Turkish

I do like that soon we'll be able to download those yummy British Dessert Rats. If you eat too many of the Desert Rats, you get indigestion from all that sand. Just kidding. If I tried to write something in Danish, they'd think I was retarded.

Hey, all. I've been gone for the past three weeks. I was on vacation for a week, then I went to my 2 weeks of summer training for the National Guard. It sucked. I would have much rather been playing OFP for that time. However, I did find out that my artillery battery is the best battery in 34th Division Artillery, which happens to be the best artillery division in the US Army. So that means that I'm in the best field artillery unit in the Army! That's pretty cool. So I guess I missed the death of the abortion/death penalty topic...I hope I didn't miss anything else cool... Glad to be back.

Ex-Ronin? Â What do you mean? Â I was never Ronin... Aculaud, very nice quote. Â Â During my 2 weeks of Army, I introduced a bunch of my buddies to the movie. Â It helped explain why I'm always trying to use British accents. ...He's my partner. Â It doesn't mean we hold hands or take windy walks. Â What it means is, I try to keep him out of as much trouble as he inflicts on me. Â I give him a hard time. Â It keeps him in check. Â But really, he's like my brother."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 26 2002,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 26 2002,08:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being. Â I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter. Â At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile. Â I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot. Â You can count the tiny toes in the picture. Â The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks. Â All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy. Â The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain). Â They have fingerprints. Â Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints. Do you know what abortions do? Â I mean physically. Â Do you know how abortions work? Â There are two primary methods for aborting babies. Â One is the saline method. Â They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive. Â Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours. Â Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand? Â Or hot oil? Â It's the same thing. Â And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it. Â The other common method is the suction method. Â They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out. Â Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done. Â <span id='postcolor'> You're simply wrong. And it's easy to explain why: First of all, abortions are only done during the first trimester of pregnancy, that is, the first three months. Also, abortions are PREFERABLY done as early as possible, meaning that if you intentionally wait two and a half months before going for it, they might not do an abortion even if it is still legal. So we will limit our discussion to first three months. Like you said a fetus has a fully functioning body at 11 weeks. Actually it has a fully functioning body from 0 weeks on, because a non-functioning body will die. All the organs and nerves are there at 11 weeks. But the size is that of a mere fingernail. That's the problem. You claimed that the nervous system of the baby is complete at 11 weeks. This is totally not so. It's a question of size. The nervous system of a 11 weeks old is like that of an ant. The reason for this is that you cannot fit a more complex nervous system to a being the size of a fingernail, because all eukaryotic cells (the cells of multi-celled organisms) are about the same size. That means that the cells of an ant are the same size as the cells of a human. Thus, the nervous system of a 11 weeks fetus has about the same number of cells as that of an ant, because you cannot FIT more into it (ever wondered why humans are the size they are? This is the answer.) During the further development of the fetus, the cells divide (as do the cells of the heart and so on) and eventually produce a nervous system of humane complexity. This happens way after the first trimester. The fetus can feel pain if an ant can, which I doubt. The saline method of abortion does not "burn" the fetus alive. Saline is a term for 0.9% solution of NaCl. And dude, our body is made mostly of saline, just like the fetus is. Our cellular fluid is saline based. Our blood is saline based. The amniotic fluid that the fetus swims in is saline based. The saline method just flushes the fetus out. What comes to the suction method, well, you just suck out an ant.<span id='postcolor'> Thank you Oligo for that interesting information. I think it illustrates how interest groups bend the truth to fit their purpouses and when you look at it closer you see that the story they are telling couldn't actually be further from the truth.<span id='postcolor'> So what is this? You think I represent some special interest group? Screw that, dude. I have 2 children. I've watched their development from the start. It wasn't a special interest group that told me that a baby in the womb has a complete nervous system at 11 weeks. I learned that in my Health class in school and from my wife's doctor. Oligo, I'd be happy to see your medical credentials or whatever authority you have to sound like such a well-learned scientist. I also think it's funny that you seem to think that abortions are "only done during the first trimester of pregnancy." Now there's some back-and-forth on the partial birth abortions, but you can get an abortion up until you actually give birth. It's just that many doctors won't them that late into the pregnancy. The fetus (Latin for "little one," for those who don't know) is functioning from conception, but it is not fully functioning. Fully fuctioning would mean that the baby has arms, legs, fully developed organs, etc, which it does not at 0 weeks. And as far as the suction method, have you ever seen what the baby looks like after that?

