RUBIX

ricnunes, I may have a few quick answers to why these are happening, but no real solutions client side. I have been working on some issues pertaining to this, and should have something tangible for BIS to use to help develop the flight model further and correct some of the problems. The "DIVE" you are experiencing is coming from a incorrect FM representation of Retreating Blade Stall. The only way to correct this at the moment is to fly 10 knts under the Vne (Velocity Never Exceed) mark on the Airspeed Indicator. Any flight near this will cause (in the current FM) a loss of control input (NOTE: Fast control inputs near Vne are likely what initiate the loss of control (in the current FM)). The "HARD MANEUVERS" issue you are experiencing is coming from a [Reversed Effect] of the actual effect from Higher Positive G maneuvers. In the current FM the Rotor RPM will Drop when Positive G's increase, and thus the engine will over-torque to compensate for the RPM Drop. This is incorrect, as High G's will produce higher RPM's. Again, I am working to help BIS on these issues, please allow some time before you see a fix. Thanks, RUBIX

toby23, I think I may have an answer to some of you texture/level of detail issues. I too had some issues with LOD always changing on me. I would fly around with texture detail on VERY HIGH and it would start out great...then after a short time everything would blur out and go to near minimum detail. After reading how and why BIS put some of the options in the Advanced section of the Video Settings, I realized what I was doing it wrong. I was thinking, "I have an awesome machine, and everything should be VERY HIGH." Well, it turned out that by setting the VIDEO MEMORY to VERY HIGH screwed up how the engine processes LOD. Just change the VIDEO MEMORY to DEFAULT and let me know if this fixes some of the things you mentioned: # LOD changing 100m away # Ground scenery detail at unacceptable levels # Unreadable Cockpits Here is a link to a good read about VIDEO SETTINGS ( http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=126178 ) Thanks, RUBIX

coolts, What difficulty are you using? I started with the expert, and everything responded normally. I then chose to go with trainee in order to get "HUD info waypoints permanently" while flying. But as soon as I went there, the helicopter was near uncontrollable during takeoff. I was baffled, but then I realized that the Trainee mode had Auto-trim turned on. After I disabled Auto-trim, I was back in action. I would love to fly on expert mode, but some missions are stressful when you don't have the situational awareness of actually being in the helicopter; I found the permanent waypoints a good way to add situational awareness. RUBIX p.s. I don't use manual trim for takeoff. Only use manual trim for long legs of flying.

I am going to try and cover my thoughts on the flight dynamics of the community preview, and give as much constructive criticism as possible. I am looking for this thread to become a common place for real life pilots to give their feedback and discuss with each other about their ideas and ways to improve the flight dynamics. Here is a small list of things that I have been focusing on to get things started: 1) Torque and pedal control – The torque of the engine on the airframe seems to be reproduced in the simulator very well (maybe a little under simulated if anything), I can feel the forces on the helicopter as I change the collective position. Maybe I can get some feedback from other pilots about the amount of change in the torque from full down collective to full up collective. It will be interesting to get your opinions. As for the pedals, I feel good about having the pedals neutral at ‘light on the skids’ with low gross weight, because the neutral position is really a matter of how the mechanic and pilot want to set up the Push Pull Tubes and Rod Ends (The helicopter I currently fly is near neutral with low gross weight at ‘light on the skids’) (http://www.robinsonheli.com/srvclib/r44sb43a.pdf) This link shows the connection of the Push Pull Tube and Rod End with the Bellcrank...Changing this changes the tail rotor pitch at the neutral pedal position. The pedal authority is very limited however. Full pedal deflection does not represent itself with an out of control spin….especially in the right yaw direction. Hopefully the community could give some advice on how to make this more realistic. 2) Ground Effect – This is one of my favorite parts about the flight dynamics at the moment. The ground effect feels realistic and is represented very well. If I am landing on top of a building, I can feel the helicopter benefit from ground effect after entering a hover above the roof. And when I leave the roof I can feel the ground effect diminish, requiring more power to stay at altitude. 3) Strange roll associated with collective position – I am not sure about the reasoning behind the roll of the helicopter relating to the collective position. As you increase the collective the helicopter rolls right, and as you decrease the collective, the helicopter rolls left. When practicing autorotations in real life, the steps are not: Lower Collective, Right Cyclic, Aft Cyclic, Right Pedal. If someone knows something about this roll or is also curious about it, I would like to know your thoughts.

