My first impression

[My first impression]

Leftskidlow has a point about helicopter pilots. And I personally hated DCS Blackshark. For one, I guess I am just not an attack helo kind of guy. I probably would have been happy as a Loach scout pilot in Vietnam. That looks like my kind of flying. In any case to each his own. I am glad zaGURUinzaSKY is happy with the flight model. Clearly, though, he must not be a real heli pilot, because the flight dynamics are all kinds of jacked up. I don't find the flight model on expert realistic in the slightest. In fact, it's probably CLOSER to being realistic on the n00b mode because you don't have to deal with a ton of innacurately modeled difficulties that you would not see on a real helicopter.

In any case... the rest of the game is alright. Fun even. I have been enjoying flying missions. I just can't get over how poor the flight model is.

[Flight dynamics (important issues)]

More issues: With a new graphics card that runs everything well so poor hardware performance is no longer an excuse.

First off, everything mentioned before this still applies. I just wanted to tack on some other things I find really irritating and unrealistic.

Pedal turns... What the hell is up with the pedals? They don't want to work! Even with null zone gone and full sensitivity I kick the pedal all the way over and the helicopter slowly, lacadazically turns in whatever direction... Pedals on helicopers are sensitive. You kick that pedal (or fail to kick it in some cases) and you are going to be watching the world spin around you in a blur. The pedals need to be more sensitive. Alot more.

Man they REALLY want to roll over. That stability thing I talked about needs to get fixed pronto.

Control lag. Yes, there is still a control lag. Perhaps those of you not accustomed to flying helos, or even simulators for that matter, don't notice this, but there is a half second lag between my control inputs and the response. This would be a little more realistic in the heavy helicopter, but not the light or even much in the medium.

There is also a weird relationship between the pedal and the cyclic. I cannot quite put my finger on what is going on because it is unpredictable, but when I move the pedals, the helicopter wants to roll and pitch around a bit. Very strange and not lifelike at all. Also, there seems to be a need for left pedal at higher airspeeds... this is backwards from reality. More pedal is needed in a hover, less is needed as the aircraft accelerates.

Also, thought I should note, the jump between trainee and expert is pointless. The helicopter is exponentially harder to fly, but not because it is "more realistic" It's just harder. Nothing that changes from trainee to expert is something that you would see or feel in a real helicopter. I am sure with some time, I could get used to the quirks and learn to fly it, but it's not comparable to a real helo. Too many behaviors are not present, backwards, or otherwise modeled incorrectly. I can see some of this behavior and can recognize what BIS was trying to do, but they misunderstood something critical and got it wrong.

I know this is going to sound rude, and for that I apologize, but in my opinion it's the truth. BIS needs to fix these behavioral issues or they need to take this out of their advertisement of the game: "Authentic Flight Model - Incredibly realistic piloting experience." You failed to deliver.

Now with that said, if there is anything I or any of us real pilots can do to HELP you deliver, please please feel free to pick our brains. We WANT this game to be successful.

[Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding]

None of it is modeled correctly. I just installed my spankin new Nvidia GTX 550 card. The performance and graphics are WAY up from what they were, I am very happy with the new card, and I must say, the game looks pretty durn good now. But the flight dynamics are still atrocious.

I will be posting some details in my other thread about flight dynamics. I must say, I am still not impressed at all with that aspect of the game. It certainly is CHALLENGING, but it is not the least bit REALISTIC.

[Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding]

I got the point in the campaign where I needed to do an auto rotation. I did the training a few times and then managed to pull it off.

What do you do if you are in stationary hover though?

Get that collective down all the way, nose it over for airspeed, and hopefully you have enough altitude to pull of a decent flare. Use whatever you've got, flare, level the skids at 10 feet and let it settle.

[Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding]

That is not the proper way to do an auto. Interesting that I've seen that same error in FS2002, FS2004, FSX, and X-Plane.

Care to elaborate Chris? I actually find that X-plane is pretty close to reality as far as autos go, depending on the helicopter of course.

---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

Depending on the rigging of a helicopter you sometimes have to pull in a little collective to keep the RPM from overspeeding. You can also adjust glide distance with rotor rpm/speed but usually it's just full down to the stops if the mechanics rigged it right. I remember having to pull in a bit of collective for that mission, seemed a little strange but you just do whatever it takes to get the aircraft to behave when it comes to helicopters.

