Journeyman

Even the nights are better! .... Even the nights are better Now that we are here together Even the nights are better Since I found you, oh ... BIS Even the days are brighter When someone you love's beside ya Even the nights are better Since I found you .... Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â EDIT: I just realized that Air Supply wrote that song back in 1982 before many of you were even born! Â

I find it amusing how so many people think of the Middle Ages and most of our early history as simple, boring and uneventful. This is why more than ever I feel it would be good for a few dedicated developers to concentrate some serious time on producing some seriously realistic historically accurate (as possible) fun RPG/FPS games. If medieval history does not interest you at all then fair enough, I can understand your disinterest in such a proposal! However, there are many who would find such reality history games as fascinating, fun and educational. As for COD2 it may not have been a totally realistic WW2 simulator but it went a long way to showing the gruesomeness and rawness of the period and was very atmospherically produced, but most of all it contained no phucking zombies!!!  I am not asking for 100% factual reality just reality full stop and where ever possible some useful history telling or at least a real feel for the period  .. Any period including Victorian and Elizabethan. So you don’t like history! I can see that, but there are plenty who find our history very fascinating. For most people yourself included medieval history is probably just a boring uneventful fog, but believe me there is more than plenty to tell and it is your ancestors as much as mine we are talking about!  If you don’t think that having realistic historical RPG/FPS games is worth having, then fair enough …. go play with your wizards and elves! I’m not stopping you and I really have no objection either!  Either that or have some imagination! Did you ever do history at school? I bet you found it boring, and that is partly to do with the way in which it is taught. Listening to lectures or reading books doesn’t work for most kids, but a video game would grab some serious attention!  I play Thief 3 and Oblivion and enjoy them, but if I had the choice I would sooner play something where I could be immersed into a factual historically accurate period and feel that I was gaining just a little bit more understanding of my ancestors lives at the same time. When I bought Thief 3 I had no previous knowledge of the game. It was a budget buy and sounded interesting from the box so I installed it. I was expecting nothing more than an interesting straight RPG game of thieving missions set in what appeared (in the first few missions anyway) as medieval England. .... As with Far Cry I was looking forward to this straight and realistic theme to continue and would have truly enjoyed every mission. But no there has to be monsters and magic in every game! …. That is my gripe! Â

Yes I did and I am interested! But this is a strategy game as is Rome Total War and this thread is about RPG/FPS games, or games that will give the first person immersion perspective rather than top down and swing the camera round, build your own empire stuff. These games are interesting in their own way but IMO do not give that all important immersion of an RPG/FPS and this is what my concern is that just about all games of this genre with any kind of historical content are just pure myth and magic! Â Â

