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RedRogue

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  1. RedRogue

    The scariest webpage ever!

    598 m/h
  2. RedRogue

    Sooooo sweet sniper rifle

    Why does everyone always think larger caliber is better? Barret M82 or variant = less accurate, alot heavier, heavier ammunition, exposes the shooter alot better, and will still do dick against a Medium or Heavy tank and many APC/IFVs. Would rather carry a M24. Leave the Tanks to the Airforce, Armor and the suckers carrying the AT-4s.
  3. RedRogue

    Radar detectors..

    Why would you want one if you don't speed and therefore don't break the law. I always love the long trips. I'm going along at around the speed limit and someone overtakes me at  20 over. Ten minutes later there I am right behind them because they ran into some more slow traffic. So now instead of being 20 feet behind me they are now 20 feet infront of me, used a hell of a lot more fuel in the process and opened themselve to the probability of an expensive fine.
  4. RedRogue

    Mid east

    Saw this somewhere and thought it was an intresting read, read it for yourself and draw your own conclusions: Subject: An Open Letter to Jewish Americans From: Assaf Oron Date: Apr 5 2002 1:14 PM Dear People, Yesterday I was informed of an interesting phenomenon: a peace-supporting Jewish organization called Tikkun published an ad in favor of us, the Israeli reservist refuseniks, and was immediately bombarded with hate mails and phones from other American Jews. What's more interesting is that even other Jews considering themselves supporters of peace have denounced the Tikkun ad, to the extent that some of the Tikkun Advisory Board members are resigning in order to minimize the personal damage to themselves. This has so saddened, alarmed and angered me, that I find myself setting aside a half-day at the eve of Passover, and writing this open letter to you all. As is my habit, it is quite long, so please bear with me. Most of the 'civilized' attacks, so I understand, were seemingly aimed at this or that detail of the Tikkun ad. This is nothing new to me. Over the past two months since we came out with our own ad, I've heard and read so many specific arguments about specific aspects of our act. They range from petty nit picking to plain ludicrous, and each and every one of them can be refuted to dust in a matter of minutes. But the moment you refute them, new specific arguments sprout up like mushrooms. It is clear that there is something very general and non-specific behind all this criticism. Therefore, if you allow me, I will start from the general and only later turn to a couple of these specific issues. The general theme is the tribal theme. A very very loud voice (and in Israel nowadays, it is the only voice that is allowed to be fully heard) keeps shouting that we are in the midst of a war between two tribes: a tribe of human beings, of pure good - the Israelis - and a tribe of sub-human beings, of pure evil - the Palestinians. This voice is so loud, that it has found its way even to the op-ed pages of the New York Times (William Safire, March 24 or 25). To those who find this black-and-white picture a bit hard to believe, the same voice shouts that this is a war of life and death. Only one tribe will survive, and so even if we are not purely good, we must lay morality and conscience to sleep, shut up and fight to kill - or else, the Palestinians will throw us into the sea. Does this ring a bell to you? It does to me. As a little child growing up in Israel under Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan, all I heard was that the Arabs are inhuman monsters who want to throw us into the sea, they understand only force, and since our wonderful IDF has won the Six Day War they know not to mess with us anymore - or else. And of course, we must keep the Liberated Territories to ourselves, because there's no one to talk with. Then came the Yom Kippur war, and for a child of 7 it was the perfect proof that indeed the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, and what a great opportunity it was for our glorious IDF to teach them a lesson. I prayed for the war to continue to its natural and final end - the complete surrender of all Arab armies. I was too small to evaluate, then, how the war really ended; all these cease-fires and talks were too complicated and boring, much more boring than a war. And it seemed humiliating that WE should withdraw in these cease-fires; I remember that the re-opening of the Suez Canal was portrayed in our mass media as a kind of defeat. A few years passed and a funny thing happened: those throw-us-into-the-sea Arabs came to talk with us, and in exchange for all of Sinai they would sign a full peace. The IDF chief of staff (the late Motte Gur, later a Labor Party minister) shouted that it is a hoax, that we should not believe Saadat, but the politicians had to sign. Already a teenager, I went and protested against the withdrawal from Sinai. It seemed strange to me that most of the demonstrators were orthodox Jews. After all, it was a purely logical issue: the Arabs are not to be trusted, that's what we've learned from day one. Well, lucky for the country, the government and the majority of the people employed a different logic, and the peace with Egypt was not missed. But the throw-us-into-the-sea paradigm immediately found new fields for play. There was an inconvenient reality on the Northern border, and even though the forces on the other side (Palestinians! Phew! had strictly adhered to a secret cease-fire for about a year, they were Arabs and therefore could not be trusted. So we talked ourselves into invading Lebanon and setting up a friendlier regime there. The mastermind of the invasion was defense minister Ariel Sharon, and Shimon Peres, then head of opposition, voted together with his party in favor of the