nightsta1ker
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Posts posted by nightsta1ker
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http://rainman.tv/index_files/rainman_helisim.htm
These are in the mail. I should have them by the end of next week. Cost me a cool 2 grand :eek:. I plan on using them for training students using X-plane and the Dreamfoil R-22 that I played a role in helping to develop. The combination should be very very realistic, and in this tough economy, I think helping students save money on flight training and maximize their skills in a low cost environment will be a good move. I might be able to lure a couple of students away from the bigger flight schools that are all about keeping rotors turning to generate more $$.
They may also make Take On a much nicer experience too! ;)
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After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine. I am not trying to say that as a pilot, my opinion is more valid than anyone elses. I am only trying to make the point that BIS has stated that they intend to provide a realistic (within the confines of a game) experience in the life of a career civil helicopter pilot, and in order to do that, they would need to place some extra attention and emphasis on real pilot feedback. Judging by the note from PurePassion, perhaps they have been, and maybe the Community Preview does not live up to what the actual game has in store for all of us, but it has been all we have to go by.
I just want to make sure that everyone understands where I am coming from. Please put the broken bottles down!
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The feature status you might like for all heli pilots :)Feature Status
Autorotation-----------------------------------yes
Transitional Lift--------------------------------yes
Retreating Blade Stall----------------------- yes
Vortex Ring State-----------------------------planned in patch
Fuel Consumption----------------------------yes
Weight Load-----------------------------------yes
Wind Direction & Speed---------------------yes
Engine Temperature (hotstarts)-----------yes
Transmission & Engine Stress
(overtorque)-----------------------------------yes
Rotors, Landing Gear,
Hull & Avionics Damage----------------------yes
Authentic simulated gauges
in 3D cockpit
(Barometric altimeter, RPM, Torque,
Temperature) simplified gauges as
helper in both imperial/metric units-------yes
Winch, Sling, & Fast-rope Simulation------yes
Interactive 3D cockpit with
simplified startup sequences
based on real life operating manuals
(electrical source, starter, APU,
throttle, radio, lights)-------------------------yes
Scaleable difficulty settings:
Autohover, auto-trim, auto-startup,
reduced stress limits.-------------------------yes
Interactive aircraft inspection
pre-flight checks-------------------------------yes
Maintenance & customisation
of helicopter equipment----------------------yes
Dual controls allowing
to switch pilot and copilot
roles during flight------------------------------yes
As a copilot player can operate
infrared camera, searchlight, doorguns---yes
Take care
Pure :)
To clarify to some of the others who wanted to know specifically what I meant by my comment:
Since this project was first announced, several real world pilots, myself included, have been very active on this forum giving suggestions and advice to help make this game all it can be. There was some static with the gaming community, some of whom thought realism should be sub-par to gameplay (playability and arcade style fun). Helicopters are challenging. They require alot of training, talent, skill, attention to detail, and most of all practice, to master. After reviewing and seeing reviews of the Community Preview releases, and seeing the changes that were implemented based on general feedback from the community, it started to seem to me that more attention was being paid to the general community than to the real pilots that were trying desperately to provide feedback and implement changes that were important to us. Changes that regarded the flight dynamics. After seeing several updates that did very little to improve the dynamics, and in some cases hurt them (alot of this due to complaints and suggestions being made by non pilots), I started to grow weary and stopped monitoring progress.
Hovercontrol staff member Cris Gaeth (aka Panther) noted that they would be reviewing the demo soon. So I popped on here to see if any good progress had been made with the flight profile. After reading some of the comments made by other pilots, I started to worry.
Thank you for the update PurePassion. I am glad you guys are going to implement all of those things. I just have one question, and it probably won't be answered until I buy the game when it is released and find out for myself: Will it all work the way it is supposed to? Will it feel right? Do your models fly like real helicopters? Your Community Preview was on the right track, but there were some elements that were lacking, and I was starting to get the impression that the flight model was not going anywhere. I just hope for everyones sake that it all feels right. I'm not going to be criticising because a temperature or pressure gauge is not reading exactly how I think it should, or maybe it takes off with 60% torque when it would really probably be 75 or 80%, they are fictional models. But helicopters all fly pretty similarly. Some are more sensitive than others, some sluggish, some fast, some slow, but they all have the same forces acting on them, and so their behavior is pretty predictable regardless of type or size (there are a few exceptions, but only a few).
I was just voicing my concern aloud. I have been very anxious to see a game like this come out for a long time. I have even had lengthy daydream discussions about it with other pilot/gamers. When this project was announced it felt like the Holy Grail had been revealed to me. It would be very disappointing to be let down because the flight model was unrealistic.
