities costs more than keeping a man in prison, and you lose the 'It's cheaper' theory.

They are both really thorny topics and I am rather impressed that we've managed to discuss it without it turning into a flame fest. GJ guys.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either.  Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

You can ask that every man and he wont know!

How do babies (or the foetus) breath in the amniotic water?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 25 2002,19:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can ask that every man and he wont know!

How do babies (or the foetus) breath in the amniotic water?<span id='postcolor'>

They receive oxygenated blood through the umbilical chord.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,04:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,05:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, read Exodus; you can be killed for plenty of crimes. The prescribed method is stoning.<span id='postcolor'>

That's the old testament, yes, but not the new.

OT: An eye for an eye

NT: Turn the other cheek

I would go with the new one since it was most recently updated <span id='postcolor'>

Denoir, I really hope you don't take this as me picking on you. It's not my intention at all. You just have the best posts on which I can base my opinions on these two matters.

First, let me address your exchange here. The whole "turn the other cheek" bit has been taken out of context. Yes, in Matthew 5:38-39, Jesus says "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." He's talking to regular Joes here. But before that, in Matthew 5:17, Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them." The Law refers to the Ten Commandments, the basis of Jewish law. He goes on to say in verses 18 and 19, "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." So what the Jesus is saying is that he isn't changing the law. He's clarifying it. See, at that point in time, the Jewish religious leaders were pretty corrupt. They basically watered down God's original law so that they were the only ones who were following it. Jesus saw this, and saw that the Pharisees (said religious leaders) were obeying the laws on the outside, but not in their hearts. So Jesus, knowing that an inner condition will eventually lead to an outer response, stepped up and said, "Hey, you can't just follow the laws on the outside. You need to conform your inner attitude to follow them too." That's why he says that you're not even supposed to be angry with another person (angry in this case meaning angry enough to actually commit murder), and if you are, you've committed the sin in your heart, which displeases God just as much as the actual action.

I just wanted to clarify that.

The Death Penalty: Now with that I'll say this: Jesus is not saying that the death penalty is wrong. He's talking about individuals, regular Joes like you and me. A few books over, in the Apostle Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome, Paul talks about the law, and obeying the authorities. In Romans 13:1-2, he says "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves."

So basically, the Bible says "Hey, if you disobey the authorities, you will pay the penalty. Whether it's a speeding ticket or the gas chamber, that's for them to decide. But God has placed these people in authority, so you need to abide by the law." Everyone knows the laws here, or wherever they live. If you don't, find out. Ignorance is not an excuse to do wrong. No body here commits a crime like murder or rape without knowing what is potentially instore for them.

So yes, the Bible DOES say "Turn the other cheek." It says that to you and me as regular, non-governing people. But to us regular people it also says "Obey the authorities, or you will be punished." So it's really very simple. If you don't like the death penalty, don't break the law.

Some of you may say, "But Turk, I don't believe in God or the Bible. That doesn't apply to me." Okay, let's take God and the Bible out of the equasion altogether. The law is still the law. If you don't want to get in trouble, don't break the law. Seriously, countries usually reserve the death penalty for people who commit murder, serial rape, things like that.

Now, regarding immoral governments, such as Nazi Germany, or the Stalinist era Russia, or Commie China...I think those governments were excluded from God's "list of approved governments" because they murdered innocent people. They are totalitarianist governments that slander the name of God and punish people for thinking otherwise. I don't think they count.

But countries like Sweden, and the UK, and America, and other similar countries...countries with normal, moral governments (as moral as a government can be), we as citizens of those countries need to obey the authorities that God has placed over us. And whether the punishment is community service or death is immaterial. The point is, you need to obey the laws. And if you obey the laws, you don't need to worry about the death penalty. Lets face it, the people who are sitting on death row today know why they got there. Sure, governments make mistakes. You would too, if you were in charge of 300 Million people or more. But the US is very careful when it comes to criminals and punishments. I know, we've all seen "The Fugitive," where he goes to death row...but that's a movie.

If you have specific, documented cases where a person has been sent to death row unjustly, I'd like to see it.

That's my stance. I am now prepared to get flamed.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,13:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either.  Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'>

We with brains?

You're the one who told him he was confusing fetus with zygote when he said fetuses were livinng thinking things...

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,11:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ July 25 2002,121)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll chip my two cents worth in.

a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong.

the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse.

so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.)

about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days.

about his death: it happened as it was prophecied.

just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact.

or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22:

it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.)

God is real, guys.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh no not again...<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so you can post your point of view, but people who believe in God can't? Sorry, I didn't know it was that kind of debate...

[Paratrooper 0]

Jesus healed the Roman's ear in the Garden of Gethsemony, he is against violence. He brings the New Covenant. This is the basis of Christianity! If we humans kill it must be for cause, not out of anger or hate.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am a Christian, as an act of compassion I support abortion in instances where it will prevent suffering, no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception.<span id='postcolor'>

No one is coming out and saying "Abortion for the hell of it is okay by me."

But by saying that it's a woman's choice, you are saying that it's okay. You're just not making a direct statement.

