Oligo

"Ofcourse it is, it is an attack on society itself. On the other hand, its a part of their job." Killing a cop cannot be any worse than killing any citizen. Otherwise you would be implying that cops are better human beings than normal people. Definitely not so, but they are equal. Some extremists might even say that when you kill a cop, you kill a 'combatant', since cops have willingly accepted the risk of death when joining the force (just like soldiers do). Thus, killing a cop is actually not as bad as killing a 'civilian' bystander. According to this reasoning, armed robbers are 'combatants' also.

"They got caught, because of greed. It started out as a means to solve economic problems. They noticed that it was easy and that they were good and continued to do robberies. It ended with three gang members getting caught doing a hit of their own. They ratted the rest out." Aww... Greed, the one thing to bring down empires. The way I see it, they should have done just a few good paying jobs and then disappeared. You don't have to have THAT much money to live very nicely for the rest of your life. But they got greedy, so they lost the game. "And yes, they were very disciplined and very smart. If they had stopped in time they would probably never have been caught. And unlike recent gangs they didn't attack civilians in the banks. They even let young and weak of heart leave the scene so they shouldn't suffer from the stress. In a way, they were Robin Hoods. Except, they kept it all for themselves, ofcourse." They definitely weren't Robin Hoods, having purely selfish motives. But they definitely weren't from the worst lot either, having a lot of discipline and good ROE. All this shows very neatly how vulnerable our society is to disciplined, decisive action. I'm surprised why so few criminals use such methods. "Killing a police officer is really ugly, I think. Just had to add that, because my "joke" was little untasteful.." Killing a police officer is exactly equal (no better, no worse) to killing any human being. Besides, using sniper cover doesn't mean you actually HAVE to kill the cops. You could just pin them down and/or make them retreat. The problem is, though, that the police are not (AFAIK) trained to realize when they are outgunned and outmaneuvered. So some cop lacking any common sense might just believe blindly into his authority and not give up, even when faced with overwhelming opposition. There are not many options but to wound or kill those cops. All this is of course just theoretical discussion about the 'war' between the cops and the robbers.

So what happened to the Military Gang, do you know? Did they get caught or did crime pay? It seems to me their use of firearms was disciplined, although their actions were... dubious.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ April 03 2002,10:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey! That sounds like a good idea. I'll give it a try today!<span id='postcolor'> Oh, come on, theoretically of course!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ April 03 2002,08:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It would be amusing to see someone rob a bank using 12.7 anti-air mg I support your theory oligo, the picture just is so amusing.<span id='postcolor'> Well, they'd probably attach it to a truck, drive to the front of the bank and slaughter all the people inside the bank and in the nearby buildings with fire from the 12.7mm baby. The way I see it, most of the criminals aren't THAT stupid and thus they would want to maximize their chances of succeeding in the crime. Therefore, always better armament than the Joe on the street... One thing I'd like to know, though: Why has sniper cover never been used in bank robberies or such crimes (AFAIK)? I mean, a high power 7.62mm hunting rifle with a good scope is one of the easiest weapons to get. You send most of your men in to rob the bank, but also have some snipers with spotters located nearby. If the cops come, the snipers can shoot at the cops and cover the exit of the bank robbers, before displacing themselves. What comes to mind is the American Bank incident. The robbers were very well prepared, wielding assault weapons and body armor. Why the hell didn't they plant snipers in overwatch positions? Then it would have been impossible for the cops to surround the bank, because it is hard to do that while eating fire from concealed sniper positions.

All this got me thinking: What if everybody had guns at home? Would the criminals just decide that it is too dangerous to do home invasion and stop? I seriously doubt it. Let's consider why all those gang people in U.S. have illegal AK47s, like Wobble said: Since you can get pistols legally, you have to escalate to (illegal) assault rifles to counter the threat of (legal) pistols. In Europe, most armed crime is done with pistols, since they are enough have the edge over the general populace. So what if the citizens were wielding assault rifles? The criminals would probably get frag. grenades, LAWs and AAMGs... The criminals apparently follow the +1 strategy. They are always a step above the legal status. However, as escalation proceeds, more and more situations are resolved with the use of deadly force. So a higher level of armament means more deaths per incident.

I don't think carrying a weapon automatically means that you're looking for trouble. I've carried a folding knife in a concealed sheath sometimes and so far the thought has never even crossed my mind to draw it in anger. I have gotten into fist fights when carrying the knife and even lost some of those fights, but never did I even think about pulling the knife. But if I ever end up in a situation where somebody pulls a knife on me and attacks, at least I have one to draw also. On the other hand, I doubt that all the people have the kind of self-restraint I have, so carrying a knife generally might mean you're looking to use it (hard to say). But since we cannot ban knives (it would be ridiculous), I for one will not be outgunned in an extreme situation I will probably never face.