invasion. Only later, when it turned sour, and after many refuseniks already sat in jail, would the main opposition turn against the whole affair. For me at 16 it was also a turning point. When I understood that the government had lied to me in order to sell me this war, I turned from 'center-rightist' to 'leftist'. Sadly enough, it has taken me almost 20 more years, in a slow and painful process, to understand how deeply the lies and self-delusion are rooted in our collective perception of reality. Anyway, when Peres withdrew most of our forces from Lebanon in 1985, the Arabs could still not be trusted. And so, to soothe our endless paranoia and suspicion, we created that perpetual source of death and crime ironically known as "the Security Zone." It took many years, a lot of blood and Four Mothers - against almost all politicians, generals, and columnists - to finally pull us out of Lebanon. In the long and hard way, we learned that even the Lebanese are human beings whose rights must be respected. But not the Palestinians. Because the Palestinians are too painfully close, like a rival sibling (and - may I add - because they have always been so weak), we have singled them out for a special treatment. Having them under our rule, we've allowed ourselves to trample them like dirt, like dogs. We've been doing it even to our own Palestinian citizens (especially before 1966), but we have perfected our treatment in this strange no man's land created in 1967, and known as the Occupied Territories. There we have created an entirely hallucinatory reality, in which the true humans, members of the Nation of Masters, could move and settle freely and safely, while the sub-humans, the Nation of Slaves, were shoved into the corners, and kept invisible and controlled under our IDF boots. I know. I've been there. I was taught how to do this, back in the mid-1980's. I did and witnessed as a matter of fact, deeds that I'm ashamed to remember to this day. And fortunately for me, I did not have to witness or do anything truly 'pornographic', as some friends of mine experienced. Since 1987, this cruel, impossible, unnatural, insulting reality in the Territories has been exploding in our face. But because of our unshakeable belief that the Palestinians are monsters who want to throw us into the sea, we reacted by trying to maintain what we've created at all costs. This meant of course employing more and more and more force, with the natural result of receiving more and more and more force in return. When a fledgling and hesitating peace process tried to work its way through this mess, one major factor (perhaps THE factor) that undermined it and voided its meaning was our establishment's endless fear and suspicion of The Other. To resolve this fear and suspicion, we chose the insane route of demanding full control of The Other throughout the process. When this Other finally decided that we're cheating him out of his freedom (and having too many mental disorders of his own to accommodate ours as well), violence erupted, and all our ancient instincts woke up. There they are, we said in relief, now we see their true face again. The Arabs want to throw us into the sea. There's no one to talk with ('no partner', in our beloved ex-PM's words), and they understand only force. And so we responded as we know and love, with more and more and more force. This time, the effect was that of putting out a fire with a barrel of gasoline. And that's the moment when I said to myself, NO, I'm not playing this game anymore. But what about the existential threat, you may ask? Well I ask you, have you not eyes? Don't you see our tanks strolling in Palestinian streets every other day? Don't you see our helicopters hovering over their neighborhoods choosing which window to shoot a missile into? What type of existential need are we answering in trampling the Palestinians? Prevention of terror, I hear you say. Let me use the wonderful words of my friend Ishay Rosen-Zvi: "You are 'fighting against terror'? What a joke. The Israeli government, in its policies of Occupation, has turned the Territories into a greenhouse for growing terror!!!" We have sown the seeds, grown them, nurtured them - and then our blood is spilled, and the centrist-right-wing politicians reap the benefits. Indeed, terror is the right-wing politician's best friend. You know what? When you treat millions of people like sub-humans for so long, some of them will find inhuman strategies to fight back. Isn't that what the Zionists, and other Jewish revolutionaries, argued about a hundred years ago in order to explain the questionable strategies of survival that Jews used in Europe? Didn't our forefathers say, "Let us live like human beings, and see how we'll act just like other human beings"? So here's the deal. I hope that the first part of this letter made it clear that I don't buy the "they want to throw us into the sea" crap. It's just a collective self-delusion of ours. But more importantly, I don't see tribes. I see people, human beings. I believe that the Palestinians are human beings like us. What a concept, eh? And before everything else, before EVERYTHING else, we must treat them like human beings without demanding anything in return. And no (to all die-hard Barak fans), throwing them a couple of crumbs in which they can set up pitiful, completely controlled Bantustans in between our settlements and bypass roads, and believing it to be a great act of 'generosity', does NOT come close to answering this basic requirement. This requirement is NOT negotiable; moreover, in a perfect demonstration of historical justice, it is a vital requirement for the survival of our own State. After that, and based on the lessons of modern history, especially that of the Arab-Israeli conflict (as was briefly described above), I do believe that the Palestinians will calm down, and that the elusive 'Security' and peace will finally come