By the way, I'm enjoying this debate. It's really good for me to put into words what I believe, and why I believe them. So thanks, guys, for keeping it interesting. I hope you don't mind my long posts! Turkish

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 25 2002,16:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay Turk you are right in the respect that aborting a child doesnt give them a first chance, let alone a second chance in comparison to say a murderer or rapist. Is a foetus even aware of its existence? Probably as aware of its existance as a sperm cell is ill bet. And hey, sperms are life as much as you might disagree. They have little wiggly tails and they swim, so they cant be dead! I think what it comes down to is sentience. And is a 2 week old growth inside a woman actually sentient? Im not sure on that so maybe someone can clear it up for me. Back to the death penalty however... The Death Penalty clearly does not deter people from murdering, what is its purpose? Hey I know! Instead of one person dying, lets kill another because thats right and good. There really is no reason for the death penalty, no justification at all. Sure if either of us were family of a murder/rape victim, we would want the culprit to die. Painfully probably. But we arent allowed to kill them ourselves because that would be wrong. So it is right to let the government kill them? As I say, the Death Penalty plain does not work. Look at the amount of murders in the US, and then compare it to the amount in the UK for instance. Or most other countries that do not have the death penalty.<span id='postcolor'> KB, You're right, that sperm cells are alive. But they aren't human life. That doesn't happen until it's joined with the egg. Once the sperm and egg join, the resulting union is a multi-celled nucleus that contains all the DNA information necessary, such as sex, hair and eye colour, shoe size, fingerprint pattern, etc. It has human life, whether it's aware of itself or not. And if self-awareness is a prerequisite to keeping your life, I know a lot of college kids who are in BIG trouble j/k. But the whole "I think, therefore I am" mentality doesn't really fly here. Honestly, I can't remember anything before age 2 or 3, and my first memory is being stung in the ear by a bumblebee. A newborn baby has a memory span of a few minutes, and by three months it's probably a week or two, if that. So it's not totally accurate to base it on self-awareness. If you did, you'd have to consider getting rid of plenty of retarded and old people. Now for the DP... I think a big reason that a lot of people don't worry about the death penalty is they know they can cop an insane plea and beat the rap, which is something that I can't stand about this country's legal system. Like this whole thing with Massoussi or whatever his name is. He was going to commit an act of terrorism and mass destruction, and there are actually lawyers who would defend him? What the f**k? How un-American can you get? But that's neither here nor there. Back to the point...KB, don't take this as a slam, but it's precisely the attitude that you're showing now that is the problem with the justice system. People don't personally like the death sentence, so they never use it. And now criminals know that, so they're less likely to think twice about doing it. The people who are in power think "It's not our place to decide whether or not they live or die." You know what? It IS your place. You, whether you're the judge, the jury, or even the cop in some cases, you have the power and authority to make that call. Whether you believe it or not, God has given you that authority with the understanding that you will use it. You'll remember I said my wife was raped when she was a teenager. I burn with anger every time I think about it. But it is not my place to kill the guy in revenge, as much as I'd love to put two in the back of his head. God says in Deuteronomy 32:35, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them." (Just so you know, I quote the whole verse, even if it doesn't all apply, because I don't want people saying that I take things out of context.) Paul also writes in Romans 12:19, "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord." Now, that applies to us as individual citizens. In and of ourselves, we do not represent the government, or the justice department. So we don't have the authority to decide who lives or dies (now, if you come into my house with intent to harm me and mine, you ain't walkin' out). But the governing authorities have been put in place by God, and we are expected to follow the rules, whether we like them or not, or pay the consequences, whether we like them or not. Let's do what you suggest and compare the number of murders in the US as compared to the UK. The first thing we need to notice is that the US is home to 300 Million people, and the UK has about 60 Million. So we're comparing two countries, one of which is a fifth the size of the other (population-wise). So let's look at violent crime, or what the Bureau of Justice Statistics calls "violent victimization." According to a 2001 study by the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS, which is put out by the BJS), from 1999 to 2000 violent victimization in the US fell 15%. According to the official UK statistics website, violent crime in England rose 4%. There are also other factors to consider, like the fact that the US allows its citizens to own guns, and many states allow concealed carry of a firearm (with a permit of course), or at least open carry (firearm in plain view in its holster), and the UK doesn't even let skeet shooters keep their weapons in their own home. You can further mince things if you'd like. You ask that, if we aren't allowed to exact revenge in and of our own accord, "is it right to let the government kill them?" Well, since that's in such scrutiny at this moment, let's expand the scope to the military. Now some of you may say "But Turk, the military is different. That's what you're supposed to do, is kill the enemy." Even so, you've doubled back on yourself. So you're saying that it's wrong to let the government kill a person who takes away the rights of people to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But you're saying it's acceptable to send our troops to the mountains of Afghanistan to kill people who took away the rights of people to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So now we're into another hot topic: Relativism (ie., what's right for me is wrong for you)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 25 2002,16:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And as far as your comment about dying in the mother's womb or in poverty on the streets, at least the kid has a chance in the streets. Â If you abort the baby, you're not even giving it a chance. Â How right is that?