Depends on the type. In an R22 with two people, you need to keep an inch or so of collective in or you will overspeed the rotors. However, if you are by yourself, it will be down to the stop and you will have the low rotor horn going off the whole way down. Courtesy of a low inertia rotor system :cool:

[Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding]

I have done quite a bit of training in R22s and S300s. I am currently an instructor at a school that uses S300s. Renton in fact, which is the airport that they had you do your autorotation training in the game. I have a few hours in some other ships (MD500, Bell 206, UH-1D) and I was in the service for many years as a Chinook Mechanic/Crewcheif and I have over 1000 hours of night, combat, NVG time as a crewmember.

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

That one's much more reasonable. BIS added a link to the most high-end ones, I guess.

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

Thanks! I wasn't using collective at all, as the instructor lowered it to zero and set throttle to idle. No wonder I wasn't getting anywhere. I thought we weren't supposed to mess with it until the very end?

Nope, when he says "lower the collective and bring the throttle to idle", you need to lower the collective all the way to enter the auto, then raise it a bit as necessary to get your desired descent rate. Use your cyclic to control your airspeed and rate of closure on your target area.

[Flight dynamics (important issues)]

One thing to note here. Real helicopter pilots aren't likely to get in the air and try to test this on a real helicopter. It is a very dangerous thing to test. But when you lose lift because of blade stall on the left side of the rotor disk, the disk doesn't fall on the left. It will fall on the back (90 degree precession thing). Then as the rotor blades come around on the right they are starting to flop back up and have greater attack on the air on the right side. This causes an excess lift on the right but the effect is a rise on the rotor disk in the front. Thus making the situation even worse. The roll to the left comes in when then body of the helicopter is resisting the pitch up effect of the rotor disk. This downward strain on the blades at front cause the disk to rotate down on the left and up stress on the back causes the disk to rotate up on the right. This is left roll you feel. So basically, you get a drastic up and left roll effect and usually serious damage to your rotors blades.

This would be a very UGLY situation to be in.

It's not that bad... and on some helicopters it's really difficult to get into. Where it becomes dangerous in situations where you are low to the ground, high density altitude, etc where it's hard to recover. The thing about retreating blade stall is, it's self correcting, when the nose pitches up, the helicopter slows down and it recovers itself. There have not been many incedences where this has caused a crash that I am aware of. One such incident happened to a Finnish military MD 500 Defender that was doing high speed NOE training and had the blades stall in a left bank. They rolled right into the ground. Often times, the helicopter does not even have enough power to get going that fast in the first place. You would see it at high density altitudes, where the rotors are less efficient and the blade stall happens at lower airspeeds, like mountain flying, and in descents with high forward airspeed. Also, there is usually a warning first, the helicopter sill start to oscillate on the edge. You really have to be accellerating THROUGH that barrier at a rapid rate to get into full blown RBS.

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

Thanks OMAC, I have that setup now, but I would still like an analogue option :)

[Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding]

Ok... just did, and passed the training first time go. Aside from issues with the flight dynamics that I have already identified (descent too slow, ground effect overexaggerated, and lack of torque/yaw effects) I think it was ok.

Not great, but ok. Definitely doable. Alot easier than in the real thing, that is for sure. I did all of this on expert settings with a real heli control setup.

Some tips, lower the collective then raise it to maintain 1000 fpm descent. Keep your forward speed around 60 until the flare. If you pull too much collective your rotors will stop turning. If you lower the collective too far, the instructor will complain about your rate of descent and you may undershoot the "pad". The second portion, to the ground, was much easier. At about 40 ft, flare by pulling back cyclic and slowing down, level at about 10 ft, and let the helicopter settle, using the collective as needed to keep the landing from being too hard.

Takes practice for begginners. That's all I can say. Practice practice practice. I've done hundreds of autos in the real thing and I still have room for improvement.

[Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding]

Playing on Expert with kb/mouse, the first time I tried the autorotation training, I somehow managed to complete the first, safe-altitude segment, even though I had no idea what I was doing. Since then, after about 100 tries, I only make it to the checkerboard about 1 in 25 tries. When I do get there in glide, I crash. This is not happening. Playing on Beginner makes no difference. Are you supposed to increase collective to help you get to the checkerboard, even though you are supposed to glide?