upon us (as it did, incidentally, for almost two whole years between the Wye Accord of 1998 and Camp David 2000). I don't have any insurance policy for that (well - almost none, except the solemn promise of the entire Arab world), but remember - I have this funny notion that they are human beings. In any case, we are seeing now all too well what type of insurance policy the opposite paradigm is providing us. In the meanwhile, I refuse to be a terrorist in my tribe's name. Because that's what it is: not a "war against terror", as our propaganda machine tries to sell. This is a war OF terror, a war in which, in return for Palestinian guerrilla and terror, we employ the IDF in two types of terror. The more visible one are the violent acts of killing and destruction, those which some people still try to explain away as 'surgical acts of defense.' The worse type of terror is the silent one, which has continued unabated since 1967 and through the entire Oslo process. It is the terror of Occupation, of humiliation on a personal and collective basis, of deprivation and legalized robbery, of alternating exploitation and starvation. This is the mass of the iceberg, the terror that is itself a long-term greenhouse for counter-terror. And I simply refuse to be a terrorist and criminal, even if the entire tribe denounces me. That leads me to the first specific subject: are we, the refuseniks, being persecuted and denounced, or are we enjoying the wonderful Israeli tolerance and democracy and exploiting it to make trouble? Well, I must admit that this is not yet the USSR or Pinochet's Chile, and at least the Jews here enjoy a relative democracy (describing it as vibrant or tolerant would be a gross error, but that is a different subject altogether; maybe in another letter). I first must point out that the government and IDF also enjoy the image of 'letting us speak', and it serves them well. Secondly, in a rather sophisticated manner the establishment (with the generous and voluntary help of the mass media) is effectively shutting us up. The media has decided for us that there is no opposition. Thus, a demonstration of 20,000 is reported in 5 seconds at the late-night edition, and a demonstration of 500 outside a military prison is completely ignored. The fact that right now there are over a dozen refuseniks in jail - the largest number in twenty years - is hidden from the Israeli public. The story of Captain (res.) Itai Haviv and Sergeant (res.) Yair Yeffeth, who demanded a full military trial in which they could prove that refusal is innocence and that the order to serve in the Territories is illegal, was not told anywhere except for a brief mention in the back pages of Haaretz. So the public, of course, didn't learn that the IDF evaded answering these demands, and that Itai Haviv will spend the Seder night in prison following a 'disciplinary hearing.' I hope the readers are intelligent enough to know that if the media wanted, these stories would make the headlines. Still, you keep hearing about us. That's the key word, ABOUT us. But you don't hear us. You just hear people explaining, analyzing, mostly (in a ratio of 99 to 1) attacking us. We have become the perfect 'hate hour' figures, to reunite the tribe against (have you read "1984"?) Petty 'volunteer' groups who organized against us, a mayor who called upon local governments not to hire us, and a group of industrialists who called employers to fire us, have all won their moment in the spotlight. No one cared to mention that these are blatantly illegal calls (no, 'the law' is remembered only when we 'break' it). No one has tried to set limits to this 'discussion.' Moreover, the prime minister in one of his rare public addresses blamed us for the wave of terror (us, not his catastrophic policies). The IDF chief of staff can't stop talking about us; he sees us as a bunch of inciters with a hidden agenda. So, ironically, the only thing protecting us from long-term 'gulag' imprisonment and from losing our jobs is public opinion - the rather large pockets of support and sympathy among key sectors in the Israeli public, and yes, support ads such as the one published by Tikkun. The moment the government or IDF will think the lights are out, and no one sees or cares - they will find or invent the 'legal' clause (Israeli politicians are experts in this) and throw those they believe to be our 'leaders' to jail for long terms. Remember, even poor Abie Nathan was thrown in for two years, just because he dared speak with PLO personnel about peace. But that's nothing, because the moment our government will sense a 'lights out' situation - a huge terror attack, an American attack on Iraq - there will be a horrible bloodbath in the Territories, compared to which the last year and a half will be remembered as a happy picnic. And that brings me to the second specific issue, that of the Nazi allusion. Some readers thought that the way the Tikkun ad said "obeying orders" was an allusion to Nazi murderers' claim that they were "just obeying orders." Rabbi Lerner has rightly pointed out to these readers, that automatic execution of orders is a characteristic of all dictatorship, not just the Nazi one, while refusal on moral grounds is a sign of democracy. I agree, but let me be less polite and politically correct. After all, it's just my country that's going up in smoke as I write. What is this? Does Israel have the exclusive monopoly of labeling all its rivals as Nazis, and everyone else has to shut up, even when reality starts speaking for itself? Parties that support the essentially Nazi idea of deporting all Palestinians from the country, have been part of our Knesset and our 'legitimate' political map since 1984. Recent opinion polls show that 35% of the Jewish public now supports this 'solution', as it is sometimes called. Leaders, Rabbis, and just plain folk feel free to call openly in the mass media to eradicate Palestinian