[Warin 0]

Turkish,

Try these for starters.  And here are some of the worst...cases of police/prosecutorial misconduct.

The governor of Illinois, a pro death penaty advocate, has suspended all executions in that state becuase he cant, in good faith, say that the system is not sending innocent people to death.

That's got to say something...

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,19:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,130)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either.  Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'>

We with brains?

You're the one who told him he was confusing fetus with zygote when he said fetuses were livinng thinking things...<span id='postcolor'>

My biology days are well behind me I'm afraid. The fact that the early fetus is not alive is well exepted in the Scientific community and my small mistake doesn't change that.

Scientific knowlege can't be nullified by dogma.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus healed the Roman's ear in the Garden of Gethsemony, he is against violence. He brings the New Covenant. This is the basis of Christianity! If we humans kill it must be for cause, not out of anger or hate.<span id='postcolor'>

I pretty much agree with you.  Yes, he healed the dude's ear (of course, the guy was also unarmed...Peter just happened to take a whack at him).  But he also drove the merchants out of the temple by flipping over their tables and stuff (people forget that he was a carpenter by trade, so Jesus was probably pretty built), because he was angered at them defiling the Holy place.  But he did not sin in his anger, so it wasn't wrong.

But you're right.  If we kill, it cannot be out of anger or hatred, because then it becomes murder.  That's why I support the death penalty, because it's not out of anger or hatred.  It's a just punishment for deserving crimes.

BTW, could you please site your references for your claim that life does not start at conception?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,19:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am a Christian, as an act of compassion I support abortion in instances where it will prevent suffering, no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception.<span id='postcolor'>

No one is coming out and saying "Abortion for the hell of it is okay by me."

But by saying that it's a woman's choice, you are saying that it's okay.  You're just not making a direct statement.<span id='postcolor'>

Can you clarify what this means?

I support abortion.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,19:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am a Christian, as an act of compassion I support abortion in instances where it will prevent suffering, no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception.<span id='postcolor'>

No one is coming out and saying "Abortion for the hell of it is okay by me."

But by saying that it's a woman's choice, you are saying that it's okay.  You're just not making a direct statement.<span id='postcolor'>

Can you clarify what this means?

I support abortion.<span id='postcolor'>

I'd be happy to.

You said earlier that, while you support it if it will prevent suffering, "no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception." Correct? Stop me if I'm wrong.

Now, the common viewpoint I've seen here is that, while most people here don't support abortion personally, they DO support the woman's right to choose for herself. Correct? Again, stop me if I'm wrong.

So continuing in that line of thinking, these people say they support a woman's right to choose whether or not she aborts the pregnancy. But by saying you support her right to choose, along with that goes the implication that you support her right to choose regardless of her reason for wanting it in the first place. You see?

So by saying you don't personally like it but it's the woman's right to choose, you're saying that you support her right to choose over the baby's right to life, thereby aligning yourself and your opinion with those who say "Yeah, I support abortion for whatever reason."

As much as it sucks, it's one of those situations where you're on one side or the other.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 25 2002,11:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you call that allready a human being then I guess a girl kills one per month no? (you know, the few days during a month when they freak for no reason) So let me say, they start at 14, they finish around 65, that makes 51years times 12 months....urghhh all women are murderes.

But wait, if a stem cell allready is a human being then a sperm must be too. How many of those do we produce per day? Oh my god!  

<span id='postcolor'>

Okay, not to sound mean, but you didn't even think that through before you posted, did you?

An egg is just an egg until it is joined by a sperm cell. And vice versa. By your logic, guys kill millions every time they jerk off.

It's like JB Weld. For those that don't know, JB Weld is like superglue. It comes in 2 tubes (a hardener and a bonding agent). One without the other is useless. But when you mix the two compounds together, you get this cement-like glue.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 25 2002,12:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Turkish,

Try these for starters.  And here are some of the worst...cases of police/prosecutorial misconduct.

The governor of Illinois, a pro death penaty advocate, has suspended all executions in that state becuase he cant, in good faith, say that the system is not sending innocent people to death.

That's got to say something...<span id='postcolor'>

Warin, thanks for the links. I just briefly glanced at them, because I have some other things to do, but I'll take a look at them when I get home, and I'll comment on them tonight, probably. But I didn't want you to think that I was blowing you off.

I'll just say now that there's two sides to every story. We had a case here where a cop beat up a black guy and got suspended. He was threatened by the ACLU, and the NAACP, and all the civil rights organizations, then they found out that this "victim" had a history of violence and was prone to starting fights. So that proved that, like I just said, there's two sides to every story.

But again, I want to check out those links. Thanks!

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either.  Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'>

I just went back and re-read the topic and found I'd missed this.

So are you implying that the medical professionals (of which I'm guessing you are not) who have stated that life begins at conception don't have brains?

Not trying to be a dick, I'm just asking...

[foxer 0]

abortion-Don't care for the first time.But it shouldn't be done over and over again.I think first time would be an accident,But next time you have sex you better practice with more care.because you shouldn't get unlimited abortions.