<span id='postcolor'> I cant remember what your stance was on the death penalty but ill chuck this in anyway. You say having an abortion isnt giving the baby a chance, correct? Or at least in so many words. Well how about sentencing people to death prevents them from having a second chance. Everyone deserves a second chance right?<span id='postcolor'> I am pro-DP. You have to remember...in America at least, you don't get the DP for having too many DUIs or for embezzling millions of dollars from your Fortune 500 company. The people on Death Row (the guilty ones ) are there for serious offenses, usually murder. But they don't send one guy to the chair for one murder, and if they do, there's a good reason for their decision. Heck, Timothy McVeigh was there for killing 168 people, many of them children, at the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Do you think he should get a second chance? The families that lost loved ones to the murderers...do they get a second chance? No. So why should murderers get a second chance? I'm not saying every murderer deserves the chair, but the murderers who are waiting on Death Row are there because they have been deemed "unworthy of a second chance" by the authorities. I'm going to bring in a little religion here, so sorry if you don't like it. God is a God if second chances. He forgives. The Bible says that when God forgives you, he puts your sin as far away as the east is from the west. He completely forgets what you've done. But that doesn't mean that you are free from the consequences of your actions. And it's unfortunate if you murder someone in a state that has the death penalty, but you shouldn't murder in the first place. That may sound contrived, but it's actually pretty simple. And as far as second chances go, abortion kills a baby who has no choice. It's different than a convict, who is in prison because of a conscious choice they made. It's not like someone made them murder. Everyone has a choice, except in the case of infants and kids (little ones). You can choose to pull the trigger or not to pull. You can choose to rape a girl or not to rape her. You can choose whether you want to commit suicide or not to do so. But unborn babies are not afforded that choice. Therein lies the wrong in it. You see what I'm saying?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ July 25 2002,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We live in the 21th Century, not in the 17th. The bible is old, its too old for the civilisation now. It have been once before, but then it was updated, now we shall live by the rules of our community, our laws. The bible have teached us alot, but it cannot be lived by, and it is no more than wisdom written into a book to help people live their lives and remain law and order in a community. It created what was the first real civilisation, but it is outdated... and its been that for long now. Now we dont need any book or any religion to live by. We need to believe in ourselves, we are indivisuals with our own rights, and we can succeed, the book and priests are replaced by parents, school and its teachers, It is replaced by the persons we live amongs. Religion is over, we have our own religion and its what our ancestors have been fought for when all their money were taked from the priests a long time ago. This doesnt only apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, believe in yourself, not a god. God isnt their, we are our own master, we dont have to live under pressure or sacrifice our valuest. Most wars are caused by religion nowadays, it may seem right, but it isnt. If we dont stop believing we never will, dont u see it??! Some "believers" are looking down to people with other or none believers, non believers are looking down to believers. Believeing in minorities is the cause of hate, and hate isnt to be justified in any cause. We saw this happen when Adolf Hitler looked down to Jews and other minorities. It is cruelness and coldness, we saw it when Ali and his friends flew into the twin towers, cruel. This is caused by religion. It might or might not be your religion, but it is still the cause of it. There is no god, no controller, no ruler except ourself. If we do not stop believing this we will stop functioning in a short period of time. /Edit (somehow it erased the last part of my post) The world is getting smaller for each day, and we need to find alternatives to produce food, and find shelter for the growing population. Our technology is incriesing as well, but religion will put an end to this. We need to support what our ethics are, not the religion we think exists. Mother Earth is also developping, and its fruits are getting more and more evolved, but it is doing it too slow for us. We are simply to fast for the earth, and we either have to slow down, or take it into our own hands. This means birthcontroll or genetherapy. Many religions are against this.... And they are against birth controll as well.... Religion will be the cause of our death... And this is only 1 example of it. Religion was once, and it has passed. It was good to bring people together and live in peace, but it is over, the world is too small and its people are too large and developped. Im not taking any statement in gene therapy or birthcontrol here, but it is depressing to see people being somehow brainwashed that they limit their own freedom which is exactly what our civilisation is based upon the day today. Welive now, not 400 years ago. LIVE!