Second

AI won't shoot civilians even if civilians are shooting at and killing them... Unless they are part of enemy group. In that case they are defined to be enemies aswell (give civilian a gun and he will fight as part of that enemy group) If civilians and enemies are not grouped to same group. your troops won't shoot at civilians, but ofcourse they can shoot inaccurately and by doing so they can hit civilians by accident. However, they don't understand that civilians could be inside balst radius of grenades and other area effecting weapons. So they will lob grenades or shoot with tank cannon towards bad guy who is standing close to civilians.

AI won't shoot civilians even if civilians are shooting at and killing them... Unless they are part of enemy group. In that case they are defined to be enemies aswell (give civilian a gun and he will fight as part of that enemy group) If civilians and enemies are not grouped to same group. your troops won't shoot at civilians, but ofcourse they can shoot inaccurately and by doing so they can hit civilians by accident. However, they don't understand that civilians could be inside balst radius of grenades and other area effecting weapons. So they will lob grenades or shoot with tank cannon towards bad guy who is standing close to civilians.

I always figured they would train them at the North-Eastern most base. The one that you have to attack with the 2 other abrams in the single player mission and in the campaign. There is a good amount of flat space there. The base is big so you know it can fit trainers and recruits. Its also out of the way of the South. Thats just what I thought though. Im sure there are holes in it. Well... err... Your right, there is space which i've forgoten totaly.

I always figured they would train them at the North-Eastern most base. The one that you have to attack with the 2 other abrams in the single player mission and in the campaign. There is a good amount of flat space there. The base is big so you know it can fit trainers and recruits. Its also out of the way of the South. Thats just what I thought though. Im sure there are holes in it. Well... err... Your right, there is space which i've forgoten totaly.

Sure... if North Sahrani would be size of Iraq. North Sahrani might have about 5000-10000 citizens. There are going to be 5-10 insurgents in whole country Hey man! It can be enough to win occupation in OFP's resistance campaign but not in real life. Well i'm lying, in resistance they had several hundreds of men + James + US and bigger country (Nogova as whole). @liljb15: Look at the map and look it's size. There is no space for querilla troops to operate. One quite funny thing is (which has been discussed earlier too)... Where did SLA train it's tankers and those BIG (atleast batallion or two) mechaniced units? There's not much open space in there, just mountain valleys and fields. Was SLA armored unit named something like 'Mountain Armored Brigade' by anychange?

Sure... if North Sahrani would be size of Iraq. North Sahrani might have about 5000-10000 citizens. There are going to be 5-10 insurgents in whole country Hey man! It can be enough to win occupation in OFP's resistance campaign but not in real life. Well i'm lying, in resistance they had several hundreds of men + James + US and bigger country (Nogova as whole). @liljb15: Look at the map and look it's size. There is no space for querilla troops to operate. One quite funny thing is (which has been discussed earlier too)... Where did SLA train it's tankers and those BIG (atleast batallion or two) mechaniced units? There's not much open space in there, just mountain valleys and fields. Was SLA armored unit named something like 'Mountain Armored Brigade' by anychange?

Basically everyone knows every one as population is small (one mole would most likely reveal whole HUGE 10-20 man resistance organization). No big cities but mostly small 100-200 population villages. Too small space, few mountains and forests (not much hideouts in wilderness). US and RACS can safely operate from Southern Sahrani, with choppers, boats, UAVs, electronical recon, patrols etc... There would be need for only few SpecOp or RACS quard's units operating 24/7 in mountains and forests of Northern Sahrani. You see, they can remote-occupy whole northern Sahrani 10 man Resistance would be screwed and short lived if they show anykind activity other than throw US vehicles with rotten eggs. No place to hide, no place to run and ocean is around you. So i go for MehMan.

Basically everyone knows every one as population is small (one mole would most likely reveal whole HUGE 10-20 man resistance organization). No big cities but mostly small 100-200 population villages. Too small space, few mountains and forests (not much hideouts in wilderness). US and RACS can safely operate from Southern Sahrani, with choppers, boats, UAVs, electronical recon, patrols etc... There would be need for only few SpecOp or RACS quard's units operating 24/7 in mountains and forests of Northern Sahrani. You see, they can remote-occupy whole northern Sahrani 10 man Resistance would be screwed and short lived if they show anykind activity other than throw US vehicles with rotten eggs. No place to hide, no place to run and ocean is around you. So i go for MehMan.

