nightsta1ker

Right now I am frustratedly trying to upload my latest video to youtube with my dodgy internet connection (I pay for High Speed but I get intermittent garbage, perhaps my settings are not maximized or something. I have already had them come out to check the wires once and they supposedly found and fixed the problem.) When I get some time I will check it out and get back to you.

Hmm... When I scroll my mouse over it I only see two. I will look it over more carefully. Thanks OMAC! Out of curiosity, does closing the throttle shut the engine down?

:cool:

Working on this now. However having difficulty uploading to Youtube due to video length and quality. It keeps timing out on me. As soon as I get it uploaded I will post the link.

There are two controls that are related to rotor speed blade pitch angle (lift) and they are combined and need to be used together. The collective is the lever on the pilots left side. He controls the pitch of all of the blades simultaneously by raising or lowering this lever. The throttle is a twist grip on the collective. The pilot uses this to directly control Engine RPM and also Rotor RPM. However, due to aerodynamic forces such as coning due to lift, induced drag created by lift and coriolis effect that happens to the rotor system when the blades cone, the Rotor RPM fluctuates as the controls are manipulated. Almost all helicopters have a correlator which rolls throttle in the appropriate direction with up and down collective, however, it's not precise and the pilot needs to make small adjustments to keep the RPM in the green. In addition to the correlator, you may also have a governor which controls the RPMs for the pilot, reducing his workload. For the turbine ship that is represented in Take On, the use of the throttle is really quite simple. It is used for the purposes of starting, shutting down, or idling the engine. The Governor takes care of the rest in normal flight. There is no selectable axis for controlling the throttle that I have found, only the collective, which is all you REALLY need. However, it would be nice to be able to properly simulate starting and shutting down the ship. The throttle function in game currently has two positions, full throttle, and throttle idle. In reality there are three basic positions that concern the pilot, Full, Idle and OFF. On start, Fuel is initially off until the starter brings the N1 up to the right speed for start, then fuel is introduced by cracking the throttle to Idle. Then once the start sequence is finished and the engine is running independently the throttle is rolled on to full (or to wherever the governor takes it to give you 100% RRPM). On shutdown, the pilot brings the throttle to Idle for the allotted cool down time (usually 2 minutes) and then closes the throttle, cutting off fuel to the engine, which of course shuts it down. It's SLIGHTLY more complicated than I am describing it, but I am trying to keep it simple so everyone understands the basic concepts. IMHO getting the CONCEPTS right is alot more important than getting all the DETAILS right. Details can come later, but they will not be easy to implement unless the basic concepts are understood. Make sense?

Thanks :rolleyes:. Only I was trying to avoid that. I was under the impression there was a way to plug external sound into my GoPro. ---------- Post added at 06:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 AM ---------- New video is in the process of being saved, then the arduous task of uploading to Youtube. Hopefully I will have it posted before I pass out tonight.

I found it's close enough to being accurate, but there seems to be a few bugs. In a real turbine, you turn the battery switch on, hold the starter, watch the N1 (gas producer) rise to about 13% (this basically means the first set of fans in the engine are turning fast enough to provide the right amount of air and pressure to get a proper ignition) then you introduce fuel by cracking the throttle, If all goes well, the engine lights and you get that nice roar and watch your gauges climb. If temperature limits are not exceeded then the pilot realeases the starter at about 60% N1 and the engine is self sustaining from there. I found in game that holding the starter alone will completely start the engine without the introduction of fuel.

Not very fast or agile. That's a Hughes 269, designed, built, and primarily used for training new pilots. It's a rock-solid, stable and reliable machine. ---------- Post added at 02:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 AM ---------- So here's the deal with today's video, no comms audio. The cable I bought did not interface correctly with my GoPro. I need to do some research to figure out how people are recording their audio with their videos. However, the new vantage point offers much better view of the controls and panel. It was an hour and half long flight, so once I get everything edited the way I want I will upload it and post the link here.

Here is what is on the menu for today, I will be testing my new audio feed cable which goes from the intercom to my GoPro so I can now get radio comms recorded with the video. I will be teaching my friend, who is Private Pilot Helicopter rated on some commercial manuevers and working on his radio communication skills. We will be doing a flight around the Seattle area through some controlled airspace, talking to towers and such, I may throw in some other goodies if time permits. Mostly this is to test my audio feed cable, I have no idea if it will work properly. If time and the situation permit, I will try and point out some basic helicopter behaviors while they happen in flight for the benefit of the viewers.

