Islamic center

[Longinius 1]

I just gotta mention this...

I live in Malmo, Sweden. In this city, we have one of Swedens two or three moskes (sp?). It is situated across the street from where I work, in a big, lush park. Recently, the place (Islamic Center, lets call it IC) decided to expand at the cost of 3 million USD. They are building their own schools, kindergarten, retirement home, hospital (where they can do circumsitions) and laboratories (chemical and biological) for educational purposes (!!!. This entire site, the IC, is for muslims only. The rest of the city is not allowed to use the schools and such. In theory, a muslim kid can go through his or her entire schooling at this place, from kindergarten and all the way through high-school.

What are my beefs with this?

1. If I as a Swede wanted to build a "Viking Center" with the same functionality and prinicipals, I would be branded a racist and shunned by society.

2. Biological and chemical labs, wtf?! We allready know places like this in England have been used to recruit people for Al Queda and the Taliban. Do we really need to let them have labs they can (ab)use to?

3. They are building a society within society. When anyone else does it, there is an outcry. But not when muslims do it. Why?

4. Do I mind that they have a moske? Hell no. Do I mind that they are isolating themselves from Sweden? Yeah!

5. Where the HECK did they get funding for that project?

To tell the truth. This worries me. A lot.

[Guest]

Do you object that sects like Livets Ord have their own schools? Because they do, and I don't see the difference except that Islam is more well-represented.

1) If a Swede would build a Viking Center in Saudi Arabia, it would not be branded as racist. Actually there are a lot of Swedish schools in the world intended for Swedish people only.

2) I am sure that those are high-school type bio/chem labs. Anyway they have to follow the same rules as everybody else, I don't see any problem there. Or are you suggesting racial profiling where you can only have a certain type of institution if you are of the 'correct' race or religion?

3) See 1)

4) As long as they respect Swedish law, I have no problem with them isolating themselves.

5) Their members probably. Non of our business however.

[xmurderx 0]

I completly agree with your "beef"

I geuss the majority of the population has to ahead to the minority just because of the fact that they are the minority.

here in america we have a tv channel on basic cable called "black entertainment telivison", or BET, I theorize that if someone created a "white entertainment telivison" he would be deemed a racist. Iam not white myself, but anyone who says "Iam proud to be white" is instantly a racist, yet any other race can say "Iam proud to be black, asian, muslium, etc" and get away with it.

[Longinius 1]

"1) If a Swede would build a Viking Center in Saudi Arabia, it would not be branded as racist. Actually there are a lot of Swedish schools in the world intended for Swedish people only."

Yeah, but I dont live in Saudi Arabia. Why can't I build a Viking Center here?

"2) I am sure that those are high-school type bio/chem labs. Anyway they have to follow the same rules as everybody else, I don't see any problem there. Or are you suggesting racial profiling where you can only have a certain type of institution if you are of the 'correct' race or religion?"

No, I just don't want to take the chance of my office doors being coated with anthrax. Yes, I am paranoid. No, this isn't exactly helping my mental health

Honestly though, if only muslims use the labs its much easier for muslim terrorists to actually abuse the labs. If it was in an ordinary school you'd have lots of people around who could take notice and report it. In an isolated center that is not the case. And no, I don't think they referred to ordinary school labs. If it was ordinary labs they wouldnt even have mentioned it.

"3) See 1)"

Just because Swedes do it to doesnt mean its right, or good, or even something I would like to see.

"4) As long as they respect Swedish law, I have no problem with them isolating themselves."

How will we know if hardly any "Swedes" ever go there?

"5) Their members probably. Non of our business however."

Are you sure of this? The current buildings were paid for by an anonymous foreign contributor. Could be a nice old oil millionaire somewhere. Could be a crazed taliban. Who knows, I sure don't. But I do care about it actually.

[ralphwiggum 6]

wtf? what's wrong with you Longinius? you are always on left side of my political spectrum...

anyway spelling in English would be 'mosque'.

I'd say Denoir put it correctly.

and whatever the hell you felt is how rednecks and idiots in US feel too in some sense. it needs to be overcome. So what if they want to preserve their culture? IT's extremely hard for Muslim in western countries to keep their faith due to various reasons. so having a center would solve the problem.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, but I dont live in Saudi Arabia. Why can't I build a Viking Center here?<span id='postcolor'>

that's because you'd imply that you are putting dominant ideology of that area on top of others, thus intimidating minorities.

get over xenophobia please.