FDF's optic is somewhat close to you picture in previous page. But they weren't zeroed correctly (800 meter line in optics worked as 0 meters for gun). Altough i'm pretty sure that ballistics weren't correct but like said i couldn't much test them as optics were zeroed incorrectly.

@Israelieagle : I quess it was 2006 during start of Lebanon war. Don't worry, i'm not carrying hard feelings to Israel for that and i didn't mean to insult, flame or anything. Bad things happens and he wasn't my relative. Bomb might have gone miss from their intentented target, which is most likely the true reason for that. Atleast if i remember right, there was some hostile activity (from Israel's point of view) close by. Atleast so went the unofficial report from Israel side, if i remember right. EDIt: Chops was faster. So i repeat: No hard feeling for that.

Yup. UN station was bombed by Israel. I don't remeber who many died but one man from my country was killed in that. I quess, no explanations what so ever had been given about it by Israel. Bomb-didi-bomb-bomb And like said, Grozny is kinda ruined right now. Bombs have done what they can done, which is: A. kill B. Make opponents even more motivated C. Make resistance stronger due bitterness Same pattern can be seen everywhere. So just Bomb-didi-bomb-bombing ain't gona work.

What game could be better suited? Except GTA, of course Well... Fallout 1-2, All Elderscrolls, Gothics, Mount&Blade... Even Baldur's Gates, Never Winter Nights. Ofcourse System Shock... Let me think, there are hundreds... Arx Fatalis. GTA, too if one plays it so. Ultimas + These internet RPGs. Yup, there are games Altough nothing beats good old paper&pen + set of dices: Alcoholist Dwarf with severe mental problems doing his watch duty during dark night. And so he (again) starts to seek comfort from booze. Remeber, this is personal opinion. I don't like storytelling campaigns in ArmA, to me they just won't work. ArmA, as well as OFP, just feels so clumbsy in those areas.

What game could be better suited? Except GTA, of course Well... Fallout 1-2, All Elderscrolls, Gothics, Mount&Blade... Even Baldur's Gates, Never Winter Nights. Ofcourse System Shock... Let me think, there are hundreds... Arx Fatalis. GTA, too if one plays it so. Ultimas + These internet RPGs. Yup, there are games Altough nothing beats good old paper&pen + set of dices: Alcoholist Dwarf with severe mental problems doing his watch duty during dark night. And so he (again) starts to seek comfort from booze. Remeber, this is personal opinion. I don't like storytelling campaigns in ArmA, to me they just won't work. ArmA, as well as OFP, just feels so clumbsy in those areas.

Naah. To me rpg is about swords and magic. Good plot, cooperative playing style (some uncooperative player too), personal characters, pen&paper + set of dices. Or LARP... On computer it is mediveal fps, or fallout Tried Sahranilife once... Had to quit after short while. ArmA is just not very suitable for rpg. Engine and all. It flexible, but not just suitable.

Naah. To me rpg is about swords and magic. Good plot, cooperative playing style (some uncooperative player too), personal characters, pen&paper + set of dices. Or LARP... On computer it is mediveal fps, or fallout Tried Sahranilife once... Had to quit after short while. ArmA is just not very suitable for rpg. Engine and all. It flexible, but not just suitable.

They shouldn't run from vehicles... Until it opens fire at them ofcourse (First hide and if that is not enough then run) Infact their ability to flee has been disabled (allowfleeing 0). Scripts are taking care of that, enough suppression and their allowfleeing is increased to 1, causing them to flee. Had to do that because suppression scripts are taking care of moralemodel and built-in morale kept interfering with that. There are some things which causes them to evade forexample aircrafts... Sadly i don't know how or when it happens, and i've seen it happening only couple of times. Don't know does it apply to vehicles. But it shouldn't be affected by allowfleeing or fleeing value. I've seen it happen with squads that haven't been suffering anykind casualities and only enemycontact they are having is Camel flying in sky... I quess this was in 1.05 (when machinegunners didn't know how to shoot birds from sky)

Oh Yeah. I'm having either too small monitor+mouse+rig (what a excuse ) or i'm getting old and slow, but when i usually play some game in MP i'm below average. Was it ArmA in small CFT or Some Vietcong in CTF etc... If it comes me facing another one man-to-man with same reaction time (or i having slight advantage). I lose, always, expacely with games that enables faster moving speed & aiming (like in Vietcong). In ArmA i don't suck that much, but still... Either other gamers are dirty little cheaters or i'm just bad... Old and slow... And cranky

Same applies to squads which lose some men, get new men and lose them again and get new men again and lose them again etc... Eventually they can't take much casualities anymore. They will flee very easily. I'm not sure about this, but even sight of enemy vehicle can cause them to flee.