cities with or without their tenants. Last weekend, Gen. (res.) Effi Eitam, fresh out of the military and all ready to take the leadership of the religious public and become a deputy or alternative to Netanyahu, received a flattering cover story on Haaretz supplement. He unfolded his chilling ideology, calling to expel those Palestinians who don't want to remain in the Galilee and West Bank as serfs, to Jordan, and from Gaza to Sinai. And he said this: why should us, the country poorest in land resources, bear the burden of solving the Palestinian problem? Well I don't know about you, but I remember some of the Nazi rhetoric in that dark period between the Kristallnacht of 1938 and the beginning of the war, when Jews were expelled from Germany but could find no safe haven anywhere else. When I see a retired IDF general and rising political star use the exact same Nazi rhetoric on Israel's most 'liberal' newspaper, without any criticism by his interviewer or the editors - my hair just stands on my head in horror. Let's move from the political scene back to the ground. My friend, Captain (Res.) Dan Tamir, decided to refuse to serve in the Territories about a year ago, after he realized what he'd done as a reserve regiment's intelligence officer a few weeks before that. He realized he had laid out the plans to convert a large Palestinian town into a closed ghetto. You can find his full statement on our website, http://www.seruv.org.il/. The vast majority of Palestinians in the Territories now starve in such ghettos; in those days of mercy when they are allowed to leave them by foot and perhaps catch a taxi, these taxis are forbidden from using most of the paved roads in the region. But why listen to a 'leftist'? Let's hear it from senior IDF officers. One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz (Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how the German army 'operated' in the Warsaw Ghetto. A week later, the reporter confirmed this quote and the fact that this is a widespread opinion in the IDF, and went further to morally defend it. A small number of people, including myself, tried to raise a scandal over this. One letter to the editor was published in Haaretz. A much tougher letter, which I wrote, was never published, nor was my plea for a phone discussion with an editor ever answered. The issue just died down. No one in Israel or in the Jewish public abroad was interested. Where were all these holy souls, who now scold Tikkun because they indirectly allude to the Nazi horror, where were they all when a senior IDF officer proudly called, "in order to beat the Palestinians, let's be Judo-Nazis"? In my letter to Haaretz I went further. Knowing the IDF mentality and adding one to one, I concluded that the IDF is operationally prepared to invade refugee camps - an utter, indefensible war crime - and through this leak to the press it is starting to pressure the government and prepare the public opinion for the invasion. The letter was not published. It was sent on February 2. A few weeks later we all saw the horrors of the refugee camp invasions and the bloody revenge attacks that followed. And you know what? Army generals and colonels morally and professionally pat themselves on the back, because these invasions "prevented terror", and killed only dozens and not thousands. (Note: in fact, the major reason limiting the bloodshed was the 'terrorists' responsible decision not to turn the camps into all-out battlegrounds. But this may change in the next round.) Let me end this 'Nazi' discussion with Jose Saramagu's brave statement a couple of days ago. In case you haven't heard (no such case, I presume), he visited Ramallah and said that the reality imposed by Israel in Palestine is a crime. A crime that can be compared with Buchenwald and Auschwitz. Now Saramagu is no fool; he knows that there are no gas chambers in the Territories yet. But his keen writer's eye has perceived, that we are already well down the mental road that may lead there. This man is a true friend, and a true friend tells you the ugly truth in the face. Indeed, if you thoroughly brainwash yourself that "it's us or them", where does it lead you when push comes to shove? Saramagu's cry is intended to shock us, to wake us up to what we have really become, to what we are really doing, and to how all this might end. In this sense, he is trying to do exactly what we refuseniks tried to do with our letter, and I thank him for what he's done even though his words may have been too strong to swallow for most people. In truth, I have little hope that the Israeli public will wake up. The Israeli public, in its fear and confusion, has made a decision (aided by the politicians and mass media) to go to sleep and wake up only "after it is all over". But it won't be over, because while our mind sleeps our muscles tighten the death grip, instead of doing the only sensible thing (which requires an open mind) - which is to let go. Will you guys join the hypocrite mobs who sing lullabies to Israel and pounce upon the refuseniks, upon Tikkun, upon Saramagu, to shut us up? Or will you finally take responsibility and be the true friends that Israel needs now - even if it means not being 'nice' to Israel for a while? As you sit tonight at the Seder table, please remember the dozen or so refuseniks that spend this Seder in a military jail. More importantly, please remember the thousand or so people, three quarters Palestinians and one quarter Israelis, who were here with us a year ago and have been murdered. Most of them could have been here with us, if you and we had acted sooner. We have now acted, done what little we can do. Please think of the many thousands that may be doomed soon, if you continue sitting on the fence. May you have a happy Holiday of Freedom, Yours, Please help us struggle free from fear, racism, hatred and the deaths they produce. Assaf Oron
  5. RedRogue