[Guest]

We live in a society where we have set a number of rules and rights for minorities. You don't like that? Go ahead and vote for Sverigedemokraterna or some other extremer right-wing party.

Even George W. Bush realised that because of personal bad experience with a group within a minority doesn't mean that the whole minority should loose its rights. I wonder why you can't see that Longinius.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 16 2002,09:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wtf? what's wrong with you Longinius?<span id='postcolor'>

The thing that is wrong with him is that he is from Malmö, a city with lots of immigrants and a lot of crime. While Longinius is very willing to provide 'words of wisdom' to the Israelli how they must respect the rights of the Palestinians he obviously can't see beyond his own nose when it comes to his situation.

Xenophobia is a very very nasty things. You obviously got issues, Longinius, that I would suggest that you analyze and deal with.

[Longinius 1]

"that's because you'd imply that you are putting dominant ideology of that area on top of others, thus intimidating minorities.

get over xenophobia please. "

So, its OK for minorities to do basically whatever they want, but if you belong to a majority, then its wrong? That is not very sound reasoning, because it is in fact discrimination.

"We live in a society where we have set a number of rules and rights for minorities. You don't like that? Go ahead and vote for Sverigedemokraterna or some other extremer right-wing party."

No thanks, I will stick with Moderaterna. That does not mean I accept everything in society as is though. I don't think you should have more rights because you belong to a minority. I believe in equality, no matter gender, race or religion. If a christian can do it, so should a muslim and vice versa. When one group of people get advantages another group does not have then you set the seeds for racism, for prejudice and for envy.

"Even George W. Bush realised that because of personal bad experience with a group within a minority doesn't mean that the whole minority should loose its rights. I wonder why you can't see that Longinius."

I am not talking about losing rights. I am talking about EQUAL rights. Having a "democratic" society where different groups has different rights IS wrong. And that is the reason parties like Sverigedemokraterna and Nationaldemokraterna can even exist.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 16 2002,09:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"that's because you'd imply that you are putting dominant ideology of that area on top of others, thus intimidating minorities.

get over xenophobia please. "

So, its OK for minorities to do basically whatever they want, but if you belong to a majority, then its wrong? That is not very sound reasoning, because it is in fact discrimination.<span id='postcolor'>

that's same logic used by Republican idiots in attempts to abolish Affirmitive action in US.

majority has advantage, and to help minority, majority can decide to sacrifice some of themselves to promote diversity through empowering minority.

and what happens? as soon as this is set, some upset member from majority claims that minorities are getting unfair(better) treatment.

but as i see it, if you want to talk about equality, then start everything from same basis and give them equal chance. those are lacking in immigration cases.

minorities are not doing whatever they want. they are doing what other Swedes would do. they are not asking for some jackass immunity. should gov't inspector inspect their facility, they will follow.

[Oligo 1]

"If a Swede would build a Viking Center in Saudi Arabia, it would not be branded as racist. Actually there are a lot of Swedish schools in the world intended for Swedish people only."

Like the goddamn Ĺbo Akademi here in Finland. The mission statement of that university is to further the place of swedish language in Finland. If some other university declared to further the place of finnish language in Finland, it would not be approved, ever. All universities here have to be either two-languaged (finnish and swedish) or swedish.

Oh, talk about minority oppressing majority. All Finns have to learn swedish in school, it's mandatory.

"Honestly though, if only muslims use the labs its much easier for muslim terrorists to actually abuse the labs. If it was in an ordinary school you'd have lots of people around who could take notice and report it. In an isolated center that is not the case. And no, I don't think they referred to ordinary school labs. If it was ordinary labs they wouldnt even have mentioned it."

It's funny how people think that labs are some kind of magical places where much trickery can be performed. A typical lab does not differ much from a typical kitchen. Evil terrorists could build secret labs in any basement with ease, because all it takes to make a lab is some special equipment which anybody can purchase with enough money, no questions asked. Register your basement as a biotech company (anybody can do this) and you can order whatnot without any suspicion.

What it takes to make a biological or chemical weapon is SKILL, which does not just grow in a lab.