I must be missing something, and am committing major cockpit error. Either that, or BIS did not focus group this puppy. Either way, it totally sucks.

Also, when playing this training my GPU temps skyrocket to almost 100 degrees C, even though my fan is cranked to the max. FPS is in the 40s with vsync off. This overheating only happens in this training segment.

Any ideas on how I can get better at this? I already use num2 to look down a little when gliding. I don't use pedal as it reduces speed.

OMAC. I will take a look at this next. Haven't done the training yet. After what I have seen so far, I would be willing to bet it's not done accurately, HOWEVER, autorotations are the hardest manuever to accomplish in a helicopter, and it is the section that instructors see the most students drop out of training.

[Taxiing in ToH posible?]

I will check this out and see what I see. I have not flown the "heavy" yet.

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

Rigging cable will result in whoever doing the job start swearing it seems, I know I would:p

Back on topic, Yes a direct control over throttle would be a good addiction, but I don't seems to find any thorttle control on market that are specially design for rotary, is your rig custom built?

There are several available. This is what I have. http://rainman.tv/index_files/rainman_helisim.htm

There are also several other commercial manufacturers avialable. This stuff is pricey, and I wouldn't recommend it just for TOH. This is hardcore simmer stuff here. I use mine for training with X-plane (hardcore realistic flight dynamics), but it works for TOH too.

An analogue throttle setting could also be mapped to buttons on the joystick. We just need the ability to roll it on and off. I HATE having to look down at the throttle and use my mouse to bring it from full to idle, etc. In the real thing, I just twist my wrist. Buttons on a joystick, throttle quadrant for HOTAS sticks, and setups like mine would all benefit from having an analogue throttle setting. I don't think it would be very hard to implement. And those that don't want to use it don't have to!

[Flight dynamics (important issues)]

agreed to OP, but you forgot the stupidly annoying overly exaggerated ground effect. the ground effect ballooning of the helicopter is still there but it's not as bad as before, i don't think they understand when we tell them it's a cushion of air when we're IGE and that it requires LESS collective/blade pitch to hold a steady hover. i do agree that there is a ballooning effect in helicopter flight during hovering but it's not caused by ground effect. this is the only reason that i have encountered the ballooning effect. say if we do a left pedal turn and do not add more collective which means more power is transferred to the tail rotor to rotate the helicopter and there's less power available for the main rotor so we slowly descend, and when we see that descend we add more power but add too much and now we're gaining altitude and we just keep chasing the collective up and down. same thing for right pedal turns and not decreasing collective because we're using less power on the tail rotor so the main rotor has more power so we raise up a little bit and forget to lower collective, then we lower the collective when we realize we're ascending and we lower too much and we drop down again etc. however none of that is a big springing effect that bounces the helicopter back up 20ft when we're coming to IGE while descending down to the ground. how it should look like is we're descending and maybe 25ft above ground and we slowly increase collective to arrest the descend, as we're coming near the ground but still descending we stop adding collective at around 10ft or so and let the helicopter settling itself into IGE and that extra cushion of air will arrest our descend and we come into a hover. what it does NOT do is bounce us back up into the air unless we've added too much collective in the descending process which would result in us flying straight and level instead. it's not so bad when we're landing into solid ground but when you're trying to land on top of a building it gets ridiculous and totally throws you off your approach. i've landing on top of a building before in real life and there's no bouncing up when you get close to the top of the roof.

Actually, I DID mention the ground effect, I just did not go into as much detail as you did. The reason being, you had already covered it in another forum thread :D. Read my second paragraph again.

Regarding the torque effects on the tail rotor and the tail rotor on available power, I agree with you that this is not modeled properly, however, I this is a very difficult thing to model (not even Flight Simulator can model it properly, although somehow the Dodo team managed it with some external plug ins) and I don't expect to see that working fully in this game (it is after all, a game, not a simulator), though it WOULD be nice to see. I am trying to focus mainly on the blatantly OBVIOUS things that are annoyingly wrong. Things that contradict their claim of "realistic" flight dynamics.

Yes, it's a game, we know that. But if you claim "realistic" flight dynamics, the program needs to live up to that. I don't expect perfection here, but some of this stuff is very very backwards.