<span id='postcolor'> The Bible has been the same since it was written. It is a historically accurate book and contains lessons and life applications which shed much light on the issues of today. I have to go home soon, where I will give you a more full reply. But for now, I leave you with one point. The current war on terrorism is no doubt fueled by religion. The Israeli conflict going on now is about religion. You can say what you want about what's going on or what caused it, but it's about religion, and it goes back thousands of years. But let's look at some of the major wars of the past while: Desert Storm: It was about oil. Let's not kid ourselves. Yes, we helped Kuwait, but it was ultimately about oil. Afghanistan War (soviet invasion): Not sure... Iran/Iraq War: probably about religion, but they're the same religion... Vietnam: Stopping the spread of communism into South Vietnam. Korea: Stopping the spread of communism into South Korea WW2: Stopping Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan from global domination WW1: Stopping Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary from taking over Europe Bolsheviek (sp?) Revolution: Starting communism in Russia Russo-Japanese War: Not sure, I think it was over Eastern Russia, Mongolia, etc. Boxer Rebellion: China wanted Brits out of China. These are just a few. But you will note that most of these are not religion-based conflicts. Like I said, I will comment on this more fully when I get home. But one last thing: Espectro, I'm sorry if Christians, with whom I align myself, have given you reason to not believe in God. That's unfortunate, and it saddens me everytime I hear of something like that happening. I'll try really hard not to sound condescending when we discuss things. Fair 'nuff? Turk

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ July 25 2002,14:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi, this may've moved on but i thought i'd give my opinion on these things: Abortion - this shouldn't be frowned upon, yes, people may think it's murder, but i'm pretty sure if these god squad people were living in shitty houses with no money and stuff, they'd want an abortion if they couldn't support it. Its a choice between two 'deaths' for the baby - Dying in his mothers womb (although wether its ''living'' in this state is debatable), or dying in poverty with drugs lying about the place with no food, clothing and parents who wanted to get rid of him/her, but couldn't because some religious humanitarians have to invade and control everyone elses lives for them simply because their false gods don't believe in abortion. Some people don't understand that babies can ruin peoples lives, they just say ''who cares if you have to support 15 kids by working in a sweatshop where you're raped and beaten everyday, you had... sex... without protection!! you're going straight to hell, this is your punishment before then''. Of course, they don't give a shit about the baby, they don't care they'll have to live in squaler, all they care about is the person having the baby. Maybe they can then ruin their lives furthur afterwards by nicking off with their babies because they can't be supported, and then they shove them in a nunery so they can be assimilated into their religion so they can exploit a few more people for money and needless worship. Death Penalty - It isn't really a punishment, i'd rather have serial killer types spend the rest of their lives in a shitty prison with a 9 foot tall homo called bubba. Thats punishment, simply killing them is the easy way out really, they won't reform, they'll happily go out and slaughter people, but why kill them? let them suffer the unpleasantness of a dark, horrible prison cell, the company of 20 hardcore inmqates who hate serial killers, and of course regular unofficial beatings from the guards.<span id='postcolor'> Ruud, I could kind of see your point of view if that were the case in every abortion issue, but it isn't. That's great that you sympathize with the women who are unfortunate enough to always hook up with deadbeat sleaze-ball men, but it gets to the point where you have to say, "Okay, now you have 4 kids that you don't want from 4 guys that you haven't seen since. Haven't you learned anything?" You cannot take blame from the mother, and that is regardless of where she lives. You talk about the moms that work in sweatshops to support their 15 kids while living in a crack neighborhood with pimps and drunks and druggies. But in many cases, in this country at least, the mom doesn't work to support her family. She and/or the dad just sit at home and collect welfare. And you know who pays for that? Tax paying citizens like me. And when that starts to happen, I start to lose sympathy. I work my ass off for my wife and my two kids, and I don't get paid a whole lot. We live by the penny, and money is always tight. My wife even works a part time job to help out. So what I don't get is this...in America, why do I have to work my ass off to provide for my family (which I do with the utmost amount of joy), AND provide for the 15 children of some woman who is too careless to keep her legs shut? When you start a sexual relationship with someone, you'd better be prepared that you could get pregnant. It's like playing with a loaded gun and being surprised when you shoot yourself in the foot. When you have sex, it's safe to assume that you know that you could get pregnant, whether you're aware of it or not. I mean, it's not like it's a big secret that that's how babies are made. And as far as your comment about dying in the mother's womb or in poverty on the streets, at least the kid has a chance in the streets. If you abort the baby, you're not even giving it a chance. How right is that?