Pete

Try to get an assignement *as far away* from any form of water. Military + water makes a very bad combination. not so easy when the water pours from the skies.... one day we were on the move somewhere and had orders to make emergency firing positions, that means that you just stop and put the mortars up where ever you are...and as happened we were in the middle of a wet swamp, rain pouring from the sky..the earth was so muddy that i was knee deep in it.. and then to move a 500 kg mortar on wheels to a suitable firing position (in less than a minute as ordered..my ass)..took us nearly ten minutes to get it all done, slippery mud made everything im possible, and to add to that all the small bushes and fallen trees on the ground... totally impossible we succeeded however, after some ten minutes or so...but our CO's werent pleased..they saw us as incompetent..and for that reason we had to put the mortars back into the vehicles, move 100 meters to a fresh muddy area and repeat the whole thing, and then another 100 meters, and another... we got more and more tired, hardly could stand up after all the power in my feet was used up pushing those mortars to position..and our CO's DEMANDED a 1 minute set up time. time and army...there is only one correct and acceptable time, if you dont succeed you need to repeat the procedure..which really just takes more time, but that kind of time seems ironically to be endless in the army..the time to "repeat things"

Basically I think games should be seen as entertainment, escapism etc. The last thing most people need when they turn on their PC to play a game is the feeling of guilt from shooting a soldier. aaah...of course but, i think there will always be those kinds of games where the enemy is a non-person. but for example deus ex, as i mentioned... you go to arrest someone, you are working for the police, the prisoner starts to tell you something but you get interupted by your boss who wants you to kill the prisoner. now you are already emotionally involved...obey a illegal order and kill him, or stand with your morale and kill your own boss...time is ticking, and you dont have much of it. i shot my boss in that situation, and i noticed that i was really worried as i got to the base, thinking someone would know, but nobody knew..some suspected, and i was so deep in the story, my character felt like me. i had the option to make a decision that i also would have taken in real life, it was not linear as good and bad. imagine you play ofp...you and your team enter a village with its villages put into a line and shot, after a short time you catch the enemy forces who did this, or atleast you think did it...you shoot some in the coming fight, the rest surrenders. they are a mixed crowd..some soldiers, some civilians..possibly allies to the enemy, some sort of partisans? soldiers on yuor team are really angry and starts to execute some of them...your commander does nothing, your team starts to massacre the enemy and you did nothing..you leave the place ridled with dead bodies... then you return back to base and there is no reaction...a few days (in game) later you hear rumours going around of what you did...someone saw it happen this adds to the whole...you feel that you done something wrong, and now you are nervous of getting found out, perhaps you wont, perhaps you will it makes no difference for the game as such, but it gives you so much more of a experience, i will never forget deus ex, and how nervous i was when back in base, i had done something that was not linear, something that i decided... not just "go to grid XXXXX, kill all enemies"

cant resist. P.S. Also those are U.N. not U.S. sanctions, get your facts straight Pete. Â The U.S. is not to blame for everything. true..but now all nations back of it and wants to lift the sanctions, they are worthless and doesnt work as supposed, only nations who desire to keep the santions are UK and USA.

Im so sick of threads like this.. what would be an interesing thread is hijacked and turned into one of the many many stupid, brainless US bash threads.. I just dont understand why shit like this isnt locked.. it could have been a intresting thread, yes. but it kinda got stuck to the foreign aid and didnt move anywhere....perhaps we sould stop fighting and continue it instead. as for those of you who think "too bad, shit happens" about 9/11 i never said that, but i did use it as a example...as did you. you used it as a excuse that makes attacking iraq justified, but iraq is not afaik connected to 9-11, i could as well posted a picture of hindenburg and said that thats what made germany declare war on the world. thats enough from me...now, please...add something for the thread that follows the topic.

i am very tired of this discussion..i know i am right..and it is very hard for me to stop trying to convince you that you are wrong. you seem so....blind for me, but perhaps i seem blind for you too? i could reply you on some things you wrote...but im tired. i just urge you to re-read the story of "vendetta"..and really think. it is a true story..imagine, a whole villages population just vanished in a serie of revenges..*puff*..gone how could that massacre been avoided foxer?..more and harder revenges?..go and kill the next villages habitants also? kill, destroy, slaughter...steal this, steal that..thats your solution, its disquised as "right" and "wrong"..its hidden with a "cause"..for both sides. how will it end foxer, this hunt for terrorism, do you even think it will end?..will it STOP terrorism? its just another vendetta..nothing more, just in a slightly different scale.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Stealt Eagle @ Mar. 24 2002,11:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, it could actually be cool to have a negative post count, something like -2400<span id='postcolor'> according to sandman it would make you into a woman..