I think it is neat that cybernetics is advancing as it is. Especially since our bodies are nowhere near perfect, even in the context of biological life (our organs suck in comparison to other animals). What I would like to use neural interface for is driving a car. Can you imagine what it feels to drive a vehicle with the power of thought alone? The car effectively becomes your body, air surging past your composite carapace, your tires throbbing with the minor bumps on the tarmac... Or better yet, imagine flying a fighter plane in direct neural interface. Pure joy.

No offence, but that Moonlight Ride was the biggest load of crap I've read for a while. It just about manages to contain all sociological cliches we have: drugs = 'joints' = bad sex = bad parents = always right = good god = loving heavenly father = good boys = irresponsible booze = bad Voi bläägis.

Did you know that all information in 'did you know?'-posts is made up? (Now that's a paradox for you, people.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 28 2002,08:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well since many (though not all) of the palestinian "people" who coordnate and set up the bombings (the ones that are not just some lone random act.. of which there are many) are from arafats "party" or whatever they call it.. then he has direct knowledge of them..<span id='postcolor'> Come on. Timothy McVeigh or whatever his name was, was a republican. So you are claiming every republican leader knew about his planned action? I don't think so and the same goes for Arafat. In the middle east, the politics are so SKEWED, that there are factions within factions within factions. So it is entirely possible, that the leader of some faction do not know what the people in some sub-faction (maybe looking to overthrow the leader of the faction with their actions?) are doing. Furthermore, how do you know what Arafat is saying to the mobs? All I have seen are the ocassions when he is on some press conference talking about peace. The information about him inciting the mobs is entirely relayed by the Israeli intelligence sources to the media. So the enemy is claiming that he is inciting the mobs. This info might be true or it might not, but at least in a court it would be dismissed as Hearsay. So there is no proof that Arafat doesn't want peace. But there obviously are numerous subfactions in the palestinian organization, who do not want it.

Well yes, must have been Su-25 if it happened in Afganistan. It's funny, though, when I think about the picture: I'm pretty sure it WAS Su-27, because the tail assembly is very different between those two planes. Maybe the picture wasn't from Afganistan, but it sure had eaten a missile into the tailpipe. Or maybe my memory is just failing me and it was Su-25. Whatever....

No offence, but there are no countries where the starving people come first. The government always gets their limos and salaries and whatnot, even if some people are starving on the streets. This includes Iraq, other middle east countries, african countries, Russia, but also U.S. and E.U. countries. Thus is pretty useless to get worked up on this particular escapade of mr. Saddam. Everybody does it.

This reminds me of a picture of a Su-27 in Afganistan I once saw. It had eaten a Stinger into one of the engines (which was completely trashed), but the pilot had just flown home, because the armor plating between the engines had spared the other engine. Pretty robust, eh?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 26 2002,21:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">is that a female? what is she (in civilian clthes) doing there? <span id='postcolor'> I think those guys are from the Rapid Deployment Force branch (you can tell from the newer batch uniforms they are wearing). So I'm guessing that those guys are practicing controlling disgruntled females trying to take over the guard post. But it looks to me like whatever she says, those guys will do, because she has the magic thing down there in her pants.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ Mar. 26 2002,17:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to be in the forest when in the army is nearly poetic, dont know but others but finland has a very beatifull and harsh nature...its uglines makes it so nice, you hate it just as much you love it. anyways..to fire a 120 mm mortar with the highest "charge"!!!...its presses ones helmet down, blackens the vision, empties the lungs and brings the taste of blood into your mouth...after a minute or two firing them its like to be on drugs...and then after the firing is the moment of silence, the body is shaken and everything is calm..and your listening to hear the first detonations at the distance, to be within a mortar company was good, very nice memories...plus we got to fire big bombs to large distances without being insulted as the artillery guys are heheh<span id='postcolor'> Actually during army time I learned to like finnish nature so much that I still spend weeks every summer trotting around lapland toting a bergen and sleeping in a tent. It's really nice (and no officers are bitching at you). Firing the mortar with maximum charge is indeed an 'experience'. Especially if you're one of the guys holding the front legs during firing (loader or director). And very especially if you forget your ear muffs. Then the firing sound really blows your mind (and ears). It's like getting your ass kicked by a professional boxer.