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,14:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,11<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ July 25 2002,12<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll chip my two cents worth in. a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong. the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse. so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.) about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days. about his death: it happened as it was prophecied. just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact. or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22: it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.) God is real, guys.<span id='postcolor'> Oh no not again...<span id='postcolor'> Oh, so you can post your point of view, but people who believe in God can't? Â Sorry, I didn't know it was that kind of debate...<span id='postcolor'> I love how you put words in my mouth, you are truley a great debater. Last time I checked this was a discussion on "abortion and the death penalty" not the existance of god. Â We've already had 2 of those.<span id='postcolor'> I didn't put words in your mouth. I just didn't appreciate how you made it seem that the opinion of people who have a religious base for their beliefs isn't as valid as those who don't. For many of us, you can't debate abortion or the death penalty without involving God. Sorry if you think we're beating a dead horse.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,14:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either. Â Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'> You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'> I just went back and re-read the topic and found I'd missed this. So are you implying that the medical professionals (of which I'm guessing you are not) who have stated that life begins at conception don't have brains? Not trying to be a dick, I'm just asking...<span id='postcolor'> Those people are in tiny minorites within the medical/scientific communities.<span id='postcolor'> In England perhaps. But they are NOT a minority over here. I'm not saying they're a vast majority here, because I don't have exact figures and I'm not going to throw an unsubstantiated figure out there. But every doctor I've talked to, whether they're OBGYN, or psychiatry, or podiatry, or general practice, agree that life begins at conception. Here are some quotes I've found from various medical professionals: "When the sperm and egg fuse, the newly-formed cell has conferred upon it the degree of Homo Sapiens, with all the rights and privileges pertaining." (Note, "Rights and Privileges.") Peter Amenta, Ph.D. Professor of Embryology, Hahnemann Medical School. "I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at conception. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence, from conception to adulthood, and any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes the termination of a human life." Dr. A.M. Bongioanni, professor of obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania. "After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception." Dr. Jerome Lejeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes, Paris. He discovered the Down syndrome chromosome, which my brother has. "It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School. "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic. There is also this article to check out: http://www.mdn.org/1995/STORIES/ABORCASE.HTM This article talks about the 1995 ruling by the Missouri State Supreme Court that life does begin at conception. This is something I found on www.prolifeinfo.org. Sorry, but some of these quotes are repeats: In 1981 (April 23-24) a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on the very question before us here: When does human life begin? Appearing to speak on behalf of the scientific community was a group of internationally-known geneticists and biologists who had the same story to tell, namely, that human life begins at conception - and they told their story with a profound absence of opposing testimony. Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at conception. * "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune told the lawmakers: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence." * Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, added: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." * Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception." * Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being." * Dr. Richard V. Jaynes: "To say that the beginning of human life cannot be determined scientifically is utterly ridiculous." * Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the "Father of In Vitro Fertilization" notes, "Conception confers life and makes that life one of a kind." And on the Supreme Court ruling _Roe v. Wade_, "To deny a truth [about when life begins] should not be made a basis for legalizing abortion." At this point, I'm gathering some more sources for you. I'll post them when I have them. Turk