There are many great flying videos on Youtube, including some that I have done. Here's my channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/nightsta1ker1?feature=mhee Watch control movements and how the helicopter responds in some of these and compare it to the game. You can see the obvious differences.

[Question about Flight Model]

Not real sure I'm following you but I'll try to explain what I think you are referring to.

Lets say you wanna do a sharp right hand turn. High air speed. 60 degree banking turn.

A helicopter REALLY needs rudder input to assist in this turn. Too many airplane pilots just want to use ailerons and elevator only to make turns. This is actually wrong. Airplanes too need to be done using some rudder also... This is especially pronounced in helicopter flight.

There is some "weather veining" in helicopter turns but rudder greatly assists in getting the nose around.

Now if you are going to be doing an 80 degree turn (severe stunt) then you would have mostly up elevator (back on cyclic) like an airplane. This works well on small RC helicopters, but I wouldn't think a full scale could tolerate the stresses.

Sorry mate, this is incorrect. Helicopters need almost no pedal to assist in the turn. Pedals are there to counter torque and to "yaw" the helicopter. Though some adjustment to keep the helicopter in "trim" may be required, I find that most of my flying is done without moving the pedals.

Large pedal movements come as an adjustment to rotor torque is made. A reduction in torque requires right pedal, an increase requires left pedal.

In short, the pedals are only used to "turn" the helicopter in a hover. In forward flight, they are not used much and pretty much stay put. Quite a few helicopters out there don't even have a slip indicator! It's not considered important enough! I don't know where you got your information on this, but it's wrong.

By the way, TOH does not model this behavior correctly, so if you are basing your opinion off that, you would be making a mistake. :D

[Flight dynamics (important issues)]

These are the real issues plauging the flight model IMO. I am stealing the first part of this from my other post.

My impression so far is as follows:

Light and medium helos. In expert mode, with everything mapped except throttle, I feel like the helicopter wants to float. Full down collective and the helicopter settles at a very very reduced rate from the real thing. Lowering the collective in a real helo gives you a descent rate of 1500-2000 FPM. I am getting maybe 500 FPM in TOH. Also, the stability dynamics seem backwards. By this I mean that, a helicopter fuselage dangles from the rotor system, which is supporting it as it is the part that is actually flying. So imagine holding a pendulum from your hand. As you move your hand, the pendulum responds, this is the kind of motion that should be depicted in a hover. It seems opposite to me, more like trying to balance a pencil on your hand. It wants to fall over, whereas a pendulum wants to dangle directly below you and is trying to find its equilibrium. When you tilt the rotor disk in a helicopter in a hover, you slide in that direction, not roll over, because the airframe wants to stay DOWN. In order to roll the helicopter over, you need a pivot point, like a skid touching the ground, or a rock or a grass patch. It needs to GRAB something in order to give it that rolling moment. You cant just roll the heli over by applying lateral cyclic in the hover, you will just take off in whatever direction you pointed the cyclic until you correct it, or hit something. Not to say it WOULDN'T roll over if you completely rediculously overcontrolled the thing. But it doesn't inherrently WANT to do that.

How to fix it: Increase the descent rate to 2000 FPM with full down collective. Reduce the "ground effect" present in the game. It's totally overdone. The medium helo feels better about this than the light helo. I would recommend you make the light helo feel a little bit heavier. Reduce the rolling moment with cyclic input. Cyclic input should give the helicopter a directional movement over the surface without wanting to flip it over. Basically, stabilize the body of the helicopter a bit. The rotorsystem is tilting, not the airframe (at least, not as much, there is still some banking, etc, but it's way overdone here).

Regarding the throttle.... I have a full helicopter control set with a twist grip throttle on the collective. Is there any way you could assign an analogue setting for those of us that have the hardware to simulate a roll on/off throttle? This also may be helpful to people who have a HOTAS joystick. Being able to control the throttle is key to starting, shutting down, simulating power failures and dealing with things like governor failures (manually controlling the throttle setting for a given pitch setting). This would definitely make the pilot types happy.

Dyssemetry of lift: Modeled on the wrong side of the helicopter. The helicopter seems to have a tendency to roll right, and when I deliberately got over VNE to test retreating blade stall, the helicopter did what it was supposed to, except in the wrong direction.