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I really hope they get this stuff ironed out. They need to listen to the real pilots. They have championed realism since they announced this project, but I am worried they are catering more to the Arma crowd than the pilot/simulator crowd. I think the game will sell more copies if they listen to us than if they don't.
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I passed my checkride on Sunday. I am now a certified helicopter instructor. So... who wants to take lessons? :D
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In windy conditions, especially on ships, rotor brake is also used to quickly stop main rotor on shutdown to prevent excessive flap of the blades that can occur in that conditions (vertical and rolling deck movement, wind gusts) when the rotor is not generating enough centrifugal force to counter it. Same thing on startup.My experience with shipboard ops taught me that the rotor brake was used primarily to keep time on deck low as each aircraft was limited to only 30 minutes on deck before it either needed to be airborne or placed in the hanger deck. Gotta make room for the next round of inbound or outbound aircraft.
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Copyright infringement? On models? I thought it was only use of name and trademarks. Are there any legal examples of such (mal) practice? Just curious, that's all.Yes, basically they can only sue for infringement on name and trademarks. As I said, the reason is unknown, but they have addressed the issue and stated that they are not changing the models to be more realistic. Whatever their reason, the decision has been made.
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is there or will there be a chance to change the vert fine on the 500 to a T type tail... as i personally dont like the way it is now.....This is one subject that has been thoroughly done to death. Nothing against your remark, you didn't know. Just to recap, For reasons that have been speculated but are unknown to the public BIS has decided to not include accurate visual models of real helicopters. The best and most likely to be true guess is probably that they are afraid of copyright infringement. In any case, we are going to have to wait for the modders to create accurate aircraft after the game releases.
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I have determined that realistic autorotations in the preview are not possible.
Hopefully this is ironed out before the final release.
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My response to that is: Amount of lift with collective input varies with model of helicopter. Flying the H269C/S300C requires much more control movement than an R22, just as one example. So, I would have to say, it's relative. Also, perhaps your control sensitivities are not set properly. Depending on the setup different users may experience different things.
---------- Post added at 11:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 PM ----------
Then again, you could be completely right. Not something I noticed as being too unrealistic in my test flying though.
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-Ziggy-;1994140']my instrument panel features working instruments ... :rolleyes:
I think what he meant is things like knobs on the altimiter have no effect on the indication etc. The gauges "work" but only to a limited degree.
Dragon: Keep in mind that restrictions of ArmA OA are limiting what can be demonstrated in the preview and some of these issues may not be present in the final version of the game.
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that's what I meant .and good luck for your checkride ;)
Yeah thanks... I'm so close, yet so far away, lol!
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Thanks, I made myself, different combination of those just for testing, the heli at first release, but thanks for sharing it with the community...I didn't my bad. You could add a-280 and a +610 on the weight as well so people can feel the difference between an empty heli and a one at max weight, or even over:I think the weight use on the demo heli is taken from a 530F
Empty Weight=722 kg
Max Takeoff Weight=1610 kg
*set at 1000kg by default in demo (vehicle player setcustomWeightRTD +650)
as well as with and without wind ... (30 setWindforce 10)
If you look closely at the tail with damage set to 1 there is NO tail rotor no more at all ! (visually)
Then during a landing with a tail rotor failure, I will avoid using the anti torque pedals..., and just right turn by using the collective, keeping enough speed not to twirl your head off ;)
And effectively, I meant NOTAR, not to go into the side effect of losing the maneuverability on the heli, but just to emphasis the fact that the preview, make us use the anti torque pedals not far from the way we will need to use them on a notar system, way less than we should with a tail rotor.
(not endorsed on Notar myself, but by the say of those who were...)
Any of you have to induce some pedal correction under 25 torque in no wind condition ingame ? I lift off at 14 empty and 17 at max weight (takistant runway summer time) but I do not need to use the anti torque pedals under 25 or event 30 torque (depending of force and wind direction..) It does not make me feel right at all..
I've never flown a NOTAR helicopter, so I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that NOTAR helicopters had WEAK pedal control and required MORE pedal input by the pilot. I know about coandă effect, and thus raising collective means less left pedal required and that this is what you meant, but in foreward flight I have heard that the aircraft is not as manueverable due to less pedal effectiveness. A U.S. Border Patrol pilot I knew told me that he was thoroughly worn out after just an hour of flying the MD600N. He hated it and hoped they would replace them. As of now the entired Border Patrol fleed of 600Ns are in storage. I have however heard that the 520Ns are alot better. Glendale PD in SoCal has been operating them for years with no issues and they love them.