Revenge,What's soo bad about it ? according to someone, 9-11 WAS a revenge...you tell me whats so bad about it...

earlier games..such as cannon fodder (i loved that game) had enemies in masses, to kill was fun... later games as for example doom...igi...and more, its just more detail, but the killing in masses is still there, to kill stupid enemies, targets... ofp follows the same route, but its realism in terms of your own character takes it to a new level..you can die so fast and suddenly, unexpected..you value your life. games evolve..in a few years from now, we are playing games that makes ofp look like cannon fodder, games where you feel a loss when a buddy dies, games where killing some enemy is a difficult task...games where enemies feel more alive, and show pain when shot/hurt... to compare games to movies and books...id say games has the most potential to be made "anti-war"...they can leave a deeper impression in you. i remember deus ex, where i had to decide whether to shoot my boss or a prisoner...its a game, but it forced me to make a moralic decision..a book or a movie never lets you do that...so the potential in games is extreme, if well done. imagine a scene where a paniced enemy soldier takes a hostage, a child..knowing that the game is programmed to punish you for your actions would you do wrong..if a witness can report it..what you do?...is killing the enemy so important, do you dare to lower your gun after a 4 hour game without any saves?..decisions..... what if a soldier that you had with you since the start and who did a lot for you and has got to be a important part in your team gets shot and hurt...like full metal jacket scene? potential is huge. to make a anti-war game is very possible..but it demands a LOT from the teams.

those 19 men who started this with papercutters and hijacked planes must be laughing there asses off when they watch this from where ever they ended, there paradise or hell... 19 men, might end up with the deaths of millions of innocents...thats one hell of a ratio..19 quilty: 1000.000 innocent? dont say you are fighting terrorists...you didnt catch osama, you made it harder for him..nothing more, the "war on terrorism" is just a joke...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 24 2002,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">since usa is the agressor what is this then? 4th of July?<span id='postcolor'> of course..now you realise old Osama DIDNT do it!!!..it was SADDAM all the time!!! darn..and after saddam..who did it?...its easy to run around and fuck the planet using the same excuses...easy for usa anyways... but if you want to play that game...sure wobble, sure. 9-11 was not a act of agression (if we assume iraq did it), 10 years of santions with hundreds of thousands to millions of dead, mostly children..what is 9-11??..nothing, selfdefense? i can tell you a story that fits well into this wobble.. do you know the word "vendetta"? its used when you take out a bloody revenge...but it has a story behind it. in italy (i think, not sure) there was a town with that name, some 400 citizens... one day a woman got accused for stealing a egg, she denied doing so but was not believed, the one who has the eggs stolen took a chicken from the womans family... the womans family (family A) went to the chicken thiefs family (family B) to get the chicken back, but they didnt get it and instead they beated up a member of family B. fmaily B was upset and beated up members of family A..and after a while someone died.. more killings started, in revenge...in the end nobody was spared, women, children, men...other families got into the fight, in less than 2 months the towns habitants decreased from 400 to some 20, the rest fled the town or died. you already had your share of killing for 9-11...somebody will revenge that, you know it...and you revenge back...you know that also. does the dead from 9-11 come back when more die, more innocent get killed...and more, and more...for what? what do you think you can win wobble?...you wont give up, neither will your enemies...you just decimate eachother and never find peace.. iraq IS at peace now, not at war, not agressors...they are struggling to survive under the heavy sanctions...usa WILL be the agressors when they attack, you are a fool if you cant see it..or a blind patriot, dont know which would be worse.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 24 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, could be better to attack itty bitty Saddam, mr. wobble look at a map.. see all that water near Iraq? ever hear of a supercarrier? Â we could park a carrier just off the coast and fly off of it.. seems like a great idea huh?.. yea thats what we did in the gulf war... its a lot shorter flight from a carrier just off the coast then it is all the way from afghanistan.. plus even if we did want to use landbased AC.. we already have bases that we can use that are closer than afghanistan anyway (as seen during the gulf war aswell) so oil is not an issue.. neither is bases.. gee.. there must be something else the evil empire is wanting in order to spend all this money on those people... Â perhaps we want their souls <span id='postcolor'> didnt take long to turn this into politics... japan is/was the biggest giver of aid to foreign countries...not usa, doesnt matter tho. last time it was what..world vs iraq?, you used airfields in saudi arabia, turkey..more, you cant take of with a b52 from a carrier. in this coming war (it will come, for sure) usa will act alone, since usa is the agressor and will not be supported by un or nato...usa will for sure have what it takes to beat iraq..but carriers only wont do..a airfield in afganistan would come handy. i doubt saudis will support a new war on iraq, i doubt turkey will either, but im not so sure about it..forget about iran, they wont even let you fly over there nation..they "axis of evil" you know israel could support..sure, but would you fly over neutral countries to attack iraq?..its a act of war also...they have the right to shoot down your planes would they want so. afganistan + airfield there..perhaps, perhaps... dont forget that its a mess with politics and relations with the countries at the place... btw..afganistan has oil far as i know, they just didnt have the money/will to exploit the recourses. souls?..if you could make money of souls, i would not doubt it as a reason wobble...