Even the simplest of searches will bring up an exhaustive list….. Significant medieval battles... · The Battle of Chalons (451) · The Second Arab siege of Constantinople (718) · The Battle of Tours (732) · The Battle of Anchialus(917) · The Battle of Brunanburh (937) · The Battle of Maldon (c. 991) · The Battle of Kleidion (1014) · The Battle of Stamford Bridge (1066) · The Battle of Hastings (1066) · The Battle of Manzikert (1071) · The Battle of Levounion (1091) · The Battle of Crug Mawr (1136) · The Siege of Lisbon (1147) · The Battle of Sirmium (1167) · The Battle of Myriokephalon (1176) · The Battle of Hattin (1187) · The Battle of Adrianople (1205) · The Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa (1212) · The Battle of Bouvines (1214) · The Battle of the Golden Spurs (1302) · The Battle of Bannockburn (1314) · The Battle of Crécy (1346) · The Battle of Poitiers (1356) · The Battle of Nicopolis (1396) · The Battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg (1410) · The Battle of Agincourt (1415) · The Battle of Patay (1429) · The Battle of Towton (1461) · The Battle of Vaslui (1475) · The Battle of Bosworth Field (1485) Medieval wars... Major wars of the Middle Ages, arranged chronologically by year begun. · The Spanish Reconquista (718-1492): In which the Moors were driven from the Iberian Peninsula; begun under Pelayo in Asturias, concluded under the Catholic Monarchs (Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon), of Columbus fame. · The Crusades (1096-1291): A generic, catch-all term for Church-sanctioned wars against non-Christians or heretics. o 1096–1099—First Crusade: The only "successful" crusade against the Islamic Near East; Christian states were established throughout the Levant. o 1101—Crusade of 1101 o 1147–1149—Second Crusade o 1187–1191—Third Crusade o 1202–1204—Fourth Crusade: In which the Western forces sacked Constantinople o 1209–1229—Albigensian Crusade: In which the Albigensians in southern France were crushed. o 1212—Children's Crusade: Sometimes believed to be a fictional event o 1217–1221—Fifth Crusade o 1228—Sixth Crusade o 1248–1254—Seventh Crusade o 1270—Eighth Crusade o 1271–1291—Ninth Crusade · The Hundred Years' War (1337-1453): In which the English were eventually driven out of France; many famous events occurred during this war, including the Battle of Agincourt and the campaign under Joan of Arc. · The Wars of the Roses (1455-1487): War for the English throne between the Houses of Lancaster and York …. And these are just the battles and wars. Every soldier, knight, infantryman or civilian of the times would have had a social life too. The way criminals were dealt with in the stocks and public hangings, thugs of the times etc is all interesting historically, and is huge fodder in itself for interesting game content. Â

There are 28 pages of info regarding Track IR in this thread for answering your questions! Â

All that is needed is a bigger pile of rubble! I'm sure it will get fixed ... or modded!

It is truly fantastic that we now have swimming! Thank you BIS! ... No more killer water! ... Oh, wait ... I see a Jaws mod coming already! I think I now see surf on the shores too! It's all coming along perfectly. I do think we need just a bit more rubble from those collapsed buildings though, otherwise thumbs up all the way! Â

Size matters too! Â

Nice cat! Â

Yes exactly! And BTW I am not bashing your beloved Thief Pathy for anything else! Sure originally I felt disappointed in the way they ruined a setting, but I was not aware at that time that this setting was actually 'cloud cookoo land' rather than an attempt at medieval! With regards to Thief I am now more enlightened and have accepted the situation! Â As for fantasy story telling for kids of course there will always be myth and magic for them to enjoy! I was referring more to older kids, the sort of kids that put their teddy bears down and start playing with action man! Â And I'm sure also there will ALWLAYS be an element of the adult population who will favour zombies and dragons over knights and archers! Such is the diversity of the population! Â But please give us the choice so that at least folk like myself who prefer realistic stories over myth and magic can have our fun too! Â

I assume you meant accurate historical fact! I am not a developer, so know little about publishing trends, but I can make general observations of market forces. … You say a niche developer would be required to develop such a game thus applying that this would be a niche market. Well I guess you are right, but do we not already have such ‘niche’ games already demonstrating how successful historically realistic content can be? What about realistic WW2 games, and how many of these have there been in recent years already earning their place in gaming history? COD and COD2 were classics and demonstrate just how successful historical realism can be when told in a video game! OK WW2 was a major and historically fairly recent event, but I don’t see why this idea cannot be used for more distant history and especially medieval times of which there are many great battles to be told! Sure research will be harder but who’s going to know if some detail is incorrect? Like COD2 it would be the overall atmosphere and immersion into the period that will make the kill! Then there is the potential for greater things! If kids started to get high grades in history through playing such historically accurate FPS/RPG video games. How long before the educational institutions around the world jumped to attention? Schools and colleges around the world may well start ordering such software by the truckload! Just a scenario, but nevertheless I can almost see it happening! Older generations too will soon start playing more video games. Why? Because lifetime habits die hard and the youth of today will replace the current generation of PC techno freaks most of who would rather run in front of a bus than learn about computers or game consoles! … Though I do believe the market is already there if only people were offered it. I even think trends will change and there will be less and less witches and elves and more and more swords and spears rather than fingertips with fire! Kids will probably be the first to turn the tide as fans of the new realistic games start scoffing at their piers for still playing with zombies and dragons! OK! Back to reality! … I guess we will all just have to wait and see! Â