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I think he means, No Tail Rotor....Or Damaged Tail Rotor....I don't think he meant to refer to the NOTAR Tail rotor system used on the MD520N or similar.@ocramweb
NOTAR is a term used by Mcdonnell Douglas Helicopters to describe their anti-torque system http://www.mdhelicopters.com/v2/notar.php
That's what I thought he meant. Peaked my interest. And by the way, Mcdonnell Douglas is no more. Now it's MD Helicopters, which is another entirely different company that bought the rights to the airframe from Boeing who absorbed Mcdonnell Douglas. The company is not doing so hot, aside from the fact that the 500 series and even the 520N are amazing and versatile helicopters, not many are being sold. And the company is losing millions in lawsuits over the 600N which has an abyssimal accident rate. Nearly half of the 600 fleet has either crashed or been grounded since the aircraft's inception.
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Totally agree on the NOTAR state...What do you mean by this?
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Good catch Max Power, I couldn't have put it better myself.
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Translating tendency DOES provide a rolling moment to the right, but only if the center of the tail rotor is lower than the main rotor hub (thats why some of the larger helicopters have the tail rotor on a vertical stabilizer, the reduction in rolling moment due to translating tendency is worth the extra weight in gearboxes and driveshafts). The relationship between the the rolling moment of the tail rotor and the plane of rotation of the main rotor is called roll/couple. I don't know much more about it than that, but it's worth looking into, I can probably find a better explanation in one of my heavier books.
A good example of this is the right roll that occurs in a low G condition in the R22. When the rotor is unloaded in low G, the rolling moment from the tail rotor causes a rapid roll to the right. This is the primary reason why low G is so dangerous for helicopters with a teetering hub: if the pilot corrects for the right roll with left cyclic the unloaded rotor will bump the mast and or strike the tailboom. That little scenario would ruin anyones day.
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I personally would love to see more of this implemented. It was addressed at the very beginning. I am not sure if it will be more advanced in the final version, but don't be surprised if what you see is what you get.
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I beleive that right roll in the hover is an attempt at modeling translating tendency, however, it is way too extreme and does not seem to dissipate with forward airspeed as it should.
On Dissymmetry of lift.
As I have mentioned in another thread, dissymmetry of lift is caused by the forward airspeed of the aircraft adding airspeed to the advancing side of the rotor disc and subtracting airspeed from the retreating side of the disc. If nothing were done mechanically to solve this issue then helicopters would be limited to stationary hovering. Lucky for us Juan de la Cierva found the solution: Flapping hinges. Allowing the additional lift from additional airspeed on the advancing side to flap the blade up, and then down on the retreating side. This changes the Angle of Attack of the blade so that the rising advancing blade is creating LESS lift, and the retreating blade is creating MORE lift, despite the significant difference in airspeed. The end result is the lift vector is balanced on both sides of the disc. Ergo: No rolling moment in forward flight. At least, until you get the helicopter up to an airspeed where the flapping hinge can no longer compensate for the difference in airspeed, at which point, you would experience a vibration and oscillations followed by simultaneous roll to the left (on counterclockwise turning rotor systems) and a pitch up of the nose. This is called retreating blade stall, when the retreating blade side has lost so much airspeed due to the forward motion of the helicopter that it can no longer produce lift, and is the limiting factor in helicopter airspeed.
Questions are welcome. Comments will be tolerated as long as they are intelligent in nature. :D
More to come as I have time.
---------- Post added at 02:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------
OK, so I tested out the latest update. Here are my thoughts.
On the plus side, the obliteration of the null zone did a world of good. Now I can much more easily feel and see the flight characteristics for what they are rather than constantly over correcting my inputs and chasing the stupid thing all over the place.
Now that I can accurately feel the flight dynamics, lets address some issues.
Pedal control is WAAAAAY too light. Small inputs should yield rapid turns.
Though the helicopter will pitch very quickly with input, the actual ground movement is slow to respond. A real helicopter will slide left, right, foreward and back with almost imperceptible pitch changes. The helicopter should be moving over the ground alot more than it is pitching around its axis.
Please decrease the volume and increase the rate of the vibration occuring at ETL. It's a nice touch, but it does not achieve the intent if it doesnt look and feel right. I have said it before, the vibration experienced at ETL is more HEARD than felt, you would be better simulating the PANEL vibrating along with a rattling noise than having the whole helicopter shaking. It just doesn't look or feel right at all.
What on earth is that right rolling tendency in forward flight? As the helicopter moves into ETL an odd thing happens called Transverse Flow Effect, the front part of the rotor is moving into clean air and the the flow into the rotor system is more horizontal than vertical, however, the induced flow at the back of the rotor is increased and the flow is more vertical than horizontal, the result is a difference in angle of attack (and thus, lift) between the front and back of the disk, not entirely unlike what is occurring during dissymmetry of lift in forward flight, though for completely different reasons. Basically, the front part of the disk is in ETL and the back part is not. The effect of this is the vibration I mentioned earlier, as well as a pitch up and slight right roll of the helicopter. The pilot must push through this in order to gain airspeed. Once the ENTIRE rotor system is through ETL this effect goes away, and rather quickly. There should be no right or left rolling tendency in foreward flight unless VNE is exceeded.