we saw that we would have a 50 km bike march at wednesday, and we were reliefed as it seemed to be a easy day..only 50 km on bikes and then nothing else...it was like too good to be true... we wake up that morning, and i see the guy who sleeps closest the window turn all white when he looks out, he says that there's loads of snow...we all look out, and see a snowstorm, and a LOT of snow...then we think of that 50 km bikemarch... typical in finnish army (and most armies?) is that you dont ever change the schedule..what is planned will also be done, we all knew it, and the thought of riding bicycles in that snow was not a pleasant one... rumours started to go that perhaps we could go with skiis instead, people started to feel more relaxed...and the rumour started to feel as a fact, untill suddenly we get ordered to get prepared to get our bikes of 110 men who left to that trip some 50 of us made it, 30 cm snow and strong winds takes a lot from a man, and i saw people drop one by one...behind us came a tractor with a wagon + a medic who picked up the unconsious soldiers and checked who faked and who did not...the ones who faked had to continue the trip from where they quit later on. i remember feeling my skin on my legs break, i felt the blood pour down my legs and into my shoes..the pain was extreme and i was convinced id have huge scars in my legs....of course all that was imaginary, my legs were fine, but they didnt feel so at the time. when we got back...we got a new rumour of what happened... one guy was supposed to have gone to some officers and told them to cancel the bike trip, out officers had thought of changing it to skiing trip instead, but felt that this soldier went out of line and changed back to the biketrip just to teach him a lesson...and we all had to suffer cos of it. military....you do as planned, and you dont complain.

we were standing in formation outside and our leutenant walked around and tried his best to make us smile or act un-soldier'ish so that he could punish us.... he came to me and said - Jääkäri Häikiö (rank and my family name)..you have your dick in the wrong side of your pants!! i answer -sir leutenant, jääkäri häikiö is LEFTHANDED..sir!! he fell down on the ground laughing, all the guys around me were laughing a lot and the only one still standing and keeping a stone-cold soldier face and attitude was me (wasnt easy, trust me lol) note: i am left handed, and if a left handed man so desires he can get a rifle made for lefthanded and get to carry it on the left side, he will also get other items for left handed use... after he stopped laughing and wiped of his tears the leutenant told me to warn him the next time before i joke

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rpc007 @ Mar. 23 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if thats true, i still bet that that .1% is more then your country gives<span id='postcolor'> puts an end to the "we feed the world" discussions where you (not you, but some americans) claim to just give and give while WE do nothing...more money from my wallet goes to the poorer countries than of your wallet... anyways. that place had an error..it said "finland defended against russian AND german invasion"..finland was allied with germans (atleast i think i read it there.so tired..bah) other cool(?) facts...the dutch are the tallest people in europe by average a typical swede has 2.3 children (dont ask how..)