    Mid east

    Oh my isn't there alot to cover now. Well this will probably be very disorganized but here we go. Scout- You are correct, in 1917 the British promised a large portion of the area of Palestine to the Jewish community for support in WW1, (Everyone always thinks the Jewish community has deep pockets) This was known as the Balfour agreement. However the major problem that arises is the British had just previously promised the same land to the Palestinian people for an independent state if they would rebel against the Ottoman empire and help the British defeat them, as the Ottoman empire had allied with Germany in WW1. The Palestinian people did revolt and it was a significant aid to the defeat of the Ottoman empire in WW1. After WW1 Britian put the issue on the back burner hoping it would go away someday I assume. However after WW2 European Jews and Jews that where being persecuted in America began to settle into areas of Palestine citing the Balfour agreement. The British couldn't stop the influx of settlers or control the rising tensions between the two ethnics. In the end they dumped the whole issue on American President Harry Truman to decide what to do. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view, Truman decided to back a formation of the state of Israel most likely because of public sympathy of Jewish treatment in WW2, and basically we where and still are ignorant of Middle Eastern culture or even existance. After the fact we have been bound to aid Israel for all this time, for that decision being right or wrong was our decision. So if the British hadn't promised the same land to two peoples that have historically been unable to ever coexist, and then doing nothing to resolve the issue where would we be? An unanswerable question as that was the past and this is now. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">{sic} Heck rouge. Where were you in 1993 when while there were peace talks, suicide bombers blowing themselves up in busses? Was it from dispair too? If Arafat wants peace so much why is there the worst kind of anti-semitic stuff in school books? From the "happy" years of 1993-1995? Why in his first speech in Gaza he announce that he's gonna "throw the jews to the sea"? Why, while we educated our people for peace they did it for war? Why did u wake up now? why didn't u wake when we were been slaughtered and didnt respond? It amazes me that when u hear about an attack thats targeted on israeli civilians all u hear is some kind of a low buzzz, but when we try to go after the shooters u scream on top of yer lungs on every scratch we do. What do u say about that church? Instead of being angry about those guys, who are using the church as a gun position so we couldnt react, and all i hear is "How dare these Israelis siege the church!" Oh, and the priest they said we killed? I've never seen such a live corpse. ---scout <span id='postcolor'> In 1993 this forum didn't exist so it would have been hard to say anything about those events where you would have seen it. And all that was an intresting source of debate then, just not here nor online. As for the Church of Nativity, the gunmen there have violated a religious site, a religion which I belong to. BUT, its just a building which can always be repaired. I wouldn't care if the Israeli army stormed the church an eliminated the gunmen IF it but absolutely 0 bystanders in harm's way. I'm very sure its hard to take fire from a building and be unable to return fire, but doing so would be careless if you couldn't prevent civilian casualties. Police officers have to do it all the time in stand offs. That may seen contrary from my previous stance on unneccesary public destruction by Israeli armor. But the property means little if a hostile force is present. My biggest beef with the tanks carelessly running over vehicles is how could they be sure there aren't people in them? I what little footage I've seen (which I cannot produce so it lays on the little value of my word) the armor was unbuttoned (not something you do in a hot zone) and just did it to do it. Avon- Objectivity is a funny word as it is impossible to actually obtain for any person in the world about this right now. Everyone has feelings about the issue. My view of objectivity is the willingness to see all sides of an issue without undo dismissal of what goes against your own ideology. That is where it is different between you and me. You are actually living this tragic affair, while here I am thousands of miles away. Your thoughts and opinions are strongly influenced over your emotions of fear for yourself, fear for your children and family. Feelings of anger towards the group of people that have spawned these murderers. Attachments to your community and way of life which are being disrupted by these events. I have none of these, but that does not leave me without my own feelings to distort my thinking. Perhaps I've been too vocal for the Palestinian side of this. But over here you read any local/nation or western media and its all pro Israel for the most part, with little word to what the Palestinian people are having to endure. I tend to feel for the underdog as the saying goes. The suicide bombers in no way are justified in their choice of targets. Groups like Hamas should be eleminated, and if hard backable evidence of Arafat's envolvement could be produced and made available to foreign powers for examination then I would be able to put more credit into Israeli claims of his actions. If Hamas and the like would have ever tried to target military assets then perhaps they could be validated, but they haven't. All they have done is to terror bomb civilians. But I find it very very hard to believe that a majority of Palestinian people are involved in this. I would think that most of them are just trying to go about their lifes. Making the whole pay for what the smaller group has done will never and has never worked. All it has ever done is brew anger and hostility toward the punisher. Personally I just never see an end to this ancient conflict.
  6. RedRogue