*Ding* *Lightbulb* I just read through KosPilot's post in the Autorotation's thread, and have finally realized why there is a roll associated with collective in forward flight: Now with collective changes, the amount of downwash will also change, effecting the amount of Transverse Flow Effect experienced. This will create the tendency for more right roll when adding collective and less right roll when lowering collective: *ding* However...this effect is much exaggerated in the current flight model, and should be reduced significantly. Another however...This should really be present through ETL and speed just above ETL (most notable between 10kts and 20kts...not at moderate to fast flight. Any other thoughts? ---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ---------- I have found a good discussion thread about the different effects on the helicopter rotor system in different aspects of flights. Graviman's post at 10th Nov 2007, 08:24 explains a lot of different effects. http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-299441.html

A lot of that has been covered and I am glad you have summarized them and are keeping them active in the threads. I do like that you mentioned something new that needs to be discussed. This is very necessary. I hope to see some sort of trim indicator for the cockpits. In reply to some of the UI problems you are having The helicopters are governor controlled, and TOH is assuming that the governor will always be managing the throttle, thus no need for an analog throttle. If you have bound the throttle to and analog control, it wont work. I have mine bound to the hat left 270 and right 090 directions for easier start sequences. You need to go to the options menu --> game options --> freelook interface (change to disabled). This will stop the mouse from controlling the view (make sure you unbind the mouse from the cyclic controls, or you will be moving the cyclic when you move the mouse). You will have to hold the left alt if you would like to use the mouse to click inside the cockpit. I have the left alt bound to my joystick and the click to use also bound to my joystick...This way I can use TrackIR to view the cockpit interaction and click it without taking my hands off the controls. If anyone wants me to fully describe my setup, please PM me.

I am still concerned about that roll associated with collective; it makes any nap-of-the-earth flying very difficult. I feel that they may be using collective position to assist in the dissymmetry of lift effects (Which I feel is incorrect, as the collective changes the pitch of all blades equally [knowing that this may produce a slight difference in the advancing and retreating sides, I feel it shouldn't be nearly as much as simulated currently]). The dissymmetry of lift, Vne, and retreating blade stall all seem to need a little more attention. Flying above Vne doesn't seem to produce any negative effects if you are maintaining a straight and level forward flight. If, however, you try to pitch or roll the aircraft (even slightly) the first consequence is a rapid decrease in rotor rpm. After the initial rpm droop, the helicopter pitches nose down and is unrecoverable (even with full down collective and aft cyclic). IRL I have only felt the precursors leading up to retreating blade stall once, and it was due to acute mountain turbulence while flying near Vne. The helicopter pitched nose up and slowed itself down as a result (I lowered collective a little and continued the deceleration until reaching a safe speed for the turbulence). From what I have learned, this is the main effect of retreating blade stall as well as a roll in the direction of the retreating blade (not the uncontrollable pitch nose down). Something else to talk about is the rotor rpm droop when pitching nose up in a fast forward flight creating a high G-load (but not excessive). I have noticed this quite a bit, and it is very unsettling. What happens IRL is that the blades cone (creating higher rpm due to the Coriolis Effect) and the Lift Vector in front of the axis of rotation (due to the upward airflow through the rotors, creating a resultant relative Wind that is below the rotational airflow). This shift produces less drag on the blades, and even an acceleration vector in a region of the blades, which also produces higher RPM. So the effect in game is opposite of what it should be. Something to note, however, is that when the helicopter leaves the higher G-load stage of flight and into a normal or low G-load stage of flight (the blades flatten out from their coned position and the resultant relative wind may no longer be below the rotational airflow) the RPM will see a decay that could be very substantial depending on how much of a G-load change there was between these two stages.

It seems that the topic of this thread has changed. I hope that we can get back on track. I started this thread to discuss flight dynamics IRL and in TOH, and hoped to broaden our knowledge as a community. I know that the developers for BIS are very active with their community and that they do take the time to read what we have to say. Let us try to open discussions about different flight characteristics in TOH that may needs some guidance and offer the best solutions we can. p.s. 'Best feedback and communication from developers award' goes to...a tie between: BIS and Mojang ---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ---------- Recommended reading: Rotorcraft Flying Handbook FAA-H-8083-21 U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration This is a great book for the basics of helicopter flight: For all who are interested

Okay, I definitely need some help. I would like to pre-order to get into the Beta, but I would also like a physical copy. I think I found a solution, but I need to know if I am allowed to do it: I am thinking of pre-ordering to get the beta, then buy the hard copy when the game is released, and finally give the digital copy to my friend. Is this feasible? Let's just say I like having the original; I still have the original SimCopter and the aviator glasses that came with the box game.

Thank you Max Power for the info. I will definitely give that a read.

This conversation has sparked a lust for knowledge concerning the retreating blade stall topic. I have an open-ended research project this semester, and I believe I will focus on dissymmetry of lift, retreating blade stall, and gyroscopic precession. Thanks for the push for more knowledge. I hope to see you flying around after October 27th. RUBIX

In a rotating body such as a rotor disc (the disc created by the rotating blades), you must remember that gyroscopic precession (maximum deflection will occur ~90degs after force is applied to a spinning object) does play a major part in the dynamics of the rotor disc. In the retreating blade stall, the retreating blade has the lest amount of lift when it is straight out to the left (in a counter-clockwise rotor system); this is where the force is applied to the rotor disc, and the maximum deflection will occur ~90degs later when the retreating blade is in the aft position. What this means is that the disc will be tilted aft and produce a pitching up of the helicopter (not a left roll). I hopes this helps clear things up. I have not had a chance to test the 84444 flight model yet; I was just writing a response to the current conversation.