Monday June 10. It's 8.30 morning. My platoon reinforced by 2 Stryker ATGMs + 2 M1 Abrams was holding area infront of Mercalillo, positions called defencepost 1, as we started to hear engine roaring from north. Many engines, definedly BMPs as well as few T-72s. Minutes crawled as i started to look for good spot (and got rid of M4 with aimpoint ). Sounds of engines started to crow louder and soon first BOOM. Our M1 had opened fire and got hit to enemy vehicle. Smoke started to rise behind gentle hill. After short while more loud explosions, but it was too chaotic for know what was going on. We were bombarded by 122mm shells, it lasted minutes. When i checked the map, i could see thet our vehicles were not there anymore. Could only wonder did they go away, or were they destoryed. Sure, engine roars could be heard from where i expected enemy to come. Soon barrage moved bit behind us and soon small arms fire arose mixed with automatic cannon, but it wasn't from where i was expecting. Enemy infantry was trying to push to our positions from north-west, that way it had to face just our one squad (squad 1). Pretty soon after that, my squad (squad 3) got orders to move to squad 1's positions as they were running for they lives. We started to move, but unfortunately our movement was cut down. There was aprox two platoons of mechaniced enemys attacking and my squad didn't have a change. Our squadleader ordered us to retreat as well, many were dead already and some were trying to find medic. There was anymore our only squad (squad 2) holding positions to far right with they lighter arms than rest of us. And i could see T-72 joining the assault to our positions as i got behind trees and into valley. So we ran, those few who remained. And got to our second postions, defence post 2. Sometime after that few remainers from squad 2 was running to defence post 2 aswell. You could say that we were literally threw out from our first positions, i don't think we did much naything to enemy. Medics were working on our wounded ones and what was remaining from our platoon wasn't much, no AT-men atall, which was very bad... It was quite grim looking situation. My squad's positions were on hill with trees to far left so i went to search good firing positions. I quess it was 9.30 by then. I could see enemy vehicles tearing down trees in our previous positions. And then the artillery barrage started again... It didn't last long before some of our men were already wounded and one killed as well as enemy vehicles were already getting closer as well as lots of men... they were hard to hit due long disntace and the fact that BMP's were ready to kill anyone they see. Squadleader couldn't take it anymore and so he ordered us to flee. Cracks form supersonic bullets ripped the ear as we were running behind hill. I was sure that we were lucky when we did that. And so were we. Soon that fight ended, our platoon was holding it's second last positions. Defence post 3. There was only one hill before Gorazol which we could try to keep. Whole advance to North Sahrani would dry up with horrible consequences (main forces fighting in vicinity of Everon would be pocketed), if we were threw to Gorazol. What was left of my platoon wasn't much, i quess 5-7 men. Luckly HQ could send us reinforcement. Men and 2 M1's as well as 2 Stryker ATGMs. Platoon was almost full strenght. 30 men, lots of AT-weapons backed up by vehicles. It actually felt quite safe again. We had several hours with out contact to enemy, but there they were half kilometer to north-north-west of us. Then the barrage started again on our positions. I wasn't with my squad, but with squad 2 to far right (they had good positions in small forest next to rocks, when my own squad was in middle of open ). From this battle i don't remember anything, i quess we were already loosing the battle (my squad might had run again in panic, but i remained with Squad 2), when enemy ceased it's attack and pulled back.. There were several enemy vehicles burning in horizon. I i quess i had changed my M4 to M4 with M203 and picked up M136. Enemy was silent, it must have paid heavy toll from that battle. We held our positons and managed to get ammo supply + plus new men. Hours past away and it became darker. Again engines roared, enemy must had new fresh men and vehicles. I in fact saw one BMP doing flying trick, thanks to bug. It ended to it's roof and so nicely enemy lost once again it's vehicle. Then again... Barrage by enemy. I was lying in rocks next to squad 2's positions and enemy vehicles as well as few men started to show themselves on hill. I kept my fire down as i didn't intend to get noticed by enemy. Barrage ceased, but enemy was sitting still. Few vehciels were burning already (M1's and Strykers had to have their part in this, but i could see or hear anything during barrage. Better to keep head down) and i chosed to put my launcer into work. I crawled along bushes to get closer as there was BMP in position which i couldn't fire from longer ranges. One enemy, sniper if i recall, poped visible behind hill crest. I shot him, rushed towards BMP, fired and started to run like h*ll back to positions. I made it. ---Here is long black moment for me. I don't know did enemy need to try new attack during this time or is the following situation directly related to earlier me running away from burning BMP. Situation was messed and so was i--- We kept firing enemies which seemed to be scattered, they were coming by one or by two. I don't know what happened but my squad leader told us to pull back, there was only one guy dead and no remarlable pressure from enemy. We feld to defence post 4... Once again hours past and it was very dark and it started to rain. visibility was zero, but i had NVGs. Squad leader ordered us to get back to defence post 3. Rest of platoon didn't flee in the first place, so i was bit shamed from it. Our squad was almost full strenght while rest of them were in bad shape. We were already out of reinforcements, so they couldn't fill their rank but with few men. Yet squad leader moved very slowly, i don't know what was problem with AI. So i left them behind and ran. Just in time, enemy did come on foot with out barrage (which already did ran out of ammo), using deep forrested valley which led to positions of squad 1, to our far left. Fight was fierze, they came one by one, way too slowly but there was awfully lot of them. I logged grenades to valley and shot anyone who i saw, so did men from squad 1 (my squad was still on it's way, way too slowly). But enemy got lucky and they did hit someones. Eventually Squad 1 reported that it will fall back, too much causlities. I was in trouble, should i hold this spot or get out from here... I decide to go to squad 2 to far right, those men didn't flee and they had good positions. We waited, no enemy movement anymore... Minutes passed and my squad arrived to positions. I knew that enemy's artillery should have new supply of shells any time soon during comming morning. I knew that squad 1 wasn't up to it anymore. Finally we got report that enemy was collecting it's stuff and leaving. I had survived multiple heavy attacks, barrages agaisnt superior vehicle count, altough at start everything seemed to go wrong. Enemy too powerful, my squad always running away from enemy. No reinforcements anymore left. It was way past midnight and still raining. I think i shot 30 of them, most i shot during last battle, when they didin't have vehicles or arty support anymore. There was our company + paltoon of M1 as well as paltoon of Strykers against enemy's mechaniced batallion + company of tanks in this battle. So my part was rather small, only 30 guys. We had less than 20 men left, while enemy still had 50-60 men. But luckly they didn't have anything to support them, all vehicles lost. This was during my betatesting session with mission called Dynamic Delay. In single player mode ofcourse. Funny thing is: That mission was made by me, i wrote scripts and already i had spent tens or hundreds test hours with it during OFP and ArmA. But during this testingsession whole mission blew me away, i didn't know what actually happened it was just haze to me. And hopefully you dear reader didn't fall in sleep Here should be the image about map, bad guality but should give general idea: http://aycu26.webshots.com/image....MG]

