subs17
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Posts posted by subs17
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IF ARMA HAD A PERFECT HELICOPTER SIMULATION:1. Player climbs into Kiowa.
2. Player clicks on the battery and fuel. Hits the starter.
3. Engine explodes.
4. Player gets out and climbs into next Kiowa on the flight line.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until player figures out he's doing something wrong.
6. Player reads flight manual.
7. Not understanding what the words "hot start" mean, player attempts to start engine again.
8. Engine whirrs a little, then explodes.
9. Feeling discouraged, player hops into a nearby trabant to grab some fast food.
10. Player finds out he has destroyed $20mil in turbine engines, is unable to afford cheeseburger and fries, opts for two salt packets and a bullion cube.
I guess the moral of the story is: be careful what you wish for. Helicopters are VERY complex machines. Trying to figure one out is not "video-game fun". If BIS put in a complete aircraft simulation, people would be complaining it's too hard.
How about this for a startup sequence.
http://www.thebattlesim.com/index.p....lang=en
Try the startup video and the Abris/WCS.
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PSYeah, the Tornado looks fine.
And since it is a two seater in real life it will probably be one in this incarnation.
I wonder about the workload of the WSO though.
Hell cool anyway.
Yes it will be a two seater.
The WSO workload will be fairly low but never the less essential to use LGB's
More info here: RKSL Studios website
As i said before, it would be good if the engine could be adapted to support some variable that we could use to define the yaw rate and speed at which you lose authority.
Is it possible to have an optical view with zoom for the WSO and are you guys using a similar mod to the one in OFP where a soldier could paint a target for aircraft to drop LGBs on? How would you go about implementing A/A radar for the F3? That Tornado looks excellent BTW.
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Thre is no doubt that the implementition of the loss on rudder authority is plain wrong in current ArmA.It seems they mistok kilometers per hour with knots.
That would mean the increasing loss of of yaw authority would beginn above 180km/h not at 100km/h with helicopters...and not under 450km/h with fixed wings.
That makes sense although the fixed wing FM is really quite bad(worse than acecombats FM if you could call it one). I think not only the rudder but roll rate, acceleration and rate of climb
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Speaking of aircraft check out this video a new 3d model for Arma a Tornado.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U4a0H1df8TQ
I think the animation for this aircraft looks bloody good I wonder if its a 2 seater online?
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In capitals this time ( forgive me mods):
THE FCS DOES NOT AUTOMATE RUDDER INPUT: IT AUTOMATICALY REACTS TO CHANGES MADE TO THE OTHER INPUT DEVICES.
Another example to show you what I am talking about, just answer the question:
Can the F-16 make a barrel role? Yes/No?
Of course it can and yes the rudder can be used but as I stated its rarely used. Including dogfights you will see why when you check the above link. I agree with the idea of having separate FMs for each aircraft but the rudder depends on the aircraft type and how its used IRL.
I seem to lack the brainpower to explain to you why your statement is wrong.
Rudder was used in BFM from the Fokker E.III to the F/A-22 and it will be used until FBL systems can automaticaly manouvre into lead positions.
At that time there won't be a pilot in the cockpit anyway.
Nevermind mate...gone off topic for to long...
No rudders are generally only used in a dogfight in the slow speed. Generally the pilots try to keep the energy rather than losing it as the slower you are(or faster) turing less tight than what can be acheived whilst turning at the corners speed 330-440kts. By taking the fight to slow speed against a Mig29 or SU27 you are essentially playing the fight at their advantage. If you read the USAF tactics manual you will have a better understanding of what the immediate drills are for F-16 pilots. I'm not saying not to model rudder or flight models correctly what I'm saying is the F-16 pilot rarely uses them. As for the A-10 it may well use the rudder more although I wonder myself so next time I see an A-10 pilot I'll have to ask unless there is any here?
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Hahah. <3.Game design must of course be done with attention to the audience and the context that creates. It would be unreasonable to expect an F-16 pilot in ArmA to avoid venting Hydrazine vapors from the APU since the user is not a jet pilot but a gamer. However it is not unreasonable for the game to model the impossibility of a helicopter flying upside down.