Rate of turn in forward flight vs amount of bank angle is way off. A smaller bank should yield a higher turn rate than what is simulated. No pedal input should be necessary to aid in turns in forward flight.
It IS definitely starting to feel like a helicopter, just with some unusual behavior. Good job gentleman and please keep improving! Listen to what the pilots are all saying, I keep reading about the same issues over and over again.
Please watch my youtube videos. I have real helicopter footage as well as some very good helicopter simulator footage, the most recent being the DreamFoil R22 in alpha testing for X-Plane. This thing flies like a real R22. Watch carefully how it behaves compared to the TOH model.
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No, it doesn't make sense. The helicopter abides by exactly the same rules whether you use a mouse or a joystick. The only way it gets less realistic is by BI downgrading the flight model to accommodate non-joystick control. Obviously that's not needed if an alternative way of rudder control for keyboard is implemented. Because the devs have made the controls already excellent as is, my eyebrow raises when somebody tells me that I am required to use a joystick if I am to play the game or expect any kind of realism from it, especially when the devs are still learning from feedback and adding requested features.OK. I see your point. As smart as I would like to think I am, I can be dense sometimes. I get what you are saying. I was skimming the thread and my mind was filling in the blanks. After reading some of the posts a little more carefully I realized that you were not complaining about it being too difficult to control with a keyboard, but merely wanting a more fluid rudder control function FOR a keyboard. I apologize.
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What are the apples and what are the oranges again? Ignoring the fact that the mouse and keyboard controls are very nearly perfect, you stated that you must use a joystick if you want realism. And you use that as an argument for BI to not implement a rudder control system that would solve the problem for mkb users.I did no such thing. Now you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that my opinion is that you shouldn't be begging a "realistic" flying helicopter when you don't even have a joystick. Like I said in my first post: Helicopters are not flown with a keyboard and mouse, so trying to fly one with a keyboard and mouse is not very realistic. I did not complain about their tank controls for ArmA being "unrealistic" as I do not have real tank controls. I have actually driven a tank and I don't think they are modeled correctly in the game, however, I did not say BOO about it until now and only to make a point. Point being, if you are not going to bother with proper controls, don't ask for realism. You are cutting yourself short on the realism part by refusing to get a joystick.
Now, do I feel BI should implement some sort of anti-torque function to make it easier for keyboard users? Sure! I have no problems with that. Just keep in mind, whatever they come up with will not be "realistic". Realism to me is having pedals, a cyclic and a collective in my hands. Even a joystick falls somewhat short in that category. It's all relative, but the farther away from real controls you get, the less realistic. Does that make ANY sense to you?
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Celery, my point is that it's apples and oranges. You hardcore keyboard guys are blowing my mind.
Do whatever you want. My joystick cost me $30. It has proven itself worth every penny.
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BI pretty much proved that you can make awesome helicopter controls for mouse and keyboard without sacrificing much realism or performance. Making it almost 1:1 comparable to joystick in terms of flying performance rests on this pedal control feature.I don't see how you can implement smooth and ergonomic pedal control without a joystick or pedals. I've thought about it, and I just don't see how it could be done. Like Carl said, if you don't have the necessary controls, use the aids that enable you to fly it WITHOUT the necessary controls. I think it's hypocritical to ask for realism and then complain that on full realism settings you can't control the helicopter with your keyboard and mouse. If you wan't realism, get some real controls. If you want to fly with a mouse and keyboard, you are going to have to sacrifice some realism. You don't fly a real helicopter with a mouse and keyboard. Just my two cents
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Just thought I would share: Just got a 90% on my CFI Helicopter Knowledge exam. Now with both knowledge exams out of the way, all I need is a few more hours of test prep before the checkride and I will be a certified helicopter instructor.
Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots
in TAKE ON HELICOPTERS - COMMUNITY PREVIEW
Posted
Alot of what you mentioned is indeed very trivial, and like I said, I am not expecting a perfect simulation. Just some basic, decent flight modeling. And yes, it IS possible. I spent the last 4 months working with the developer of the Dreamfoil 206 for X-plane on his new R22BII. It is absolutely amazing how close his flight dynamics and systems are to the real thing. Is it perfect? No. X-plane has it's limitations too. But is it good enough to be very convincing? Absolutely. And I think with some focus, BIS could make a convincing flight model too. Does it need to be perfect? No. It just needs to be convincing.