Okay we shall end our discussion then, but i have once more something to say. About colored classes of mine: I'm wearing Vietcong colored classes at the moment, thank you for asking. Have to admit, even if i don't play ArmA these days but for short moments and i'm disapointed to ArmA, still ArmA's AI in many ways raises my respect. And to me your debating against wrong things here. Major or even minor flaws of AI ain't in this area. Flaws are more combat related, i would say. I even did short list of some combat things and rated them in one of my earlier posts. Next about "resposibilities" of mission maker to make game work like he wants to be properly: If it not your job as mission maker to make base's alarm work the way you think, then who's job is to make mission work the way you (mission maker) like it? Err... Should ArmA make mission for you? You just would type something like this to console: "Give me 'sneak-into-base-blow-stuff-up-get-out-from-the-base' mission with good quality. Me alone against 2 n00b level AIs + 30 average level AIs + 1 elite level AI. Give me silenced guns and NVG" and ArmA would deliver mission like that... hmm... Infact BIS has presented us Mission Wizard which is bit like that. It ain't as powerful or flexible as actual mission editor, but quite limited actually. But i can think that someones do enjoy using it, if not wanting to use harder-to-learn mission editor. Infact in that mission AI won't easily hear silenced weapon. I fired MP5 as well as silenced M9 8 meters behind back of regular (skill 0.6) AI which had 'safe' behaviour-mode. I could shoot his mate (not grouped) few meters away behind his back with head shot and he didn't react to it. I also could fire towards sky from that distance and he didn't hear (or register?) the sound. If i killed his mate with body-shot and that mate screamed before dying then he reacted and became aware of me after short moment. Also they hear sound of movement very well. They infact hear footsteps on grass much more easier than sound of silenced weapon fired.