How to fix it: Get rid of the rolling tendency in forward flight. Real helicopter rotor systems have the ability to flap which nulls the rolling moment. Basically, the dyssimetry is there, but the pilot can't tell because the rotor system is doing the fixing on it's own. Retreating blade stall happens when the dyssimetry of lift becomes too great for the flapping hinge to overcome, THEN you get the rolling/pitch up tendency, but it will roll to the LEFT on counter-clockwise turning rotor systems. So get rid of the rolling tendency below VNE, and then, when VNE is exceeded, have the helicopter roll to the LEFT.

Torque effect: Not present? Very limited? I can't tell because the slip ball does not seem to work. In any case, I get almost no feeling of torque in a hover on Expert settings. No left pedal required.

How to fix it: As torque is applied to the rotor system, the helicopter wants to yaw in the opposite direction of the blades rotation. In counter clockwise turning rotor systems, it wants to yaw right, so the pilot needs to add left pedal. I am not seeing this in game, although I saw it in the Community Preview. Keep in mind that as forward airspeed increases, less left pedal is required due to a combination of increased tail rotor efficiency as well as the vertical stabilizer becoming effective.

That's all I currently noticed.

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

Nightstalker has provided some really great feedback over the last couple of months, and - like other real-world pilots - it's fantastic to have their expertise on board.

The same feeling, of course, extends to everyone who's provided feedback - no matter their expertise. While changes aren't integrated as quickly as feedback is given, they never go unheard. Helicopters are wild animals, though. :o

I understand his frustration, and continue welcome his, and other pilots input in the the Take On helicopters project. Maybe next time just RTFM. :D As we mentioned in our Ripten Interview (many thanks to Murray for asking the tough questions), it's difficult, it's not perfect, but there is potential here, and we're trying to unlock this potential to a whole range of simthusiasts, new and old. Hm, not sure that's a word. ;)

Best,

RiE

I was definitely in bad form when I posted that. It was at the end of a hairraising week rigging flight controls an a Chinook helicopter. I haven't gotten to fly a real helo in weeks (no students at the moment). It took 4 hours to download TOH from Sprocket. My internet has been on the fritz and I had the Comcast guy out for the 3rd time in as many months. So when I fired the game up and it pooped I was a little pissed. I probably should have taken a cold shower before posting.

I will try and be more professional from here on out.

My GTX 260 will run the game, barely. No crashes yet, but my fan spools up so fast I worry my computer will explode! I need a new card. I may sneak out tomorrow and pick one up while the wife is out.

My impression so far is as follows:

I have only tried the light helo in free flight. In expert mode, with everything mapped except throttle, I feel like the helicopter wants to float. Full down collective and the helicopter settles at a very very reduced rate from the real thing. Lowering the collective in a real helo gives you a descent rate of 1500-2000 FPM. I am getting maybe 500 FPM in TOH. Also, the stability dynamics seem backwards. By this I mean that, a helicopter fuselage dangles from the rotor system, which is supporting it as it is the part that is actually flying. So imagine holding a pendulum from your hand. As you move your hand, the pendulum responds, this is the kind of motion that should be depicted in a hover. It seems opposite to me, more like trying to balance a pencil on your hand. It wants to fall over, whereas a pendulum wants to dangle directly below you and is trying to find its equilibrium. When you tilt the rotor disk in a helicopter in a hover, you slide in that direction, not roll over, because the airframe wants to stay DOWN. In order to roll the helicopter over, you need a pivot point, like a skid touching the ground, or a rock or a grass patch. It needs to GRAB something in order to give it that rolling moment. You cant just roll the heli over by applying lateral cyclic in the hover, you will just take off in whatever direction you pointed the cyclic until you correct it, or hit something. Not to say it WOULDN'T roll over if you completely rediculously overcontrolled the thing. But it doesn't inherrently WANT to do that.

WHEW! I hope that makes sense.

Regarding the throttle.... I have a full helicopter control set with a twist grip throttle on the collective. Is there any way you could assign an analogue setting for those of us that have the hardware to simulate a roll on/off throttle? This also may be helpful to people who have a HOTAS joystick. Being able to control the throttle is key to starting, shutting down, simulating power failures and dealing with things like governor failures (manually controlling the throttle setting for a given pitch setting). This would definitely make the pilot types happy.