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ July 25 2002,08:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't cry at spr at all, in fact, i found it pretty funny most of the time (the beach landing)<span id='postcolor'> Yeah, man. There's nothing like a little humor at the expense of a guy getting his guts spilled all over the sand.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ July 25 2002,04:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you live in america I recomend watching the history channel, and try to look out for a program called "letters home" or something like that. its about letters from ww2, alot of men didnt make it and the letters are really sad. also when men are talking about how they experianced the war and thier personal exerpiances. like an old russian man was about 17 and he was in stalingrad and a german poped out in front of him and he just emptyed the whole clip into him and it changed him forever. it really hits me when they start crying too. Â <span id='postcolor'> I have the book of that. Â It's called "War Letters." Â It's utterly fascinating, and friggin sad! Â Especially to see how uneducated a lot of these guys were. I also really cried at the end of "The Green Mile." Of course, I almost cried when I saw "The Empire Strikes Back" for the first time, and they put Han in the carbon-freezing chamber.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either. Â Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'> You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'> I just went back and re-read the topic and found I'd missed this. So are you implying that the medical professionals (of which I'm guessing you are not) who have stated that life begins at conception don't have brains? Not trying to be a dick, I'm just asking...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 25 2002,12:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Turkish, Try these for starters. Â And here are some of the worst...cases of police/prosecutorial misconduct. The governor of Illinois, a pro death penaty advocate, has suspended all executions in that state becuase he cant, in good faith, say that the system is not sending innocent people to death. That's got to say something...<span id='postcolor'> Warin, thanks for the links. I just briefly glanced at them, because I have some other things to do, but I'll take a look at them when I get home, and I'll comment on them tonight, probably. But I didn't want you to think that I was blowing you off. I'll just say now that there's two sides to every story. We had a case here where a cop beat up a black guy and got suspended. He was threatened by the ACLU, and the NAACP, and all the civil rights organizations, then they found out that this "victim" had a history of violence and was prone to starting fights. So that proved that, like I just said, there's two sides to every story. But again, I want to check out those links. Thanks!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 25 2002,11:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you call that allready a human being then I guess a girl kills one per month no? (you know, the few days during a month when they freak for no reason) So let me say, they start at 14, they finish around 65, that makes 51years times 12 months....urghhh all women are murderes. But wait, if a stem cell allready is a human being then a sperm must be too. How many of those do we produce per day? Oh my god! Â <span id='postcolor'> Okay, not to sound mean, but you didn't even think that through before you posted, did you? An egg is just an egg until it is joined by a sperm cell. And vice versa. By your logic, guys kill millions every time they jerk off. It's like JB Weld. For those that don't know, JB Weld is like superglue. It comes in 2 tubes (a hardener and a bonding agent). One without the other is useless. But when you mix the two compounds together, you get this cement-like glue.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,19:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am a Christian, as an act of compassion I support abortion in instances where it will prevent suffering, no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception.<span id='postcolor'> No one is coming out and saying "Abortion for the hell of it is okay by me." But by saying that it's a woman's choice, you are saying that it's okay. Â You're just not making a direct statement.<span id='postcolor'> Can you clarify what this means? I support abortion.<span id='postcolor'> I'd be happy to. You said earlier that, while you support it if it will prevent suffering, "no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception." Correct? Stop me if I'm wrong. Now, the common viewpoint I've seen here is that, while most people here don't support abortion personally, they DO support the woman's right to choose for herself. Correct? Again, stop me if I'm wrong. So continuing in that line of thinking, these people say they support a woman's right to choose whether or not she aborts the pregnancy. But by saying you support her right to choose, along with that goes the implication that you support her right to choose regardless of her reason for wanting it in the first place. You see? So by saying you don't personally like it but it's the woman's right to choose, you're saying that you support her right to choose over the baby's right to life, thereby aligning yourself and your opinion with those who say "Yeah, I support abortion for whatever reason." As much as it sucks, it's one of those situations where you're on one side or the other.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus healed the Roman's ear in the Garden of Gethsemony, he is against violence. He brings the New Covenant. This is the basis of Christianity! If we humans kill it must be for cause, not out of anger or hate.<span id='postcolor'> I pretty much agree with you. Â Yes, he healed the dude's ear (of course, the guy was also unarmed...Peter just happened to take a whack at him). Â But he also drove the merchants out of the temple by flipping over their tables and stuff (people forget that he was a carpenter by trade, so Jesus was probably pretty built), because he was angered at them defiling the Holy place. Â But he did not sin in his anger, so it wasn't wrong. But you're right. Â If we kill, it cannot be out of anger or hatred, because then it becomes murder. Â That's why I support the death penalty, because it's not out of anger or hatred. Â It's a just punishment for deserving crimes. BTW, could you please site your references for your claim that life does not start at conception?