Death penalty-Sometimes yes and sometimes no.I'am sick how murderers die in the death penalty.Lethal injection is soo much bullshit.Where's the electric chair,gas chamber,Better yet let me just shoot him,I got the gun,I got the bullet.But if he only murders one person,The death penalty shouldn't count,Because it would be hard to tell,Unles they are 100% sure it was him,then they should just kill him.

Millions of americans would love to go out an easy way when they die.But were not ,were all going die in pain,but we let these people that kill other people die soo easy.lethal injection = bullshit.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,120)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either.  Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'>

I just went back and re-read the topic and found I'd missed this.

So are you implying that the medical professionals (of which I'm guessing you are not) who have stated that life begins at conception don't have brains?

Not trying to be a dick, I'm just asking...<span id='postcolor'>

Those people are in tiny minorites within the medical/scientific communities.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,112)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ July 25 2002,12<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll chip my two cents worth in.

a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong.

the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse.

so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.)

about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days.

about his death: it happened as it was prophecied.

just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact.

or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22:

it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.)

God is real, guys.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh no not again...<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so you can post your point of view, but people who believe in God can't?  Sorry, I didn't know it was that kind of debate...<span id='postcolor'>

I love how you put words in my mouth, you are truley a great debater.

Last time I checked this was a discussion on "abortion and the death penalty" not the existance of god. We've already had 2 of those.

God thread 1

God thread 2

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

Hi, this may've moved on but i thought i'd give my opinion on these things:

Abortion - this shouldn't be frowned upon, yes, people may think it's murder, but i'm pretty sure if these god squad people were living in shitty houses with no money and stuff, they'd want an abortion if they couldn't support it. Its a choice between two 'deaths' for the baby - Dying in his mothers womb (although wether its ''living'' in this state is debatable), or dying in poverty with drugs lying about the place with no food, clothing and parents who wanted to get rid of him/her, but couldn't because some religious humanitarians have to invade and control everyone elses lives for them simply because their false gods don't believe in abortion. Some people don't understand that babies can ruin peoples lives, they just say ''who cares if you have to support 15 kids by working in a sweatshop where you're raped and beaten everyday, you had... sex... without protection!! you're going straight to hell, this is your punishment before then''. Of course, they don't give a shit about the baby, they don't care they'll have to live in squaler, all they care about is the person having the baby. Maybe they can then ruin their lives furthur afterwards by nicking off with their babies because they can't be supported, and then they shove them in a nunery so they can be assimilated into their religion so they can exploit a few more people for money and needless worship.

Death Penalty - It isn't really a punishment, i'd rather have serial killer types spend the rest of their lives in a shitty prison with a 9 foot tall homo called bubba. Thats punishment, simply killing them is the easy way out really, they won't reform, they'll happily go out and slaughter people, but why kill them? let them suffer the unpleasantness of a dark, horrible prison cell, the company of 20 hardcore inmqates who hate serial killers, and of course regular unofficial beatings from the guards.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

We live in the 21th Century, not in the 17th.

The bible is old, its too old for the civilisation now. It have been once before, but then it was updated, now we shall live by the rules of our community, our laws. The bible have teached us alot, but it cannot be lived by, and it is no more than wisdom written into a book to help people live their lives and remain law and order in a community. It created what was the first real civilisation, but it is outdated... and its been that for long now.

Now we dont need any book or any religion to live by. We need to believe in ourselves, we are indivisuals with our own rights, and we can succeed, the book and priests are replaced by parents, school and its teachers, It is replaced by the persons we live amongs. Religion is over, we have our own religion and its what our ancestors have been fought for when all their money were taked from the priests a long time ago.

This doesnt only apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, believe in yourself, not a god. God isnt their, we are our own master, we dont have to live under pressure or sacrifice our valuest. Most wars are caused by religion nowadays, it may seem right, but it isnt. If we dont stop believing we never will, dont u see it??!

Some "believers" are looking down to people with other or none believers, non believers are looking down to believers. Believeing in minorities is the cause of hate, and hate isnt to be justified in any cause. We saw this happen when Adolf Hitler looked down to Jews and other minorities. It is cruelness and coldness, we saw it when Ali and his friends flew into the twin towers, cruel. This is caused by religion. It might or might not be your religion, but it is still the cause of it. There is no god, no controller, no ruler except ourself. If we do not stop believing this we will stop functioning in a short period of time.

/Edit (somehow it erased the last part of my post)

The world is getting smaller for each day, and we need to find alternatives to produce food, and find shelter for the growing population. Our technology is incriesing as well, but religion will put an end to this. We need to support what our ethics are, not the religion we think exists. Mother Earth is also developping, and its fruits are getting more and more evolved, but it is doing it too slow for us. We are simply to fast for the earth, and we either have to slow down, or take it into our own hands. This means birthcontroll or genetherapy. Many religions are against this.... And they are against birth controll as well.... Religion will be the cause of our death... And this is only 1 example of it.

Religion was once, and it has passed. It was good to bring people together and live in peace, but it is over, the world is too small and its people are too large and developped.

Im not taking any statement in gene therapy or birthcontrol here, but it is depressing to see people being somehow brainwashed that they limit their own freedom which is exactly what our civilisation is based upon the day today. Welive now, not 400 years ago. LIVE!