Thanks for being patient with me.

Scott

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

I will plug my 260 in and wait for a new high end card to come out so I will have something for A3. I love me some flying games, but I love to kill me some tangos too!

"BOOM HEADSHOT!!!!"

Thanks for the advice guys.

[Hardware]

So I had started a thread that seems to have been deleted. Considering some of the content, I don't blame BI for deleting the post, so no grudges. Unfortunately, I had posed some questions that I did not get to see the responses for.

It's been identified that my GPU is not capable of handling this program, I got a new computer with a faster processor and a slower GPU than on my previous rig. Current rig: i7 2600 with a GT 530. Old rig had a GTX 260. WIll I see an improvement if I install the GTX 260 in place of my GT 530? I guess I was not paying attention to the 'X' at the end and the Best Buy guy conned me and told me that the GT530 was "MUCH faster" than the GTX 260.

My faster CPU makes games like X-plane and FSX run MUCH better than my old processor, but TOH is very GPU reliant, so I guess I did not notice a decrease in performance until I bought this program.

Is it worth it for me to swap them out? Or should I just go buy a new GPU altogether? I don't know if even my GTX 260 can handle this game.

Thanks in advance.

Scott Swanberg

[Question about Flight Model]

The rolling tendency on a helicopter is due to dissemetry of lift, but it is acounted for by allowing the blades to flap up and down at different points in their rotation, at least until forward velocity exceeds the rotor hubs ability to compensate, at which point you would see a roll on the retreating blade side coupled with a nose up tendency.

In any case, the right roll people are seeing in TOH is not accurate. The blades are counter clockwise rotating, for one, so the retreating side is on the left. If there were going to be any roll present, it would be on that side. Secondly, as stated above, withing the aircrafts authorized operating speed range, the pilot should not notice much change at all because the rotor system is designed to take care of these things on it's own. Just don't exceed your speed redline.

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

Good points made by all. I am aware of the limitations of sim vs. reality, I was simming well before I ever got my ratings. I also know how accurate it CAN be within the limitations of a game. I helped the developer of the Dreamfoil R22 for X-plane test his flight dynamics and provide feedback on systems and behavior for it, and it is arguably one of the most realistic helicopters on a home computer. That doesn't make it perfect. Nothing can match reality.

I also know that this is a game and not a sim. I was not expecting a sim. What I was expecting was a game with some additional realism, which is what they advertised. After months of testing and providing feedback, myself and several other real pilots started to get worried that this game might not live up to it's potential. But maybe it did. Maybe I just cannot experience that because my hardware sucks. I don't think my expectations were unrealistic. I was not hoping for anything they did not advertise.

When I get my hardware figured out, I will give it another go and re-assess.

By the way.... is a GTX260 better than a GT530? I have the former sitting in my OLD computer, I had upgraded the stock GPU. The GT530 came with my new computer. Would I see any gain if I switched them, even if the 260 is still on the low end?

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

-Ziggy-;2046356']I'm sorry if I came off rude' date=' but I find myself quick to defend BIS and the community. :o

considering whats out there and what this game requires, for a single card, [b']I[/b] probably would not go for anything less than a GTX460.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130570

really any card will be better than what you have. then, say goodbye to your input lag and terrible graphics. :cool:

No worries Ziggy, I deserved it. Before I checked back here I knew I should have done some troubleshooting before I posted such a scathing review. I really had no idea my graphics card was that outdated... all the stupid numbers and letters... GT, GX... I thought my 530 was a decent card. And seriously, I have NO issues with other programs. I am not a computer whiz by any means. All this stuff is voodoo to me.

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

-Ziggy-;2046338']yes' date=' he is.

open mouth, insert foot?[/quote']

Yes, indeed I am a real pilot. Not only am I a real helicopter pilot, but I am an instructor as well.

As far as my graphics card goes, Yes, I know I don't have top of the line. But my card runs every other game I own very well, including Arma and Arma 2 with no issues. After looking at the recommended minimum hardware, you are right, what I have does not cut it and is probably causing my problems. So... maybe an apology is in order. I am still not happy that I spent 50 bucks on something I can't use, but if it's my own darn fault for not reading the directions, so be it.