@LeftSkidLow, Yes, those are Merrells. I have several. As far as the autorotation goes, when I get my CFI (hopefully this month or next) I will be able to do them whenever I want. Until then it's kind of off limits (too much potential for an accident) without an instructor on board. Kind of rediculous, but I need to keep my nose out of trouble. @CarlGustaffa, I have a suction cup mount that I plan on placing between the seats so there is a full view of both pilots and the panel and controls etc. @Dice, I have about 250 hours, 80 of that in airplanes and the rest in helicopters. Got my private ratings before 2003 then joined the Army and crewed on Chinook helicopters for 7 years. Got out and am finishing my ratings (Commercial, CFI, and eventually Instrument). Training required for a Private Pilot's license in the U.S. is a minimum of 40 hours of flight training of which it gets split up into different categories; Dual instructed, solo, cross country, simulated instrument conditions, etc. You must pass a written test and an oral/practical test to earn your license once you meet the basic flight training criteria. You also need a medical certificate granted by an FAA certified doctor. The biggest obstacle is money. I took out a loan for $15,000 (in 2003 dollars, mind you) to get my initial helicopter rating and have since poured another $15-20,000 into it. I'm not rich, but I make it work somehow. Just manage your debt and don't over extend yourself and you should be able to do it. There are loans available if you qualify. Think of it as buying a nice car (or two). @4 IN 1, I work on large turbines every day too, and I must say, the elegance and simplicity of the turbine engine is awesome. However, cost effectiveness leans way towards piston powered ships. R44 approx. $450/hour vs. B206 approx. $1,000/hour. Granted, the B206 can do more than the R44, but you get the idea. If you want to start training, I don't see how you could afford not to get your training done in piston powered aircraft.

Thanks. Weather pending, more tomorrow!

I sure hope you are not yelling at me. I am not exactly for the whole structured forum thing myself. Also, I was a U.S. Soldier, so I get your point there, but my post was in no terms trying to "mold" anyone into doing anything. I was simply trying to weigh some pros and cons. So pardon me. I'm SOOO sorry I offended your sensibilities somehow. ---------- Post added at 05:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 AM ---------- This is not an aerodynamic effect you would see in real life for a helicopter, though you do get this effect in an airplane. The tail rotor's only purpose on a helicopter is to counter torque from the rotor system. The pilot does not need to change pedal input more than a smidge for trim in turns (quite unlike an airplane). As the helicopter gains forward airspeed, the vertical stabilizer on the tail, which is basically a wing turned 90 degrees, starts producing lift with a horizontal vector which also counters the torque induced by the rotor system and alleviates the pilot's need to apply as much left pedal to keep the nose straight. The faster the helicopter goes, the more effective the vertical stabilizer becomes and the less left pedal is required. In forward flight the pilot steers primarily with the cyclic, banking the helicopter, it should stay in trim with minimal (if any) pedal required for trim. I hope this answers your question, and I also hope this winds up being correctly modeled in the final version of the game.

I'm skeptical about how hard you searched for feedback from other real pilots on the forum as there are a handful of us who have been pretty active throughout the forums from the start of the project and our posts can be found throughout. Particularly me; I will be the first to admit that I am very (maybe too) outspoken with my suggestions and constructive criticism. I completely agree with you that the pedal effectiveness is off. It's too weak. With full pedal deflection I am getting a very slow yaw rate. To add to your list of things that can be improved, I would like to add that the amount of left pedal required does not seem to diminish with forward airspeed as it should (the vertical stabilizer becoming effective with increased relative wind). No "flap-back" from transverse flow effect (would be simulated by giving the helicopter a nose up and slight right roll tendency as the aircraft begins to pass through effective translational lift; The pilot needs to "push through" it in order to get the rotor system into "clean" air). Autorotations do not seem possible. Pilot's stick movement animation (in game) is greatly exaggerated. Torquemeter is highly inaccurate (erring on the low side). All of these are small gripes. If they were not included in the final version, no one but us hardcore pilot types would ever even notice. But if they were included they would make the game that much more awesome :cool: Oh, and by the way, welcome to the forums Chris :D

You probably do not have your joysticks configured properly. I found that I needed assign the control axis manually in order to get my controls to work.

There IS a good valid reason why the mods want to keep the number of threads down. Each one generates its own growth of feedback and takes on an entity of its own. All of these responses and posts are comprised of data that is taking up space on a server somewhere that someone is paying for. Also many people are of the opinion that if everything is on one central thread, and if one READS all of the comments posted on that thread before they make their own comments, they might find that someone else has already discussed what they were going to discuss, thus avoiding double posting. However, I feel that human nature is to be lazy, and we all want our little piece of spotlight, so we bypass reading everyone else's posts and create our own anyway. Everyone wants a voice, even if we are screaming the same thing as the last guy. So, people can moderate all they want, but it is only going to generate data wasting conflict because our nature goes against the order imposed by the modders.

If you like piston powered airplanes, think of the torque as manifold on a constant speed prop. In fact, piston powered helicopters have a manifold pressure gauge rather than a torque indicator. :D Also, I assumed that the unrealistic density altitude had something to do with the limitations of the OA world, I just wanted to make sure that they at least TRY and model it correctly in the official game.

