Sabbathius

Good post, good feedback. But have you noticed "insanely accurate" AI, especially the vehicles? I haven't noticed this when it comes to infantry, but any vehicle with a machinegun mounted on it in the demo can score a headshot on a prone person from up to 600m. Example, I'm in the grass behind a tree prone at 600 from a jeep, I start shooting at it, the gunner shoots me in the head. I'm crawling through bushes and see some infantry at 500m, I start shooting it, an APC comes out of the town and shoots me in the head. I'm in the gunner seat of an attack chopper, we're did a pass over town and turning for another go, I die, camera zooms in on the T84 tank, and based on the angle it used the machinegun mounted on top of the turret. Don't know the exact distance in this last case, but I do know the tank was on the other end of town, so probably at least 500-700m range. This was in the demo, and it's actually the reason I still haven't bought the full game, if this kind of stuff happens it's not something I enjoy. Were these just freak accidents, or does this sort of uncanny accuracy happen often? This wasn't even on high difficulty setting, but these shots should be impossible to make.

How about my example? I'm in some bushes, prone, next to a tree with just my head sticking out. Approximately 600m away a jeep is moving away and to the side from me, I have my M16 with 4x ACOG scope, and I start shooting it. The gunner on the jeep spins around and shoots me in the face. I die. Now, let me ask you, can you see a man's head at 600m without binoculars or scope, considering he's got a camouflaged helmet on and is laying on the ground among rocks, bushes, trees, etc. If he fires and you see the muzzle flash and smoke, even so at 600m can you see it clearly, without scope or binocs? Not really. A head-size target at 600m will be a dot to you. Next, how do you think your accuracy is affected, when you're shooting a machinegun mounted on the back of a moving jeep? MOVING vehicle. Think you can hit a head-size target at 600m? I doubt 1 in 100 here can. Maybe 1 in 1000 with 100 rounds fired can manage it, though I still doubt it, not at 600m and not from a moving jeep. This isn't detailed AI. This is godmode, cheating AI. This happened on more than one occasion, against jeeps, tanks and APC. The kill camera shows the unit that fired the killing shot. And while I haven't seen AI shoot though walls, I have seen them spot me and shoot me though several bushes or foliage of trees in the way, from where they couldn't have possibly seen me. Godmode cheating AI.

Good writeup, but one of the factors may be distance. I find when I engage infantry from 600 meters or more, they won't even bother shooting back, even if I'm wide open on a piece of rock, they can't "find" me. But from 50m, they will shoot me through the grass no problem. Same for bushes and tree foliage. One time I was prone, and got shot, and when the kill camera moved, I saw a prone infantry about 100m off behind a bush. I moved the camera to his position, and I couldn't see myself. I then flew to my body, and there were two bushes and foliage of a tree in the way. So I couldn't have possibly seen that AI, but he saw me fine. My own experiences indicate that once you engage a group, no matter if you're in grass or not, they will kill spot you and kill you from 300m or less. It's a tossup at 300-600m against infantry, though jeeps, APCs and T84s will still spot me and kill me with obscene accuracy. And at 600m or more the infantry loses the ability to find me and never shoots back, so I can kill a group of 20 using M16 with ACOG sight and they will not even shoot back, just flop down on the ground and wait to get shot, though the jeeps/APCs/tanks still find me just fine and hit me at 600+ meters.

I actually agree with that, they run like chickens with their heads cut off and sometimes stop to look at the flare. When they see your muzzle flash, they engage the area, but not as accurately as in daytime. But during the day they can locate a prone figure next to a tree trunk at 600m and score a headshot off the back of a moving vehicle using a .50 machinegun.

Don't know about realism of armor or helmets, but when in the demo a moving jeep's machinegunner easily shoots me in the face when I'm prone 600m away, I don't think armor is a factor. :eek:

Folks focusing on features and graphical limitations, keep in mind that an average gamer is looking for some fun, to be entertained, not technical details. ArmA2 is great, but what if OFP2 offers the same feel with less pain and less hassles, for example? The sales would certainly reflect that. Suppose 6 months from now I download AA2 demo and OFP2 demo, and play them. In AA2 demo I get stuck looking at the team screen for 10 mins before the match finishes, in OFP2 I get put into observer mode and get to check out the fighting. When I finally get into the game, I get immediately sniped by the jeep machinegunner from 600m while hiding behind a tree with only my eye showing, but in OFP2 the accuracy is not that precise, and I win the match, it's still challenging but doesn't make me want to throw the keyboard at the wall and yell "WTF!" when the APC gunner snipes me in the gunner's seat of an attack chopper doing a tight turn at top speed. This repeats 5 times. And then next day on my way from work I walk into the videogame store. What do you think I'll buy? For an average gamer, the answer will be pretty darn obvious. On a conscious level I realize AA2 is infinitely deeper and far more customizable, if "more" is the right word. But none of it will matter if the other game is simply fun, entertaining, hassle-free, while offering the same FEEL as AA2. An average gamer will not get that far, an average gamer will fire up the demo, and join a match. If that experience is awful in AA2 and in OFP2 this experience is pleasant and entertaining, albeit still challenging, that's the game the average gamer will buy. If they don't enjoy the initial gameplay, they will NOT rush into the editor where AA2 really shines and say "Aaaah, this is cool!", nobody does that. In layman's terms, nothing I've seen so far says that AA2 is a superior GAME to OFP2. It's superior sim, with superior customization potential, but those don't make it a better GAME. All that OFP2 has to do to survive and thrive is to beat AA2 in gameplay aspect of it, even if it comes up short on simulation and customization. Why do you think WoW has survived so long? Because it was superior to other MMOs graphically? Or because of its superior customization potential? No, of course not. It survived because the gameplay was accessible and fun, while in other games it was painful and clunky. If you want to see this in FPS genre, COD series is a good example. It's an old franchise and keeps on going strong because every installment always offers one thing: highly responsive, visceral close quarters FPS combat. If COD suddenly dropped that and went into a sniper simulator where 30 mins of crawling finally culminated in a shot from 1100m and if you missed you'd have to start over, would the sales for this game come anywhere close to the previous installment? No, of course not. Why not? Gameplay would no longer be fun. Sure, it would be fun for some - the few, the proud, the geeky, but it not for mainstream. So I wouldn't celebrate just yet. Not until we've all tried it and saw what it feels like in actual gameplay. Because that, not graphics or technical aspects, are what makes the game live or die.

That has been EXACTLY my experience as well. I'm prone, next to a bole of a tree, with just head and shoulder sticking out and torso and legs behind it. I'm using Grenadier's M16 with M203 attachment and ACOG 4x scope. I see a jeep traveling in 3 o'clock direction (away from me to the upper-right) at 650m, beyond point target maximum effective range for that rifle, but still within area range. I engage the target, aiming very high to compensate for projectile drop, I see my rounds splash at the jeep...after two shots the gunner turns and pegs me in the head with the first shot. Me dead. What is wrong with this picture? A prone figure, wearing camo, face down on the ground in grass next to a tree, at 600m away. Could you spot that without binoculars? Even with muzzle flash, would you see it clearly? Would you see it from the back of a moving jeep, with a mounted machinegun with no real sights to speak of. The experience with the T-84 tank was even worse. I'm sitting in the gunner seat of the attack helicopter, we're banking sharply, and I die, then the camera zooms in on the tank. Considering the distance and the angle the chopper was at, the only way that tank could have shot at it was with the machinegun. Could a machinegunner on one of those snipe a co-pilot in an attack chopper doing a tight turn at high speed? And of course the APC, whatever it's called, has such tight grouping and range that it's not even funny. I'm prone next to a tree again, and I hear a ratatatatat and I'm dead, then the camera spins and I see a perfect half-circle of bullet holes on the tree next to my head, with the other half is on my face. That was from approx 400m while the APC was in motion, the tree blocked it and by the time it came into view I had just enough time to see it before dying. The people I was playing Coop with eventually all agreed that one of us shoots the tank and I shoot the jeep gunner, because that was the only chance we would have. If the APC or jeep were running around loose, they'd snipe people behind trees deep in the treeline with such ludicrous accuracy from such astounding range that the server host actually restarted the match if the AT guy missed his shot, it was pointless to continue. And shooting through grass is definitely there. Same for shooting through bushes. I was in the town being attacked in a Coop scenario, next to a brick wall again with head and hand sticking out, and I was shot in the head by an infantryman at about 200m, which is fine, except he was prone too and shot me through the corona of a tree, two bushes and some grass. I never saw him. I never would have seen him if he set off a flair on his helmet and did a French can-can dance where he stood. Yet he saw me just fine. And before you ask, this was not on highest setting, teammates were marked with green rhombus signs and I could use third person and artificial sights. Overall, I am very impressed with the demo, the game looks absolutely lovely, controls nicely, and in general is quite enjoyable. However, this issue with accuracy on vehicles and technicals, as well as see-through grass and foliage for the AI really makes the game unenjoyable. I'm actually holding off on buying it until I know these two issues have been fixed, even though I absolutely loved the demo.