The yaw authority of aircraft is well within the grasp of gamer pilots while entering all the IFF codes for the FAC Kiowa's laser designator is probably not. Not only is it within their ability to understand and adapt to, it's actually easier and more intuitive to fly.
There are of course gray zones between "reality for reality's sake uber unnecessarily complex sim" stuff and "arcade" but yaw authority is not one of them.
Complexity can be scalable so arcade on some servers and more complex on others. I think the addition of an MFD with a slewable TDC which you can zoom, ground stabilise, lock and use TI would be cool and closer to the real deal with minimum effort than going the whole hog with a fully clickable 3d 6dof pit like Black Shark. Also a laser range finder would be good as well.
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In capitals this time ( forgive me mods):
THE FCS DOES NOT AUTOMATE RUDDER INPUT: IT AUTOMATICALY REACTS TO CHANGES MADE TO THE OTHER INPUT DEVICES.
Another example to show you what I am talking about, just answer the question:
Can the F-16 make a barrel role? Yes/No?
Of course it can and yes the rudder can be used but as I stated its rarely used. Including dogfights you will see why when you check the above link. I agree with the idea of having separate FMs for each aircraft but the rudder depends on the aircraft type and how its used IRL.
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I don't see how you can say that rudder is rarely used in high speed aircraft.Rudder input is just as common as it was back in the day of WW2.
You cannot make coordinated turns without rudder input - and FBW doesn't controll rudder for you.
You will have to use constant rudder adjustments in aircombat if you want to fly energy efficient.
Trim is used to keep the aircraft level and straight in flight.
Just because modern aircraft have automated trim doensn't mean that rudder is rarely used.
And speed of the airflow is completely irrelevant to rudder effectivness as an aerodynamic term.
It affects the needed input force on the controlls.
What we have now in ArmA is simply unrealistic.
Rudder changes the direction of movement - period.
The Fly by Wire FLCS does all that for you, can still use rudder though in situations such as landing in a crosswind etc. Try asking here
As I mentioned the A-10 still uses rudder in certain situations but in most F-16 sims its rarely used.
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Quote[/b] ]You cannot make coordinated turns without rudder input - and FBW doesn't controll rudder for you.Doesn't FLCS do this in modern jets?
Yes it does In Real Life
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Rudder is used in fixed wing aircraft to coordinate turns as if you turn without using them the aircraft is actually slipping sideways. The exception to this though is fast moving aircraft such as the F-16 which hardly use rudder at all although they do use trim as the fly by wire system takes care of it.of course - that's usually what the rudder is most prominently used for - to keep the aircraft in balance, however, it doesn't mean you cannot turn using just the rudders.
have a look at the "Rudder Effect" vid link i posted before - it's actually from an F-16 simulator. if that thing can turn, why not other jets?
Yes I have that sim thats Falcon 4 as I stated rudder is rarely used in real life in high speed aircraft such as F-16s. In falcon I rarely use the rudder unless the aircraft is damaged although I do use the rudder occassionally in lockon in the A-10 for example to help adjust my aim whilst straffing. Trim however is something all aircraft use.
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from what i can gather, the programmers believe the rudder functions the way it does because of how pilots use yaw to counteract wind - although not realising that there is no wind component in ArmA (and ignoring the fact that pilots dont have to hold the rudder to do so). coming from an airplane point of view, it is possible to use a rudder to turn - while not the most efficient means to do so, it can be done.in the same manner a rudder is used to turn a large ship, if you keep a rudder deflected, it creates a force on the tailplane (or stern) to shift it in the opposite direction to the way the rudder points. this rotates the airframe (hull), along with it's thrust line, resulting in a change of direction. if the rudder is held in the same position, it keeps turning, and so does the direction of the craft.
yes, there is a bit of a roll generated because one wingtip is going faster than the other, but lets get the programmers to fix the primary effects first, eh? then maybe, if the flight models are looking somewhat respectable, then we'll think about those finer points...
Rudder is used in fixed wing aircraft to coordinate turns as if you turn without using them the aircraft is actually slipping sideways. The exception to this though is fast moving aircraft such as the F-16 which hardly use rudder at all although they do use trim as the fly by wire system takes care of it.