I will try some of the other "tweaks" I am reading about to see if I can get the most of my performance. I also may have a new card purchase in order, though I really don't have the cash...

I was just really really disapointed with what I was seeing, compared to the public beta that I tested extensively, the final version felt nothing like it and I was just shocked, and disappointed.

DWarden, I would give you specifics, but since I don't have the hardware to run this properly, my feedback is basically worthless anyway.

Consider this my official apology for the original post.

[This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements.]

After 5 or so min of gameplay the program crashes to windows.

But even with the 5 minutes I am getting, I am extremely disappointed in just about all aspects of the game, from the abyssimal flight dynamics to the poor graphics running at a horrible rate on my computer (I7 2600 with NVidia GT 530). Seriously, the community preview was better than this garbage. What is going on here?

Can I get my money back? Please? Please?

I would rather fly helos in ArmA and ArmA 2 than this.

Seriously, how can you claim realism? I am a real helicopter pilot with a full helicopter simulator setup (full pedals, collective and cyclic) and I can't fly the stupid thing in expert mode. The control lag makes it almost uncontrollable. Not realistic to a real helicopter AT ALL. And before anyone harps at me about settings, I have messed with all the null zones and sensitivities trying to get it right. And just when I start to really try to get into it, even from a pure gaming perspective, the graphics are so poor, and it eats so much performance, that I cannot enjoy it anyway. And then, on top of that, it keeps crashing to windows.

Seriously disappointed here guys. How did a project with so much promise fall so short?? I really went to bat for BIS early on because I beleived that you would and could pull this off. I thought you would listen to the real pilots and make it at least passably realistic. It seriously looks like you took the ArmA platform and changed it into a strictly helicopter game. No changes to the core elements to make it more flight friendly at all. I really don't know what BIS was shooting for at this point, but this is not what was portrayed to me and many others during the development.

Sincerely, No longer a fan,

Scott Swanberg

[Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots]

Fair enough. I'll briefly hijack this thread again and just ask if you can acknowledge that the ToH team understands there are some differences between real world helicopter dynamics and those in the game? I'm 100% confident the game is going to be a lot of fun to play, but is the current FM pretty close to what we're going to see in the final product or is there still tweaking to be done?

If I may...

Previous questions of this nature have gone unanswered by BIS developers. They have kept things pretty tight as to what they are, and are not doing, but I have been assured that, yes, they are watching, and that they have been paying very strong attention to input from the real world pilots.

Whether or not any of that input is going to show positively in the game is yet to be seen.

In other words, we're just going to have to wait.

[Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots]

It seems that the topic of this thread has changed. I hope that we can get back on track. I started this thread to discuss flight dynamics IRL and in TOH, and hoped to broaden our knowledge as a community. I know that the developers for BIS are very active with their community and that they do take the time to read what we have to say. Let us try to open discussions about different flight characteristics in TOH that may needs some guidance and offer the best solutions we can.

p.s. 'Best feedback and communication from developers award' goes to...a tie between: BIS and Mojang

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

Recommended reading:

Rotorcraft Flying Handbook

FAA-H-8083-21

U.S. Department of Transportation

Federal Aviation Administration

This is a great book for the basics of helicopter flight: For all who are interested

I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread RUBIX. I felt strongly that more needed to be said. We can talk about behavioral issues all day long, but if we are not seeing them fixed, then it's kind of pointless, don't you think? In any case, ocramweb has a point. We are not too far from release, and perhaps BIS has a few aces up their sleeves yet.

For the record, I did not mention anything like realistic ATC comms, airspace, things of that nature. I do not expect any of that as I am well aware this is not a simulation. However, I do think decent flight dynamics is important.

4 in 1, I find your remark to be typical of the "static" I mentioned in my earlier post about pilots doing our best to "keep it real" on this forum (pun intended). At no point do I feel my expectations or suggestions have been unrealistic within the confines of a fun and playable game, nor have I at any point expected "perfection". I think the vast majority of us know that this game will have it's limitations, but we are all hoping for some basics. Decent flight physics, combined with some missions to use them with. One without the other is OK. We already have several examples of that. BOTH would be phenominal.

RUBIX... Once again. Sorry for hijacking your thread. That's enough from me.