And normal labs are very easy to abuse, too. I have done it myself. Nobody ever asks any questions. I could grow Anthrax in the corner and people would notice only after they start dropping...

[Longinius 1]

"The thing that is wrong with him is that he is from Malmö, a city with lots of immigrants and a lot of crime. While Longinius is very willing to provide 'words of wisdom' to the Israelli how they must respect the rights of the Palestinians he obviously can't see beyond his own nose when it comes to his situation."

That has nothing to do with it. I am not restricting people to occupied areas nor am I saying we should demolish population areas. I am talking about equal rights to all, not about waging war on others. If you can't see the difference then it isnt my fault.

"Xenophobia is a very very nasty things. You obviously got issues, Longinius, that I would suggest that you analyze and deal with."

Yeah, I gotta be a moron just because I dont think its good to grant different rights to different groups.

To clarify to those who seemingly dont understand:

- I think IC is bad because I as a Swede am not allowed to do the same thing.

- I think IC is bad because similar places have previously been used by terrorists. The police and government have little insigt into what is going on in there and it WILL be abused.

- I think its bad to isolate a kid for his entire schooling from the rest of the nation, which has a different culture and lifestyle. Yes, this applies to private schools for rich aswell, not just religious schools.

- I think IC is bad because muslims in Malmo allready have isolated themselfs to a certain degree. We dont need more isolation, we need integration!

- I think IC is bad because it creates an entire block of the city where immigrants can get by without having to even learn the Swedish language. This is a problem allready, this will make it even bigger.

- And then there is the issue of circumsition and what in Swedish is called "könsstympning", basically a circumsition of females. This is currently done by sending the female abroad and doing it in the homeland, now it can be done right here in Malmo.

This is why I think its bad. You can disagree if you want to, as is your right. But if you think the above points are good, then you are scaring me.

[Paratrooper 0]

A man can critisize the actions on a minority without hating them or wishing to drive them out.

I think you all know that calling him a xenophobe is a big stick to belt him with, and I find that pretty pathetic.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 16 2002,09:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not talking about losing rights. I am talking about EQUAL rights. Having a "democratic" society where different groups has different rights IS wrong. And that is the reason parties like Sverigedemokraterna and Nationaldemokraterna can even exist.<span id='postcolor'>

But that's not the case.They have exactly the same rights. Just as any other Swedish religious group can, and do, they can open up their own schools.

You are expressing of how worried you are that the funding may come from terrorist organisations and that they might be producing bio/chem weapons in the labs. That just shows nothing else then that you think that muslim = terrorist. And, well, sorry to inform you, but that is racist.

[Longinius 1]

"But that's not the case.They have exactly the same rights. Just as any other Swedish religious group can, and do, they can open up their own schools."

Name one other religious group in Sweden that have an entire block of their own, with schools, hospitals, libraries, churches, retirementhomes and restaurants. Also name one other religious group that have submitted a formal plan to the city for further expanding on such a block adding their own gasstations with prices that are divided, one price for muslims and one for "Swedes".

"You are expressing of how worried you are that the funding may come from terrorist organisations and that they might be producing bio/chem weapons in the labs. That just shows nothing else then that you think that muslim = terrorist. And, well, sorry to inform you, but that is racist."

No, I dont think muslim equals terrorist. I do think that an isolated city block for muslims might actually be a bused by muslim terrorists. Currently, muslims terrorists are a greater threat against me than the "fighters" of any other religion. Is that racist? Uhm, OK, Denoir. If you say so. Just keep repeating, "Muslim terrorists are not a threat, Muslim terrorists are not a threat, Muslim terrorists are not a threat". Meanwhile I will assume that muslim terrorists will actually take advantage of an isolated Islamic center.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 16 2002,09:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To clarify to those who seemingly dont understand:

- I think IC is bad because I as a Swede am not allowed to do the same thing.<span id='postcolor'>

BS. You have the same right.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- I think IC is bad because similar places have previously been used by terrorists. The police and government have little insigt into what is going on in there and it WILL be abused.