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This idea that unless the aircraft fly like magic Phisher-Price UFOs you need to devote your entire life to learning the game needs to die. The current ArmA aircraft are ARCADE. Anyone who treats them with respect should be able to fly them first try. The problem is not the aircraft difficulty but simply the attitude most people approach them with.Give the ground some clearance, use autohover if you have to, slow down early, take the long way around the enemy, etc. It's people who think they are Maverick McIceGoose that are the ones to smash 10 multiplayer teammates into a mountainside while trying to do NoE in fog.
That being said, this whole thread has the wrong idea about aircraft in ArmA. ArmA is an infantry simulator with vehicle support. The further away from boots-in-mud you get the less fidelity matters. The point of a helicopter is to transport troops from A to B. If it does the job passably, fine. The point of the A-10 is to provide ground support. If a ground soldier watching the aircraft from the outside cant' see anything wrong, then there's nothing wrong. Aircraft in ArmA are a means to an end. Some people are simply too ADHD, impatient, and plain unskilled that they are drawn away from the actual fight to the whirlybirds and jets. Unfortunately the sad truth of the matter is flying is a highly skilled position which is as-a-rule harder than being a grunt. People end up complaining as they hope having 10,000,000$ of machinery is going to make it easy, but they are misinformed.
Cite:
Quote[/b] ]
Raise your right hand if you're here playing ArmA running away from BF2? I am. When in BF2 would anyone stick to the ground when an empty helicopter is parked a few feet away? Hardly ever. I hate helicopter-fever with a passion. Helicopters and jets and the like are a huge source of firepower; in terms of both realism and gameplay greater firepower comes with greater responsibility.
Quote[/b] ]I want to play games with servers full of people enjoying themselves.If your version of 'enjoying themselves' is hopping in the nearest, most expensive piece of military hardware alone, without support, with no sense of preserving either you or the hardware and with no intention of helping your team, then you get exactly ZERO sympathy from me.
I don't know what dictionary you're working with but my definition of "fun" doesn't including being stupid and uncaring to your fellow teammates.
Thats really following the BF2 approach right there. IMO its better to release a high quality FPS at the detail of Arma or OFP and then release individual aircraft/tanks/ships/submarines addons that are correctly modeled to realistically show/model the aircrafts/vehicles capabilities(to an acceptable level) correctly and then have that as an addon increases profit as people will buy the addon to use the vehicle. Now for me the helicopter FM isn't that much of a big deal(since I can use my Hotas) but the actual weapons employment is! For a gunship pilot its more a matter of sneaking up on the target and nailing it. But 1st of course you must find the target in order to destroy it so TI and NVGs etc come into the equation. Locate the target, slew the TDC,Ground stabilise, Lock, LASE, Fire. Not simply arrive at a waypoint, cycle target and fire.
. Where the A-10 comes in its a matter of finding the target visually with Trakir,turn towards the tgt and ingress, slew TDC, ground stabilise Lock 65 and fire.(not forgetting master arm on) As for straffing with rockets and the avenger you need a good pipper and for bombs of course CCIP pipper and CCRP. From a jet combat/Gunship simmers perspective actual combat involves procedures to employ weapons and missions are planned well in advance in great detail to avoid threats whilst still hitting the tgt on time and with the right weapon. As for A/A combat the radar/ECM/RWR/Trakir all play a vital role in finding the enemy whilst teamwork and good sensor use helps you locate the bad guys and use the correct weapon to take him out. 9 times out of 10 most kills should be BVR and should be done by CAP. -
Viper is also the F-16s nickname hence the confusion. I've always considered the AH1 to be the Cobra and the 1Z the supercobra.
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The F-16 has always had FBW
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Ok the real problem here is that the UH60 is Fly by wire flight controls. So its FM is totally different to the Cobra or littlebird. I think that the UH60 requires much less tail rotor input IRL than the other helicopters because of this. Now if you compare the Little birds and Cobras FM to FSX you'll find FSX is closer to the real deal in that tail rotor input is required according to increase in revs by the main rotor. Even during highspeed flight such helicopters still require input from the tail rotor where as FBW probably doesn't as it would automatically adjust that for you.