I would welcome that. Mission making would get alot easier, if one could tune AI reactions to hostiles, reaction to casualities, aggresiveness etc directly when planning waypoints. Now tweaking those things requires use of scripting-commands, and because of that they are ignored by many (i don't think BIS itself uses those commands in their missions ). I bet that would make use of commands much more easier to everyone. It ain't as powerful as scripting, but it's alot more easier.

I've noticed that when looking at forests. I have similar kind map but alot more forested, it is terrible to performace as it needs to draw alot bushes to long distance (ArmA hasn't handled bushes very well from the begining. They were and yet are major lag-makers) Atleast my rig runs Malden smoothly, but when looking at forest (major lag).

change class names in mission.sgm and correction scripts (few changes) at least is required even if map is 1:1 to OFP's map. There are ofcourse lots of things different from OFP, such as better spotting abilty for AI. Missions and cutscenes might work differently than in OFP.

Ethne: Yes there are aspect which are impossible to make better with scripts or triggers. However, forexample guard duty relies heavily on scripting and triggers. AI guards can do much about nothing. Stock-AI just spots enemy, informs it to the rest of his squad, and tries to shoot it. Waypoints give patrol routes to AI (mission makers responsibility). When conditions of alarm, reaction to alarm are resposibilities of mission maker. AI has no ways to handle this, it relies on mission making I'm not pro myself. But i've studied ArmA's and OFP's AI quite a bit when trying to mod it. But this is what mission maker chooses to do. I can make that same mission to perform so that you blow him up with handgrenade or stachel charge and base remains silent. No alarm, nothing. Zero. Nada. To your knowledge i opened mission .PBO and looked it thru therally and also tested AI's ability to spot killed buddies (not in same group) in that mission. Results: Ai is fine, you shoot it to head and it dies instantly. You shoot it to chest and it screams, which can be heard to long distance. Pretty logical, hu? Don't let them scream and you can kill whole camp. Shoot one so that he manages to scream before passin away and congrulations you have alerted whole base! Guys holding the base aren't any greens anymore. They are at regular level, which makes them quite sharp for these kinds of things. How ever there is one minor flaw or feature in one trigger, i don't think it that flaw, but to someone it might be an issue. If someone even briefly sees you before you kill him with clean head shot then whole base is alerted. This however ain't flaw in AI, but it is in trigger as there are no douplechecks conserning does spotter of player live after short moment anymore (simulates time to react before shouting to others etc. Well there are maybe only 0.01% changes that this would happen, so it ain't THAT major problem). After short moment from you have been spotted the whole base is alarmed and troops in base rush to move around base (and yes there are helluva lot of them). quite logical hu? Still your saying that it's problem with AI? Have you tested it's mechanics before bashing it? Sorry if i sound to be hard on you. I have not such intetion. But you seem to be quite bullheaded

First: did i call you n00b... No i did not. I called n00bish the thing that there has to be always multiple ways (with equal "difficulty") to complete given objective. Should there be several un-guarded holes in wall, or should HQ give you a tank? About gunning my way in to that base. As i said you or i have option to do so. I did say it would be bad/hard idea. But still it's possible, i've done that alot. So you have designed mission from beginning of OFP... Does it tell that your advanced? Because most of what your saying are poiting to BAD mission design! Well in your point of view, i can't find it to be bad mission desiging for example in that sabotage mission. I don't see most of what your saying to indicate to actual problems in AI. Mission design is expected to back-up AI, like briefing is to back-up player! In other words: You can make mission with bad guides to AI and claim that AI sucks. Did this make it any clearer? Walker was earlier pointing at the same thing. Example: I can make mission where troops don't react anyway when tank drives over wall into base, blows few vehicles and drives away. Let's say that it simulates conditions where troops have had their shipment of Vodka after exhausting 2 weeks combatphase without sleep. I can make two officers come out from barracks when player fires tanks cannon. If they don't see or hear the tank in one minute they go back to bed. If they do hear or see the tank they raise alarm and everyone is awake. This simulates the fact that troops might have had also bean-soup which makes them to fart loudly (bit like tanks cannon when it fires) so officers has to be certain that it was not a fart. I can make so that when player sets his foot inside base whole base goes nuts. This simulates that base has received their new sensor-set to help with guarding. You see? There are several ways how base could react in several different situations to something. It's better that there are ways to tweak it. One stock AI can't fullfill all of that. Now. The issue remains: What can be done by scripting, triggers when designing missions etc and what not. And what can be done by "general" scripts (addons) which overhauls AI and what not. Forexample SLX mod for OFP.