Well, living in the barracks is almost completely extremely ugly. But when you get to those exercises, well, there is much beauty in there. What I'm talking about is the nature that surrounds you. Anyway, it seems our army has been kind enough to post some pictures in their website: There are some troops from Pori Brigade parading around (probably thinking how much it sucks, parading that is). There is the 120mm bitch we had to tolerate. Here are some poor recruits firing it out with their rifles. This is the patch of the mortar troops. Silly isn't it? These people are showing what all soldiers are constantly thinking. Â This is the mine every grunt learns to hate, because we have to carry them around as punishment and otherwise.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ Mar. 26 2002,12:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not only are we collegues within our military branches..but i also feel that you did your duty somewhere near where i was...i was in Oulu, hiukkavaara. did you also spend a month in the north oligo?..on that huge mortar/artillery festival?..they have it every second year.<span id='postcolor'> I served in Pori Brigade. The territory around there was pretty much like they have in the last picture in the first post, give or take a few species of plants and maybe a bit lesser amount of altitude variation. But of course I spent three weeks in the north in the artillery/mortar festival. Only difference is that I did it during the winter as opposed to your doing it in the summer. So yes, sun going down between the nice hills (tunturi). The cold grasping you even more when the sunlight dies out. The horizon illuminating once and a while when an indirect fire barrage stikes the target. The beauty of the white-hot shrapnel arching into the sky. And when your mortar fires, the intoxicating smell of cordite filling your nose. Hugging the fire, trying to suck in as much warmth as you can, while you can feel the cold air sucking it out of your back. And the heavenly feeling when you can finally close your eyes and catch a few hours of sleep, totally ignoring the stench of half a platoon of men crammed into a tent. The fireplace glowing red hot in the blackness, you're alone although you can hear the breathing of the service buddy next to you... The army is a cocktail of extremely ugly and extremely beautiful things/feelings. Like you said, have to be there to know it.

I don't know what kind of festivals you have been in, but I doubt you'll experience the feeling of a combat webbing eating your shoulders, the way your rifle feels in your hands or the sound of an artillery bombardment in the background in a music festival. Then again, I've never been to a music festival.

The last picture reminds me of all those exercises we had when I was in the army: A group of tents, lots of wet grass and wet trees, rolling terrain, total overcast. If you add water endlessly pouring from the sky, the feeling of your damp clothes sticking to your skin, the coldness seeping into your bones, the water sloshing in your boots making you feel really icky, the thought 'this sucks more than anything has ever sucked before', the blowing wind chilling your wet hands, the combat webbing eating it's way into your shoulders, the ten centimeters of water on the bottom of the tent, eyes drooping of the lack of sleep, nasty hunger raging in your stomach, the way your rifle feels like it's the thing that has always been missing from your hand, the smell of rain and damp undergrowth, muffled sounds of artillery bombardment in the distance like thunder.... Got to stop, I'm getting a flashback. Â

I think all these things are going to go the way of the hollow point bullets: For use only against the nations own citizens.

Ralph, when you're referring to 'so much defensive mechanism' I'm assuming you are referring to ear muffs, gas mask (these are tucked in the assault vest) and PAGST armor. If you look at the pictures of U.S. troopers in the news (russians carry much less BTW), almost everybody is wearing PAGST armor (=composite helmet and a kevlar frag vest) and a tactical vest (which definitely has in it ear muffs and a gas mask). They're also carrying loads of other stuff. I don't know what you think, but I have personally carried all this stuff around in the army and it didn't limit my movement all that much. So I can't really see the pain ray being used in combat engagements against equipped foes. Maybe the cops can zap some criminals with it. Whatever.

Yeah, people, knock it off. Let's bash some country instead! That's always so much fun. Somebody find a news item highlighting the stupidity of some country and then we'll just let it fly. Of course the people from the country being bashed should defend their beloved father/motherland to the death. Let it rip! There haven't been a bashing thread for a couple of days now...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 26 2002,09:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how effective is a soldier if he has to walk around wearing a wire meshed vest with power source, ear muffs, a gas mask, and a bag of some agent to "de slime" something? plus all their usual stuff.. Â hehe, good targets.<span id='postcolor'> Eh, Wobble, soldiers already walk around with a combat webbing containing (among other things) ear muffs and a gas mask. Also, if you're wearing PAGST armor, adding a thin wire mesh to that doesn't add any significant weight. The power source can be a small one, enough just to give power long enough so you can shoot the doofus using the pain ray. To de slime something, pick up sand and throw. Oh yeah, also, poor soldiers who have to lug around these miracles of new weaponry. The way I see it, they weight way more than the countermeasures to them.

All these weapons are really fancy, but all of them can be protected against quite easily, if you know what to expect. EM pain beams: Wear a mesh of wire weaved into your clothes with a low level current going through it. This is a Faraday's cage and it block EM waves. You could turn it on when you see somebody pulling out a pain beam cannon. Noise guns: Good ear muffs (these can block a field artillery piece going off! and self discipline should be enough to block this. Stink bombs: Use gas masks. Slippery slime: Find out what it is and develop a counter agent OR throw some sand on the stairs. Both work. Common to all these counter maneuvres is that you can activate or put them on only after you perceive the threat. So you don't have to impair your hearing for example before somebody is actually firing a sonic cannon.