    Mid east

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,16:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RedRogue @ April 04 2002,17:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">please tell me why Israeli tanks needed to run over civilian vehicles when advancing into Bethlehem.<span id='postcolor'> Because they were used to block the streets by the PA. This is your problem? Chances are those may have been Israeli cars anyway.   </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Other than the men/women crewing those vehicles have no morality when it concerns Palestinian property or life.<span id='postcolor'> You got the wrong address, buster. Cry for their cars, the poor Palestinians. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Currently there is a close friend of my family that was  doing some missionary work thru the Southern Baptist here and was there to see the Nativity Church and the city of Bethlehem. The last message recieved from her said she was not being allowed to leave Bethlehem, bodies of the dead lay in the streets as noone could get to them because of Palestinian and Israeli gunfire, and that food was  running low.<span id='postcolor'> Yes, sounds like a war, doesn't it? More on the Chruch of the Nativity here and here.<span id='postcolor'> Well, frankly I know that I could never change your attitude one iota. Nor would I expect too, this is much closer to you than to me. Which makes it far easier for me to stand off and look objectively at this. But that is what its going to take on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides for this ever come to a close. As for the tanks destroying civilian cars. There was a video clip on MSNBC if I remember correctly. It showed a Israeli armored column entering Bethlehem. The lead tank goes down a street that curves lightly side to side. And instead of actually trying to follow the street it just goes in a straight line deliberately running over cars parked quite normally along the curve. But anyway I can't find the footage anymore and even if I could I can already see the refutale of: That wasn't from Bethlehem, or that wasn't current activities or etc. I get the impression that you think all Palestinians are guilty and terrorists Avon. You mentioned population transfers as methods to employ to hold peace. Where are you going to transfer them too? There isn't alot of land to move them too. And by forcefully moving them and keeping them there, most likely to the most worthless land available. You effectively destroy what little economy and infrasturcture they have. And in the end ultimately do to them what the "white men" did to Native Americans. Oh wait maybe this was the plan after all. I'm expecting a proper badgering, as I was getting quite liberal towards the end.
  7. RedRogue

    Mid east

    This space for rent I'm gonna push this submit button again cause it didn't show up and I just know this will turn into a double post.
  8. RedRogue

    Mid east

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,16:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee, then all those computers with their hard disks and everything else we found there must really have been placed there by us. I can see who's stupid. BTW, you from Arkansas? Oh, I totally forgot: that's the same building that Arafat is trapped inside of. However, I'm sure he really isn't because he wouldn't be this stupid, would he?<span id='postcolor'> Gee, then all those computers with their hard disks and everything else we found there must really have been placed there by us.-Avon Hard Drives can easily be destroyed and made unrecoverable. Infact alot easier and quicker than burning documents. You just need a good electromagnet. Nothing may have been placed there, but how do I know that this harddrive really is from a computer in the PLO headquarters, or the computer is even. Plus how far are vague references being interpreted, with enough thought a person can take the most innocent statement and turn it into a demonic declaration. I can see who's stupid. BTW, you from Arkansas?-Avon Wouldn't be the first time. And yup the second flag below is the state flag of Arkansas. Trivia bit, can anyone here tell me why the state flag is like it is. Oh, I totally forgot: that's the same building that Arafat is trapped inside of. However, I'm sure he really isn't because he wouldn't be this stupid, would he?-Avon It couldn't be a political and tactical move now could it. By "allowing" himself to be holed up where he is, it now leaves the ball in Israel's court. The next move is theirs now under extreme scrutiny of foreign powers and the UN for trapping him. It reinforces his standing with the Palestinian people, he is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. And it doesn't really hinder his activites. He is communicating easily with the outside and if the Israeli army tried to keep him from doing so would just further increase foreign scrutiny.
  9. RedRogue