after doing some more thorough flying I would like to note that the torque induced yaw does not seem to be dissipating with an increase in forward airspeed as it does in real life. As airspeed increases, the effectiveness of the vertical stabilizer increases and the need for left pedal decreases (the torque effect does not go away, but another feature of the helicopter compensates for it). Also, autorotations seem impossible. Pedal effectiveness/sensitivity is unrealistic. I have my controller set at maximum sensitivity and I cannot do a rapid pedal turn with full deflection. In reality a full kick of the pedals will send you into a wild spin. Also, left pedal should give me a decrease in power while right pedal will give me an increase. The tail rotor is linked to the transmission and when you add thrust you take away power from the main rotor system. If you decrease thrust you are giving it back. Also, I noticed the cyclic control movement animation in game is greatly over-exaggerated. I once took a friend up for their first ride in a helicopter and she noted after the flight was over that she never saw me move the controls the whole time. My movements were so small that to the untrained eye it appeared that I was flying the aircraft by sheer will (not far from the truth). The controls that get the most movement are the pedals and the collective, the cyclic should stay almost stationary. I would say that a realistic animation would show the cyclic rotating through a circle with a radius of 3-5 inches (with full joystick/control deflection). Next I would like to note that the torque indicator is not going up nearly enough. With full up collective the Torque gauge is only reading about 50%. It should be past the red line. Lets assume we're at sea level on a standard day with standard temperature and that the helicopter will be carrying full fuel but no passengers, only the pilot, who weighs an average healthy male weight of 180 lbs or so. In order to hover, most light turbine helicopters under those conditions would be sitting between 50-70% torque depending on the helicopter and it's power capability. Put that same aircraft high in the mountains on a very hot day, and you will be looking at In Ground Effect hover at 80-90% torque if you are in a powerful ship. Cranking up on the collective would quickly put you in the red and your engine will have a meltdown in a matter of seconds. The fact that I am cruising around in the hot desert mountains of Takistan while yanking and banking with power for days does not strike me as being realistic in the least.

Makes sense, that way people are not instantly turned off by the difficulty. Thanks.

Just installed the update. Question: What happened to the Torque Induced Yaw? I now need ZERO left pedal with applied collective. Other than that, it feels MUCH better than the initial release. Still have not had time to play with it for more than a few minutes.

This is a known bug.

Your post is dripping with sarcasm. I am sorry if you took my snobbiness to be disdain. Maybe I am a snob. I apologize if you thought I was talking down to you. However, if you read through the various forum threads posted on this game I would say the "noobs who don't have sticks" and the "purists" are about 50/50, and both are heaping loads of disdain on each other, to the point where it is counterproductive. Personally, I think there is room for all of us. Can't we all just get along? :butbut: There are tons of makes and models, some are crappy but cheap, some are fantastic but very expensive. There may be some happy mediums in there too. Right now I am using a Logitech extreme 3d pro, with saitek pedals but I will soon be using custom built heli controls (full cyclic,collective and pedal combo, very expensive, but hey, I'm a purist).

I was generalizing a bit and not directing those comments strictly at you. Everyone has their interests and expectations. The helicopter behavior battle has been fought on many a forum for many a game. The real pilots, who know all the squirelly tendencies, and fight viciously to have them replicated correctly always get shot down by the average gamer who does not realize that needing to add left pedal IS realistic and not some sort of glitch. The Dodo Simulations 206 for FSX is THE most realistic add on for that game, and probably a close competitor for any other helicopter sim/game out there (in fact, I doubt anything other than Blackshark has done it better), and people were complaining INCESSANTLY that the model was F'd up because they needed left cyclic and pedal to hover, not realizing that is the way it is SUPPOSED to fly. No offense to you or any other gamer types. Just letting you know, they are shooting for realism on this one, and what they have so far (though a little rough around the edges) is realistic.

As a "simmer" I can say that I resent the comment about needing every nut and bolt in the right place. It's already been addressed that every airframe has it's subtle differences. I don't expect a perfect replica of an MD-500 or other aircraft, but I do not feel that there is any reason for them to creat completely fictional models either. However, it is what it is and it's not going to change. BIS have put their foot down on this one. Let's get over it already.

I second that. I have lost my engine many times in ArmA and walked away to fight another day :D

Seems you guys are becoming familiar with the wonderful challenges of helicopter flight. That right yaw tendency that requires left pedal to counter it is called Torque Induced Yaw. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the engine turns the rotor blades counter clockwise, the nose of the helicopter wants to turn clockwise, That's why there is a tail rotor, and as you increase collective, you also need to increase the left pedal to counter the additional torque. As far as the roll goes OMAC, that is called Translating Tendency, and is caused by tail rotor thrust which pushes the helicopter to the right and also adds a rolling moment. Left cyclic is required to compensate for this in a hover and one skid (the left, on counterclockwise turning rotorcraft) is going to touchdown first, then the right. It needs to be carefully done or the helicopter will roll over as you are experiencing. It seems alot of you are trying to do all of this with a keyboard. If you are not able or willing to buy at least a cheap joystick, you are going to have alot of problems with the realistic flight physics. Either turn your settings to easy mode, or get a joystick is my recommendation. Of course, with ALOT of practice, you might actually figure out how to do it. But I wouldn't waste my time. BIS is doing a fantastic job of implementing real helicopter behaviors into their game. Unfortunately real helicopters are not very easy to fly, there are alot of complicated things going on and the two that I mentioned above are very basic and really just scratching the surface. I have several large volume books on the subject that have taken me months to read (then re-read because I flushed half of it). Everyone screams for realism, then they complain when they need to hold left pedal and discover that the helicopter wants to roll over on touchdown! Welcome to reality boys!