too bad it doesnt mention the amount of Saunas finland: 5 million people, 2.5 million saunas..... also bicycles and holland...25 million bikes, 15 million people (or so?)..if anyone lives in holland id like him to explain how the hell you can get your bike back when its leaning towards the wall at amsterdam trainstation and buried behind hundreds of other bikes parked on it......

finland..5 million people 2 persons per computer..means average of 2 computers per home finland or sweden was the nation with highest internet usage per capita...read somewhere.

exactly my point wobble. casualties counted after what could have been in there, same as what could be in a cave or a mudhouse...etc etc its the same thing...we cant see, we cant know...we can only quess, and we quess for a lot higher number than in reality..9-11 is just one of many many examples of that. i am not saying that us is lying, so you dont need to blindly defend your nation...im only saying that your army is quessing, just as we were quessin about the twin towers..

aaah....good points. now, the first estimate was TENS of THOUSANDS dead in the towers, then it gradually lowered into "only" 3000 (give or take some) its not any different in a war...casualties are always expected higher than in reality...

i quess its more like that if you see 10 muzle flashes come you ASSUME that there's another 30 behind them, waiting for someone to die so they can shoot thru the small opening of the cave... it really does not matter much, makes no difference. but as far it goes to experience, always the enemy bodycount has been OVERestimated...lies are usual, propaganda reasons...normal, not only usa does it, so dont turn it into a flame usa thread please (goes to wobble as well as others). if govt say 500 enemies died its possible more like 100 enemies died, a soldier reports what he thinks, a officer reports what he supposes looks a little better on paper, a general then adds to that just a little more...by the time it reaches the media there's been many hands adding to those numbers....the final adding comes of course by the last one holding the papers...a body count of 15 own and 100 enemies doesnt look as good 500 enemies towards your 15 dead. when a mudhut/cave gets hit by a large bomb and vaporizes the bodies...the true numbers will never be known, any number is just a quess...and its not unlikely to quess a little higher number than is realistic... few conlficts show accurate numbers of casualties....not even ww1, the death toll varies by a few millions....

its so normal in war....id say casualties on enemy side are as average 3 times less in reality, just quessing tho...but even in battle of brittain english pilots reported 2-3 times more kills than they really got. a dog or donkey that gets killed is counted as 2 enemies killed....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nordin dk @ Mar. 21 2002,12:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why was it deleted, what was offending in it?<span id='postcolor'> id like to know it too... i think that placebo takes 9-11 very seriously (rightly so, of course)..but i think that thread had not gone too far down the sewer yet, not worth to delete imho speaking of....eh....what, football?...boring, i agree with who ever said its a boring game.

well.....they should have warned not to fill it to 100%....after a few hours in below -30 (was -35 i think) its solid ice....they need a new warning label btw...doesnt swedish chainsaws have label like "do not attempt to stop moving chain with hands" i wonder who genious was the reason for that label?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 20 2002,15:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This tip is from a U.S. canteen: "For water only. Do not apply this (plastic) canteen on open flame or burner plates." I always wondered why is it that they are assuming that a person who would apply a plastic bottle to open flame is actually capable of such feat as reading?<span id='postcolor'> huh uh...i did that. i was stupid enough to fill the canteen with water 100%, so the water didnt move when we were out walking...this made it to freeze.....so when i got thristy and wanted to drink nothing came, i used a knife to break the ice but it was completely frozen..so then i tried to heat it over a open fire, succeeded only melting a part of the canteen but the ice didnt melt...... i still have that canteen....its buckled cos of the water that froze (is expands..) and its partly molten perhaps this belongs to military stupidity?

the longest actual word you can read backwards and forwards and stil have the same meaning in it is finnish Saippuakivikauppias /saippuakivikauppiaS Soapstonesalesman /namselasenotspoaS

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gorgi Knootewoot @ Mar. 20 2002,11:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm, yes. When i say it in Dutch, i can do it  <span id='postcolor'> yup yanks and brits will never pass it! heheheh..we rule!