    Mid east

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,14:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tell me, did the allies hate the axis forces on WWII? Defintely safe to say yes.<span id='postcolor'> Yes, but do we still hate Germany, Italy, or Japan. I don't know many Americans or any at all infact that go around saying "Fucking Germans, or that the Japanese are evil" The war is over, no real hatred or resentment about it. Thats the difference Avon, Your "war" will never be over. It just goes on and on add infinitium. The hatred never stops, please tell me why Israeli tanks needed to run over civilian vehicles when advancing into Bethlehem. Other than the men/women crewing those vehicles have no morality when it concerns Palestinian property or life. Currently there is a close friend of my family that was doing some missionary work thru the Southern Baptist here and was there to see the Nativity Church and the city of Bethlehem. The last message recieved from her said she was not being allowed to leave Bethlehem, bodies of the dead lay in the streets as noone could get to them because of Palestinian and Israeli gunfire, and that food was running low.
  10. RedRogue

    Mid east

    My thoughts on the supposed captured documents: Yes, lets keep extremely incrimidating documents in a facility that has been repeatedly bombed and is the most likely target for any Israeli ground offensive........ right. Please if a hillbilly from Arkansas can think of this possibility I do not think the PLO is this stupid.
  11. RedRogue

    T-90.t94

    I would think from my research, that the United States Navy decided to continue use of steel alloy hulls for a multitude of reasons. Nuclear subs are expensive as it is, forgot the cost but the Seawolf class was so expensive that only after a few where produced the Navy began developing a newer type to be more cost effective. Adding a Titanium alloy hull (As titanium is rarely used in pure form as its more brittle then steel) would have shot costs thru the already elevated roof. 1. Titanium is expensive to refine and make alloys when compared to steel. 2. Titanium is extremely hard to weld, infact it takes an electron beam welder to be able to weld it completely thru, which also requires extemely precision cut pieces. 3. Titanium allows a hull to be made of similar strength to steel but at a lower weight (mass). One of the things you can do to design quieter subs is increase the mass. Greater mass allows sounds such as pumps and machinery for nuclear reactors to be damped more before being passed to the ocean. The quietest subs out there are still Disel/electric subs, the Kilo class being a well regarded one if I remember. Â These subs run off batteries while submerged and have no pumps and noisy machinery running to propel the boat. However even with modern technology their maximum submergence is 2 weeks and they are considerably slower underwater than their nuclear bretheren.
  12. RedRogue

    Who has the worst army/forces in the world?

    Uh, Placebo. You want to take any bets on which way this one ends up going?
  13. RedRogue

    How many of u like the "plane"

    8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Airwolf @ April 03 2002,038)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">its ok, better with guns, and its a cessna 182.<span id='postcolor'> Skyhawk 172. Note the twin blade prop, 182s have a triple blade variable pitch prop.
  14. RedRogue

    Nato equipment in 1985

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 02 2002,15:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lemme just jump in here real quick... Contrary to what the original poster said, the M1 Abrams was not a 'new' tank in 1985. It went into production in 1979, people. I dont know about the rest of the stuff in yer post, but I will run that down just as soon as I have time. Yes, OFP is unrealistic in many ways, but not really all that much so in the ways you suggest.<span id='postcolor'> I think he is talking about the M1A1 not the M1. The M1A1 is the American MBT in OFP. The M1 started production well before 1985. However, the M1A1 series with the 105mm rifled cannon being replaced with a 120mm smooth-bore updated electronics and better turrent stabilization, lower heat emission turbine which was also more efficient and an armor upgrade that increased the Abrams tonnage from roughly 50+ to 65 tons. Was not produced until mid 1985 with the first few hundred being M1 to M1A1 conversions, so it is not logical the A1 series would be present on a minor conflict. And while they surely would send newer units to an escalating conflict how would they get their? Unless they where transported by a LST it would take a Galaxy III transport for every Abrams you wanted to send. As its the only aircraft in American service that can lift the behemoth. This is also a primary reason why the Abrams is being regulated to Reserve and National Guard Units. Hell in the Gulf war more armor units where killed by M2A2s with TOW missiles than M1A1 hits.
  15. RedRogue