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Compared to other FPS games out there the FM for Armas helicopters is the best I've seen so far. I can still pull loops and rolls with the Cobra. I haven't tried the hog out yet but when I do I'll be able to compare it to lockons as I've spent a fair bit of time using the hog in lockon. From a realism perspective I think the weapons employment from the helicopters could be better if we could use a proper optical sight on an mfd and also couple that with zoom, ground stabilise and lock with laser for hell fires. I know that in OFP there was the ability to paint a target from the ground for lgbs. It would be good if the Kiowa could do this for the cobras hellfires(if someone were to make one for it).
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Yup as I just discovered, this game rocks now.
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I have an x52. Â I have the twist axis set to the rudder pedals and the throttle stick set to increase thrust and decrease thrust. Â I have it set up like an aircraft throttle (up for more), but you can set it for the inverse by moving the throttle in the opposite direction (more like a helicopter).What you do is you go into the keyboard settings, get the thing ready to receive a keystroke, then move the throttle... and voila!
I have fixed the problem thanks guys I am now an Arma addict
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What about HOTAS support as the controls would be far better when flying the helicopters if we could use the throttle for collective and rudder pedals for the tail rotor. Overall the helicopters nice to fly but just the addition of Hotas support would up the realism alot.You can...
Well... I mean, I can... maybe you can't...
What do have collective set for your throttle and rudder pedals setup for your tail rotor? My X45 doesn't seem to be detected by Arma.
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The picture + videos say more than words can, so let's jump right into them. This is all stuff that I've been working on lately at my job - this is the first time I've really had an opportunity to post about them.Here's 40+ feet wide worth of beautiful screen real estate. The kicker is that you can shoot at it with laser-equipped, Co2-powered recoil weapons and kill stuff in the environment. (Note that the black borders are only on those screens, the final product has seamless screens)
http://www.dslyecxi.com/lsthingsthatareneat/4screen_sml.jpg
Here's that same setup, flying around in a helo.
http://www.dslyecxi.com/lsthingsthatareneat/four_screen_ah6.wmv
And last but by no means least, we have the icing on the cake - live-fire! This is me, with my own personal rifle, with real bullets, shooting virtual bad guys. The calibration was off a bit (shots were registering low, hence the many leg shots and near-misses below the enemies), but still, it was pure awesomeness incarnate. Dumped about five magazines through some of my scenarios in a 10 minute period.
http://www.dslyecxi.com/lsthing....r15.wmv
 
Ok nice setup but you really need HOTAS though it takes away from the realism when you start using a mouse to fly a helicopter. HOTAS with rudder pedals in ARMA would be more impressive. BTW how many projectors are you using?
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Decent HOTAS support has my vote as with both collective with the throttle and rudder axis for the tail rotor. (with that it would probably be possible to adjust the sensitivity of the rudder axis)The thing is that tail rotor input is constant to fly helicopters. It needs to be applied in response to increased power from the main rotors. If they add HOTAS support then I'd be really impressed as no FPS has ever crossed that line.
Just one other thing the targetting for helicopters it would be nice to have a realistic MFD targetting display and also to be able to use the HAT on my stick to slew the TDC onto targets, ground stabilise and lock. That would be cool as an addon anyway. -
most games don't offer the complexity and depth of control that AmA provides. It's hard to get that and keep it simple as well. I think they did a decent job and I had to only change a few key assignments.I like the fact that you can have multiple commands on the same key and that hitting twice quickly and holding it longer have a different effect than just pressing it.
Look at my right mouse button. Tap it and it brings up the iron sights. Hold it down and I hold my breath for aiming and/or call out targets. I could set it up so a quick double tap does something else as well.
What about HOTAS support as the controls would be far better when flying the helicopters if we could use the throttle for collective and rudder pedals for the tail rotor. Overall the helicopters nice to fly but just the addition of Hotas support would up the realism alot.
Aircraft Rudders
in ARMA - GENERAL
Posted
Thats good to hear I wonder what their intentions are with aircraft in Arma 2? Theres a good opportunity there for them to make some extra money with fully modeled aircraft and vehicle addons. It would certainly add alot more to the enviroment to have actual jet and helicopter sim pilots doing their stuff on the battlefield online. Its possible FighterOps might go the FPS path one day but that will be a few years yet.