I am glad to see that we have a new Community Preview (84444) that focuses on the flight model. I need to head to work for the weekend, so I wont be able to test it until Monday. After a quick test when it was first released, I still have concerns over the fact that the helicopter (while sitting on the ground, rpm at 100%, and with collective fully lowered) will produce a dirt storm that shouldn't be there. Here is a video of a cobra on takeoff (I could have found better one, but I am pressed for time). You can see that the dirt wont be disturbed until lift is being produced (@ 0:30 in the video) Jw0SCvmiDBY @Jibemorel_Thanks for the help

This is a feature I was hoping for. I would love to start helping others learn to fly in the Take On Helicopters world. I have read many threads where people are excited to learn how to fly and enjoy TOH to the fullest. p.s. If you are interested, feel free to PM me; when TOH is released, we can set something up.

I was just introducing that as a problem with the recovery. The flight model needs to reflect a more developed vortex ring state if collective is added. And the proper solution would be to lower collective and fly into clean air (in any direction). Test out the vortex ring state and post your thoughts. (I could just be hoping it is there, but it might not be).

Has anyone noticed that vortex ring state (settling with power) seems to have an introduction in the last two updates? At 0 knots and a high descent rate, the helicopter becomes unstable and pitches, roles, and yaws. However, when I add more collective, the helicopter seems to recover itself without any forward airspeed; although this does take a little time.

I would love to pre-order Take On Helicopters, but I also love to have the physical copies of the software I purchase. I was ready to purchase the pre-order when it was first announced, until I noticed it was only for a digital download. I will happily wait for the physical copy and pay full price to support Take On Helicopters (you can basically count this post as a pre-order if you were using them to see how much interest there is) Waiting with much enthusiasm, RUBIX

I think he means, No Tail Rotor....Or Damaged Tail Rotor....I don't think he meant to refer to the NOTAR Tail rotor system used on the MD520N or similar. @ocramweb NOTAR is a term used by Mcdonnell Douglas Helicopters to describe their anti-torque system http://www.mdhelicopters.com/v2/notar.php

That was fun. I enjoyed attempting running landings without a tail rotor. In a hover, the helicopter torque was very noticeable and the right yaw felt correct; although I have not been in that situation myself. I did notice that the tail rotor had some effectiveness in forward flight....even when the damage was set to 1.0. I wonder what that damage rating actually means. If it means that the tail rotor is no longer turning (i.e. a tail rotor gearbox failure) then there should not be any response from pedal input.

You are right Max Power, the roll created by the tail is translated around the CG. I don't know what I was thinking in my last post. On to a new topic. I am noticing that there is a lot of downwash created when the main rotor blades are at flat pitch and the helicopter is on the ground. Downwash is created when lift is being produced, this means that dust and grass shouldn't be pushed around while the helicopter is sitting on the ground with full down collective. I also saw another post where someone described downwash exsisting even when the main rotor was destroyed. I hope this can be corrected.

I see your point, and how the tail rotor it does create the roll. But are you sure about your description of the direction? Does the tail rotor produce a roll around the main rotor hub? If so, wouldn't a tail rotor in a counterclockwise system produce a left roll if it were below the hub and a right roll if it were above the hub? A good example comes from using your description of the low g situation when the tail rotor is above the main rotor hub with the nose down pitch it creates a right roll. The most important question should be, do the developers need to try and implement this in the flight dynamics? About the hover characteristics, I have a knew way of describing the dynamics. When the helicopter is in a hover, the center of gravity (CG) of the helicopter will hang directly below the main rotor hub. When you change the cyclic position, the main rotor disc will tilt in the desired direction, but the CG will want to hang directly below the main rotor hub. This creates a thrust in the desired direction without a lot of cabin roll. This description is mainly useful in the dynamics of small inputs during a hover.

I like what you have to say about dissymmetry of lift nightsta1ker. I think that the roll associated with the collective that I was talking about early is incorrect and should be removed. If someone can explain why it should be in there, let me know. As for the Translating tendency, that comes from the tail rotor thrust and should induce a right drift, not a right roll. And the drift should be increasingly more prevalent with more left pedal and should decrease with right pedal. With the testing I have done, I feel that this tendency is implemented correctly. In hover, the game does feel like the helicopter has to pitch and roll a lot in order to get any lateral movement. I think what could be happening is that the main rotor disc and the cabin are too rigidly connected. The main rotor disc should move a little more independently from the cabin and produce the lateral movements without so much cabin pitch or roll. As for the forward flight and turns, I agree, the roll needed to get a standard turn rate seems excessive. Maybe someone can post a video of a helicopter in a standard turn rate at 70 knots so the devs can get a feel for what it should be.

@CarlGustaffa Read my first post in the 'Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots' thread; under the first point about flight dynamics, I describe my experience with this in real helicopters

Pertaining to the thread topic, I have a theory about my third point...I hope a dev can comment on this...I believe that they are trying to use the roll associated with collective position as a way to demonstrate Dissymmetry of Lift. This would be an incorrect implementation; Dissymmetry of Lift would result from airspeed and not collective position, and it wouldn't induce a right roll as nightsta1ker says below. Let me know your thoughts. On a side note: Congratulations nightsta1ker