    Best graphics card for around �150

    As I don't know if you have a BestBuy, CompUSA (would doubt this one the most), GameStop, Ebgames, or Fry'selectronics where you live I don't know if this is an option for you. But the Visiontek Geforce3 Ti200 is currently going for $179.00 with a $30.00 dollar main in rebate. Good solid card for the money. www.bestbuy.com compusa.com ebgames.com fryselectronics.com
  16. RedRogue

    What type of graphics card do you have

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DodgeME @ Mar. 20 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">GF5 are coming in da summer. Anyway GF4 are nothing else but tweaked GF3 cards and faster clock settings. only new things are the new AA system and 4XTS. Get a GF3 until the new GF5 with DX9 support arrive or the ATI's R300 Me drooling <span id='postcolor'> I don't know where you are getting your information from but Nvidia has already stated there will not be a Geforce5 series of cards. Their current plan is to have the Geforce 2 be their low end cards, Geforce 3 be their mid grade cards, and Geforce 4 cards being the high enders. They haven't made it official but any later developments are more likely to either come as expansions to the 3 current lines of cards or under a new trademark. MX cards actually should not be compared to the Titanium and GTS cards. MX cards do not have many of the game performance features such as vertex and pixel shaders. MX cards are based for the Home Office desktop user not gamers. The Geforce 4 series has an entirely new GPU with the Nfinite 2 engine and a new memory pipeline and bus architecture.
  17. RedRogue

    .50 cal rifle

    If only I had seen the smilie face first, none of this would have ever happened officer. Honest.
  18. RedRogue

    .50 cal rifle

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N.o.R.S.u @ Mar. 31 2002,13:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That .68 caliber ball rifle would be the choice for Resistance .<span id='postcolor'> Uh, these firearms are really quite rare and would have been just as much in 1985. The above was posted as a joke. This particular weapon was made in 1861. Its also a terrifically inaccurate weapon. During the American Civil War it took on average 100 shots per soilder killed or wounded on the battlefield. Thats a hell of alot considering its muzzle loaded. The "Resistance" would be much more likely to have such weapons as M1 Garands, Carbines, KAR 98 Mausers, Springfield 03s, and various hunting firearms.
  19. RedRogue

    .50 cal rifle

    One of the old "anti-material" rifles......... And we think modern day rifles can be horrific weapons. I would hate to see the wound a nice rounded .68 caliber ball shot makes.
  20. RedRogue

    T80 vs m1a1

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Mar. 31 2002,00:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this the same “low quality†stuff which kills 17 Panzers on first encounter near Moskow in 1941? BTW <span id='postcolor'> yeah it was low quality, you will probably find that the Germans were outnumbered so they were bound to lose.<span id='postcolor'> Uh, could we at least have read something about the T-34 before calling it "low quality"? During WW2 there where several German commanding officers that commented that the T-34 was the best tank in world at that time. It was the first tank to use sloped armor plate. It could do about 32mph flat out and housed a effective cannon against german tanks for the time. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-34.htm And don't knock numbers. The Sherman tank was pathetic in even numbers against any current production tank in the European theater. Its when you build 50,000 tanks vs. 18,000 tanks that makes the difference.
  21. RedRogue

    What's wrong with this picture

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Mar. 31 2002,03:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wobble posted it, it's on page 7 now, only seemed like a couple of days ago I'd better leave this thread open or you'll all call me a facist again <span id='postcolor'> Excellente El Presidente
  22. RedRogue

    I just purchase a ff2 joystick

    ?? If I knew what you where talking about I would try to help ??
  23. RedRogue

    Cops and donuts, cops and donuts

    Hmm should I ruin a perfect image example of cops and their doughnuts.......... Yeah why not, someone has to stick up for smokie. Anyways, I'm willing to bet thats a photo taken from the inside of a parking lot of a police station facing across the street to a doughnut shop on the other side. The proportions of the vehicles to the building aren't right for them to be parked next to it. However this does raise the question; Was the police station or the doughnut shop their first? Either way its a very "convienient" location.
  24. RedRogue

    .50 cal rifle

    I'm laughing my arse off here. This thing is still going on, and as for Flyboywannabe his credibility was pretty much settled on page 3.
  25. RedRogue

    Nvidia detonator drivers

    Creative 3D Annilator MX2 Latest Nvidia drivers = Insta reset under any Direct3D app. Creative Latest Drivers (Actually Nvdia's 2.7.50 Driver or the like) = Crappy arse graphics with lights showing thru all textures and a grid of black lines across the screen. And they say this driver is fully compatible with Win2K lol. And Older Creative driver nolonger available because the ignorant company of Creative doesn't archive their drivers, but thank god Win2K does all drivers that have been installed = fun carefree gaming.
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