ironpadre is talking from a mature and sensible point of view! The problem from my observations is that there are a lot of immature and insensible people in these forums, who have yet to get a grasp on reality and how the world really rotates! .... Mostly though that the world does not rotate solely around them! Â ArmA is a game and it will come out when it is ready by all the parties concerned! Patience is something that has to be learned and will be useful in all aspects of life! Â

I second that! I think I played about 6 or 7 missions of VC2 before I realized how rubbish it was! VC and VC Fist Alpha were something else though, very atmospheric, tense and enjoyable and did not slide show your system on high settings! Â

No, it is not. Just go get a copy of the original Thief, or even Thief 2 (Check the , or the ), and from the very beginning of those games it looks very little like a medieval setting (at least even a remotely realistic one). I think I have to put this down to the generation gap between myself and you guys! I certainly had never heard of ‘steampunk’ and therefore am not familiar with this idea. Thanks Kegetys for explaining and offering the links! To me and I’m sure to any others picking this game up on its third incarnation and not having awareness of this ‘steampunk’ idea would assume only one thing – medieval, albeit medieval in a fictitious world hence the magic and mythical creatures. However, Thief 3 is but an example here for what I am trying to imply about how IMO too many games based in a ‘pseudo’ medieval world (as Xewery put it) rely too heavily on this theme of myth and magic to create interesting and entertaining game content! I also agree entirely with Xewery’s point about how this magic is usually implemented into games (and films etc.) without considering its broader social impact and acceptance into society in a believable way and instead just using it as a sort of escapism from reality and its potential implications. This is one of the reasons I don’t bother watching many films these days as most of this sort of fancy mythology is lost on me! And yes every battle is between good and evil and the good always win! It might sound fair but it is both unrealistic and boring! Yes I am a realism freak but I will happily accept unknown powers and mysterious happenings in games and films if only they were to be implemented in a realistic and believable manner and properly constructed into the story with all the various RL implications that would potentially go along with them. However, this is rarely the case so I usually get bored with it very quickly! This is why I personally prefer reality based games (and films) especially if they are historically based as there is just so much history to tell. Would it not be cool to live the life of a knight in medieval England? The trials and tribulations of that person’s life. The gruesomeness of those times, the primitive public punishments, the plagues, the battles, the theatres, basic city life of the times .. So much to tell! A game like this would be both entertaining and historically educational. No amount of book reading could substitute for this if it was done as accurately as possible. What a great way to educate us all about our ancestry whilst having great fun at the same time! Â

How about reading my first post properly? I started this thread to see whether my views on having more realistic historical games rather than myth and fantasy ones were an interest to others other than myself. … I'll count you out shall I?  As for reading books I've done plenty of that but fail to see what place it has in this debate for sure! Â

Well, if you had started the game from the beginning instead of part three it would most likely have been immediately apparent that it's not a medieval setting (The main menu already has some "strange" machinery on it). ... Do I hear the sounds of someone digging themselves out of a hole? Â Â Sure I do not know the full story of the Thief series, but even so it is still pretty apparent that the theme is that of a medieval setting. Every game is based in a period otherwise why bother with all the dress, scenery, speech dialects etc. Also I am not knocking thief as a bad game as I am enjoying it for what it is and the atmosphere it creates is awesome and definitely feels, as it should - deeply historical even though obviously pumped up with mythology. I just feel that there is a big opportunity missed here as there can be no better way to re-tell history than to put the player right into a period and force him to live and survive that era in a realistic RPG/FPS game such as this. Hmmm.... Who knows a developer some day will do a series just like this! Â