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am a Christian, as an act of compassion I support abortion in instances where it will prevent suffering, no-one suggests it is an alternative to contraception.<span id='postcolor'> No one is coming out and saying "Abortion for the hell of it is okay by me." But by saying that it's a woman's choice, you are saying that it's okay. You're just not making a direct statement.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,11:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ July 25 2002,121)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll chip my two cents worth in. a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong. the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse. so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.) about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days. about his death: it happened as it was prophecied. just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact. or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22: it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.) God is real, guys.<span id='postcolor'> Oh no not again...<span id='postcolor'> Oh, so you can post your point of view, but people who believe in God can't? Sorry, I didn't know it was that kind of debate...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,04:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,05:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'> Actually, read Exodus; you can be killed for plenty of crimes. The prescribed method is stoning.<span id='postcolor'> That's the old testament, yes, but not the new. OT: An eye for an eye NT: Turn the other cheek I would go with the new one since it was most recently updated <span id='postcolor'> Denoir, I really hope you don't take this as me picking on you. It's not my intention at all. You just have the best posts on which I can base my opinions on these two matters. First, let me address your exchange here. The whole "turn the other cheek" bit has been taken out of context. Yes, in Matthew 5:38-39, Jesus says "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." He's talking to regular Joes here. But before that, in Matthew 5:17, Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them." The Law refers to the Ten Commandments, the basis of Jewish law. He goes on to say in verses 18 and 19, "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." So what the Jesus is saying is that he isn't changing the law. He's clarifying it. See, at that point in time, the Jewish religious leaders were pretty corrupt. They basically watered down God's original law so that they were the only ones who were following it. Jesus saw this, and saw that the Pharisees (said religious leaders) were obeying the laws on the outside, but not in their hearts. So Jesus, knowing that an inner condition will eventually lead to an outer response, stepped up and said, "Hey, you can't just follow the laws on the outside. You need to conform your inner attitude to follow them too." That's why he says that you're not even supposed to be angry with another person (angry in this case meaning angry enough to actually commit murder), and if you are, you've committed the sin in your heart, which displeases God just as much as the actual action. I just wanted to clarify that. The Death Penalty: Now with that I'll say this: Jesus is not saying that the death penalty is wrong. He's talking about individuals, regular Joes like you and me. A few books over, in the Apostle Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome, Paul talks about the law, and obeying the authorities. In Romans 13:1-2, he says "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves." So basically, the Bible says "Hey, if you disobey the authorities, you will pay the penalty. Whether it's a speeding ticket or the gas chamber, that's for them to decide. But God has placed these people in authority, so you need to abide by the law." Everyone knows the laws here, or wherever they live. If you don't, find out. Ignorance is not an excuse to do wrong. No body here commits a crime like murder or rape without knowing what is potentially instore for them. So yes, the Bible DOES say "Turn the other cheek." It says that to you and me as regular, non-governing people. But to us regular people it also says "Obey the authorities, or you will be punished." So it's really very simple. If you don't like the death penalty, don't break the law. Some of you may say, "But Turk, I don't believe in God or the Bible. That doesn't apply to me." Okay, let's take God and the Bible out of the equasion altogether. The law is still the law. If you don't want to get in trouble, don't break the law. Seriously, countries usually reserve the death penalty for people who commit murder, serial rape, things like that. Now, regarding immoral governments, such as Nazi Germany, or the Stalinist era Russia, or Commie China...I think those governments were excluded from God's "list of approved governments" because they murdered innocent people. They are totalitarianist governments that slander the name of God and punish people for thinking otherwise. I don't think they count. But countries like Sweden, and the UK, and America, and other similar countries...countries with normal, moral governments (as moral as a government can be), we as citizens of those countries need to obey the authorities that God has placed over us. And whether the punishment is community service or death is immaterial. The point is, you need to obey the laws. And if you obey the laws, you don't need to worry about the death penalty. Lets face it, the people who are sitting on death row today know why they got there. Sure, governments make mistakes. You would too, if you were in charge of 300 Million people or more. But the US is very careful when it comes to criminals and punishments. I know, we've all seen "The Fugitive," where he goes to death row...but that's a movie. If you have specific, documented cases where a person has been sent to death row unjustly, I'd like to see it. That's my stance. I am now prepared to get flamed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 25 2002,05:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway, screw the bible, I believe in god but damm dont take the bible too seriously. Maybe you should read some Albert Schweitzer, he was the first one to present his echatological interpretation of the bible proofing that Jesus was in fact wrong about his own death. This thesis is well accepted by scientist and the curch could not counterproof it yet, and they invested a lot.