<span id='postcolor'>

BS. Can you give me some references to previous cases?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- I think its bad to isolate a kid for his entire schooling from the rest of the nation, which has a different culture and lifestyle. Yes, this applies to private schools for rich aswell, not just religious schools.<span id='postcolor'>

Possibly, but it is a free country. We can't force everybody to joing Hitlerjugend just so we have a nice homegenous mass, now can we? You'll have to accept that there is cultural diversity.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- And then there is the issue of circumsition and what in Swedish is called "könsstympning", basically a circumsition of females. This is currently done by sending the female abroad and doing it in the homeland, now it can be done right here in Malmo.

<span id='postcolor'>

BS. Female circumsition is an African cultural habit not a muslim religious one. Even if that was the case, why the hell would they need a center to perform that. You have a plenty of muslim doctors in Sweden that could perform that. This last statement of yours shows perfectly how you are not thinking at all but just spitting out bitter clichés.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 16 2002,10:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"But that's not the case.They have exactly the same rights. Just as any other Swedish religious group can, and do, they can open up their own schools."

Name one other religious group in Sweden that have an entire block of their own, with schools, hospitals, libraries, churches, retirementhomes and restaurants.<span id='postcolor'>

Livets Ord, Jehovas vittnen, Judiska församlingen i Stockholm, Katolska Kyrkan, Metodistkyrkan ... just to name a few.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also name one other religious group that have submitted a formal plan to the city for further expanding on such a block adding their own gasstations with prices that are divided, one price for muslims and one for "Swedes".

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, that won't be accepted since it would be in violation of Swedish law. That's all there is to it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, I dont think muslim equals terrorist. I do think that an isolated city block for muslims might actually be a bused by muslim terrorists. Currently, muslims terrorists are a greater threat against me than the "fighters" of any other religion. Is that racist? Uhm, OK, Denoir. If you say so. Just keep repeating, "Muslim terrorists are not a threat, Muslim terrorists are not a threat, Muslim terrorists are not a threat". Meanwhile I will assume that muslim terrorists will actually take advantage of an isolated Islamic center.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh yes. The big bad muslim terrorist wolf will come and destroy us Swedes. Please listen to yourself...

[Paratrooper 0]

I think Bin Laden has better targets than Sweden!

But what kind of message does moving to a country, then insulating yourselves from it, send out? That you are in the country to take it's benefits, but not wanting to be a part of it. This may not be an act of blatant hostility but it will always cause friction, as Longinius has demonstrated for us.

[Longinius 1]

"BS. You have the same right."

Uhm, no, I don't actually. Because if I tried to build a place for Swedes only, or Skĺningar only or whatever I'd get sued so fast my balls would ache for weeks.

"BS. Can you give me some references to previous cases?"

Mosques in London, used by Al Queda agents.

"Possibly, but it is a free country. We can't force everybody to joing Hitlerjugend just so we have a nice homegenous mass, now can we? You'll have to accept that there is cultural diversity."

So now you are comparing public school to Hitlerjugend? Isnt that quite a stretch?

"BS. Female circumsition is an African cultural habit not a muslim religious one. Even if that was the case, why the hell would they need a center to perform that. You have a plenty of muslim doctors in Sweden that could perform that. This last statement of yours shows perfectly how you are not thinking at all but just spitting out bitter clichés."

OK, whatever. So, just because it is only practiced by African Muslims and not Middle East muslims means it wouldnt be performed in an Islamic center?

"Livets Ord, Jehovas vittnen, Judiska församlingen i Stockholm, Katolska Kyrkan, Metodistkyrkan ... just to name a few."

Where do they control an entire block, with schools, hospitals, restaurants, retirement homes etc. Give me an example of an actual location.

"Well, that won't be accepted since it would be in violation of Swedish law. That's all there is to it."

Yes, thank god it wasnt accepted. The entire plan for an Islamic center was turned down that time and they were only given the right to build a mosque. Now, some odd five years or so later, they have their Islamic Center. Now, how long before that gasstation gets there?

"Oh yes. The big bad muslim terrorist wolf will come and destroy us Swedes. Please listen to yourself..."

No, it wont come and destroy us Swedes. I really doubt that. But I am not so convinced that for example American interests in Sweden would not be targeted. Or other nations interests in Sweden.

I might be totally off track and nothing bad will ever come of IC except the fact that it will set back the allready not so successful integration attempts. If I am wrong, then I will be happy. If I am right, then I wont be very glad at all.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 16 2002,10:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think Bin Laden has better targets than Sweden!  

