aleksadragutin

Ok, no one said that they didn't cooperate. He wasn't completely wrong. USA is the dominant force that is controlling NATO and currently shaping European geopolitical landscape. I mean, what did the Germans do when they found out that CIA was spying on them? Nothing. That speaks for itself.

True, but the later membership of NATO is indisputable. There would be no military integration if the aim wasn't to eventually be in the same pact.

Yes, those are steps taken to ensure later integration with the alliance.

Because EU membership eventually leads to NATO membership, and in spite of what you may think, NATO means no good for those not in it (why would it). We all know that the cold war never really stopped and NATO sure isn't going to be quiet about Russia is getting stronger and more of a competition.

Shooting your self with a "rifle" must be pretty awkward.

Yes, people were sick of him stealing, so they elected an oligarch as president and a boxer as mayor. Surely they are qualified and can successfully run the country without stealing.

Mhm, I'm sure he could reason with these people. Let's not forget that hey had the support of Washington and Berlin, so just dealing with them wasn't gonna cut it. As I seem to remember, Putin did offer a deal which involved Ukraine not taking steps towards the EU, that's why the protests started in the first place. I shouldn't use the word naive a lot, but that really is a naive look at things.

You can view this as a sort of an intrusion of NATO in the Russian sphere of interests. Imagine a coup in a bordering country that replaced a friendly government, and then having a possibility of enemy nuclear missiles and troops being stationed right next to your border. Even a small possibility of anything like that happening is more than enough to provoke this kind of a reaction. Not to mention the large number of Russian speakers. What is the alternative? Would they back down if you ask them politely?

Was there?

I didn't say that (you like to twist words a lot), I said that both blocks are acting like dicks from time to time, and that Russia is not the only guilty party here (I believe that the organizers of the coup and those that backed them are to blame). In fact Russian behavior is completely understandable and logical in a given situation. The fact that it is in Ukraine is just though luck for Ukrainians. The war hasn't got anything to do with crazy Russia conquering the world again, as often depicted. Think about it in a broader context, what would you have done?

Ok, what about the most recent NATO statements, a couple of pages back, or the coup that started it all? Is it really just the big bad wolf Russia launching all the propaganda? My point in this thread has always been that this is a tug of war, and Russia cant play it by itself, it needs an opponent which in this case is NATO. A simple clash of interests and Ukraine got the short end of it. If you're quick to point out Russian propaganda, what about the loads of crap coming from the US? Doesn't that count? Remind me, how did the US react when it saw USSR spread in Cuba? It's the same with Ukraine, only now it's NATO that's trying to spread.

Aren't you doing the same thing? In your opinion he's stubborn, misinformed and trolling, while you view your self as always right off course. How is this a "discussion"? The proving wrong again and again and again part I don't understand. In most of the discussions very few things have actually been proven, pro or con.

It's funny that they only now started worrying about western credibility.

I didn't say that it did.

Ok, Stalin is a good example too, but Leonidas and Custer are completely different things. But Hitler was very well known for his stubbornness after his mental health deteriorated in the last years and months of the war. There's no need to take this any further because it's pointless, I already said that I don't think of Poroshenko or Ukraine as successors to nazi Germany, that's just a comparison that came to mind.

Deserter is a soldier that leaves his post in spite of his orders. That includes retreating without orders. And this is a dumb discussion, I simply made a comparison, so why are you always eager to escalate things?

Yes but in the end it worked for him, and not for Hitler. The deserters were shot in Germany as well as every other country.

I'm not saying that Poroshenko is evil like Hitler, just that he is fixated and stubborn, like him.

This kinda reminds me of Hitlers orders to hold ground against all common sense in the last years of WW2.

Those soldiers that Kremlin recognized were captured in small teams (probably scouts) and near the border, as I seem to remember.

That's actually a Croatian assault rifle, not Serbian.

Hahahahahahaha, excellent joke. Wait. Are you really serious? ---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ---------- You must be the only sensible guy here (with honest exceptions).

But for what purpose? If you fight fire with fire, all you get is a bigger fire. And if they are so keen on stopping Russian supply, why don't they take care of Russia directly, instead of fighting them through Ukrainians?

You obviously didn't follow this. I oppose US interventions of any kind. You misunderstood me once again, the US (not the people, the government) would like to jump in, either directly or just arm the Ukrainians, but not because it cares about those Ukrainians, but because it wants to extend its reach (preferably if Ukrainians would do that for them). That's what I meant to say.

You misunderstood me. I ment to say that the US does not really care about the Ukrainians, and that it does not feal the need to stop this war. They'l fight to the last Ukrainian (as someone joked). And the US did have a role to play in this conflict. Everyone forgets that the rebelion was a reaction to the revolution in Kiev. ---------- Post added at 01:54 ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 ---------- Easy for you to say that war is better, you don't live here.