<span id='postcolor'> I would like to see your sources for this information.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,04:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Abortion is not a 'little baby being murdered' it is a lump of cellular jelly which is terminated, not a human. Whether or not we have the right to terminate it is another matter.<span id='postcolor'> See my above post please. A human fetus is not a "lump of jelly," and that has been medically proven.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 24 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lol. What a surprise. ´ My views: Abortion - a woman's right, a fetus is not a human being Death penalty  - illogical and you risk killing innocent persons. ... and those here who know me and are still surprised that those are my views should have their brians examined Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'> You guys post all the fun topics when I'm in bed and asleep, and I can't even reply to them until they're 4 pages long! Actually, Denoir, the Bible says "Thou shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13) There is a difference between kill and murder. Kill is defined by the Merriam Webster College Dictionary as "to deprive of life." Murder, in turn, is defined as "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought." It goes on to say that "KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner <killed in an accident> <frost killed the plants>," and that "MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>." So let's not confuse murder and kill. Abortion: Sure, in this country it's a woman's right, or as I like to say, her "legal alternative option." But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being. I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter. At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile. I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot. You can count the tiny toes in the picture. The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks. All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy. The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain). They have fingerprints. Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints. When my kids were born, I spent hours while my wife slept in our hospital room just staring at these beautiful little people. I was amazed that they have tiny fingernails, and fingerprints, and these tiny little feet. I've witnessed two live births, and each one is a total miracle. It's juicy, and stinky, and it's hell, because you can go 2 days without sleep and food. But it's the most beautiful experience you'll ever have, to see YOUR child being born. You just try to put into words the feeling you get when you first hold your new son or daughter in your arms. You can't. You will never understand what that's like until you experience it for yourself. Life seems so precious and fragile then. It's a shame that so many people take it for granted. Do you know what abortions do? I mean physically. Do you know how abortions work? There are two primary methods for aborting babies. One is the saline method. They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive. Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours. Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand? Or hot oil? It's the same thing. And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it. The other common method is the suction method. They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out. Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done. I've seen pictures of this. It is something that, if you see it, you will never forget it. I guaran-fricking-tee that. Sure. Abortion is the choice of the mother. But abortion for convenience is wrong. It is morally wrong. The only situation where I can see it being at all conceivable is if the mother is advised by the doctor in the interest of saving her life (in the case of a tubal pregnancy, for example). But even then, it's like, do you want to abort the baby and live, or do you want to risk your life and try to carry this baby to full-term? I know my wife would want to risk it. I'd hate the thought of losing her, more so than the thought of losing one of my kids. But that's how we feel about it. But every other abortion has no good explanation. Now, you may say "But Turk, what if the mother is raped, or in the case of incest?" Here's what I say. That sucks. My wife was raped, and I can't tell you how much I'd love to find the guy that did it and skin him alive with a sheet of sandpaper. But two wrongs don't make a right. If you're going to quote the Bible in the whole "Thou shalt not kill" (even though that's a misquote), then you have to allow it to be applied here too. Deuteronomy 24:16 says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." Also, Ezekiel 18:20 says that "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." So basically, why should an innocent human baby die because they guy that created him is a vile person? Yeah, I don't think the mother should suffer either, but there are other ways to alleviate the suffering BESIDES abortion. I'll stop here and move on to the next topic: The Death Penalty. (Just to warn you...there will probably be a few posts between this and my Death Penalty one.)

So you kind of want to be The Road Warrior? Or the Postman?