But what kind of message does moving to a country, then insulating yourselves from it, send out? That you are in the country to take it's benefits, but not wanting to be a part of it. This may not be an act of blatant hostility but it will always cause friction, as Longinius has demonstrated for us.<span id='postcolor'>

well, integration into foreign society is never easy.

that's why it needs to be gradual. You just can't ask immigrants to totally abandon there life style from home. they need to slowly change, and that IC mentioned would represent their fear of loosing the roots, i.e. getting integrated into Swedish society.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 16 2002,10:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 16 2002,10:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think Bin Laden has better targets than Sweden!  

But what kind of message does moving to a country, then insulating yourselves from it, send out? That you are in the country to take it's benefits, but not wanting to be a part of it. This may not be an act of blatant hostility but it will always cause friction, as Longinius has demonstrated for us.<span id='postcolor'>

well, integration into foreign society is never easy.

that's why it needs to be gradual. You just can't ask immigrants to totally abandon there life style from home. they need to slowly change, and that IC mentioned would represent their fear of loosing the roots, i.e. getting integrated into Swedish society.<span id='postcolor'>

Then pardon my saying so, Why move to Sweden?

[Longinius 1]

"that's why it needs to be gradual. You just can't ask immigrants to totally abandon there life style from home. they need to slowly change, and that IC mentioned would represent their fear of loosing the roots, i.e. getting integrated into Swedish society."

So the best way to integrate is to isolate? I disagree.

Yes, they should have an Islamic Center. But it shouldnt have seperate schooling for one thing, not if they want to get integrated. Many of the things that will exist in the Islamic Center should exist allright, but in the "ordinary" society.

We should have muslim doctors and nurses. We should have muslim teachers. But we shouldn't isolate them from the rest of society.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 16 2002,10:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 16 2002,10:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 16 2002,10:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think Bin Laden has better targets than Sweden!  

But what kind of message does moving to a country, then insulating yourselves from it, send out? That you are in the country to take it's benefits, but not wanting to be a part of it. This may not be an act of blatant hostility but it will always cause friction, as Longinius has demonstrated for us.<span id='postcolor'>

well, integration into foreign society is never easy.

that's why it needs to be gradual. You just can't ask immigrants to totally abandon there life style from home. they need to slowly change, and that IC mentioned would represent their fear of loosing the roots, i.e. getting integrated into Swedish society.<span id='postcolor'>

Then pardon my saying so, Why move to Sweden?<span id='postcolor'>

why not?

[LauryThorn 0]

I have nothing against muslims - although some of them may be weird.

Some of them don't want to integrate into foreign societies,

that IC is proof of that.

When I was in boy scouts, one muslim kid wanted to be a scout

too, but then, he wasn't allowed to be in a room with a cross on wall. That may be another example of non-integrating type of people.

Jehova's witnesses are another good example of people

wanting to reject society.

In Finland, those guys don't go to army and stuff, because

they don't want to be part of the society. Still, I think that

they use the public services, like libraries, hospitals and such..

"Bin Laden has better targets than Sweden"

Well, Sweden is internationally kind of "neutral" country, IMO,

but still, they are christians, and that could be good reason enough.

Personally, I don't know what to think of all this Bin Laden / Al Qaeda stuff.

Recently, there was this article about the telephones in the

American Airlines' 747's, and how the phone calls from hijacked planes were just a bluff.

If so, how can one be sure that the planes were hijacked in

the first place? And how can one know, who the hijackers were? The same site that hosted the "telephone article", had an interesting story about remotely controlling

planes..

[fraggit 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jehova's witnesses are another good example of people

wanting to reject society.

In Finland, those guys don't go to army and stuff, because

they don't want to be part of the society. Still, I think that

they use the public services, like libraries, hospitals and such..

<span id='postcolor'>

My friend who is a Jehova's witness said he can't join the army because of religious beliefs, so I don't think it has to do with not wanting to integrate into the culture.

On the main subject, I think they should have an IC but not isolate themseleves from the society. I've seen first hand what happens when people isolate themseleves from the culture.

[ralphwiggum 6]

and yes, Osama boasted about his work on WTC so that he can draw criticism to US...

is it another folgery that one of the alledged hijacker's video of promise of jihad against US was a part of Osama's video?