... Hmmm... How many clues do you need? The period dress, period weaponry, period buildings even a rather poor attempt at period pre Shakespeare English! You might as well say that Wolfenstien was not set in WW2! Â ... My point exactly! ... I will keep an eye out for Assassins Creed! ... Disagree! The later Middle Ages was a very eventful period and would do well to be told to the innocent masses! Â

Yep! Point taken! ... Like with Thief 3 I did not play the previous versions to get the background! However, I think you get the general drift of my gripe! Â ... I'm just waiting for someone to say: "don't buy a game if you don't know what it is all about in the first place!" Â Â The problem is there isn't that much choice and we have to take what there is! Â

Thanks for your contribution, but I think you're kind of missing my point. Whether Thief 1 & 2 was also a fantasy world setting is irrelevant to this argument! My point is about this kind of game in general. The name 'Thief' doesn't conjure up any Myth, Magic and fantasy in my dictionary, whereas Lord of The Rings is a known Mythical Fantasy story and if I were to buy such a game (as I did Oblivion) then I would expect this kind of content. I for sure don't wish to offend any of you fantasy game lovers as they have their place and I have enjoyed many myself. I just wish that occasionally if a developer should go to so much trouble over historical content that they cannot go just that little step further to please reality game lovers like myself! Like I said I am enjoying Thief 3 for what it is, and if I had been bothered enough to read up on it before I bought it I would probably have known what to expect!  I would just like for some developers to make a game similar to this but with more credible and historically accurate content and for those that don’t to make it more obvious that it is a fantasy game!  However, I suppose that I cannot dictate a market and I’m sure to be grossly outnumbered by the majority of the gaming community in general! As for Far Cry I was expecting a strait shooter and some of the early creatures in the game were almost acceptable within the storyline. However, the monsters just got more and more ridiculous as the game went on! Then there was ‘Return to Castle Wolfenstien’! What a great World War 2 setting and intense atmosphere of the period! What a total load of stupid and ridiculous zombies and creatures! … But then again I guess that bes just I!

Kim Sting! ...

Crikey I hope not - Oblivion was the biggest disappointment this year. And a terrible step down for the series in general. Not wishing to hijack this thread, but in what way is Oblivion a disappointment? So far I've only played it for a few days and have a long way to go with it. I never played Morrowind or the others so cannot compare. I'm not a great fan of these sort of games but felt inspired to give it a try on grounds of graphics and also my wife was interested although she has now stopped playing it as it is a bit 'over magical' and somewhat confusing mission wise! I like the medieval setting though but am a bit put off by all the magic and myth! If Gothic 3 is a similar game I don't know whether I will bother with it unless the graphics are outstanding and the storyline is a bit more credible and realistic! Is Gothic 3 also set in medieval times and is it also full of myth and magic? .... Hmm, maybe I just need more imagination and fantasy in my life! Â

Is this game a bit like Oblivion (first/third person mythical fantasy shooter)?

Never say never These two things add up nicely! Â Â Boy am I glad this game has been delayed! Â Also my gut feeling about the publishers is that Morphigon and the others releasing in November will release ArmA v1.0. 505 on the other hand will probably be releasing v1.1 or v1.2. Critical patches are always released shortly after going gold so I will wait for 505 in Q1 2007! Â

Never say never Hmm! Being cryptic again Eh?! First with the sheep now with swimming!  My physio told me that swimming will be good for my back, so I would be super grateful if BIS were to include it in ArmA!…  LOL! Thanks Placebo! Looking forward to this game now more than ever!   Â

I've just spent half an hour catching up with this thread! ... LMAO ... what’s up with some of you?  Europe and Australia have got a publisher at last .. that is fantastic news! So they may not release it until early next year! ... Play the demo, upgrade your PC, learn Spanish, find a GF, play something else, Just don't whinge about another tiny delay! Life is full of delays and disappointments and nothing EVER goes to plan! Be positive: The longer it takes, the more goes in, the less bugs come out! Moral: Be happy and be grateful, or take a plane to Africa and live the life of a child there for a few months! Â