python3

haha, always a pleasure spqr, i see u got to my post b4 i edited it. I felt it was not the right thread for religion considering the attacks, but i will post again if i have time in the war on terror thread.

best way to stop terror, stop western intervention is the ME. That means war and democracy spreading and support for secular rulers. Time to leave our countries be.

first off, my condolences to the victims of the tragedy..... kinda makes you think about iraq. This is such a big thing on the news here in the west, but 30-50 people dying in these blasts occurs several times a week in that poor country. pretty tragic.

Doubts Surface on Iraq Raid Toll apparently there was a battle, but not a sbig as the gov't would have its people believe. no bodies found when US soldiers arrive. even the spokesman retracted statements and said it wasnt a major incident.

I'm still convinced the Iraqi government is a US puppet. Â I don't find democracy working if the people didn't have much education than just the "Qu'ran". In the beginning they'll agree on the implementation of the Sharia law.. "YEAH SHARIA LAW! NO MORE SADDAM!!! THANK YOU AMERICA!" one year later.. "I declare a fatwa! Sharia law SUCKS!" Year after year the people will demonstrate against such laws.. resulting in lots of angry mobs rioting the Iraqi streets. It is best to set up a totalitair regime and re-educate the Iraqi people with other stuff than just "Allah is great, live for him, love him, die for him, if not then you'll go to hell and you can forget about having sex with 70 virgins". who the hell is ever gonna issue a fatwa against islamic law? Its kinda contradictory. How do you know the level of education in Iraq. first off, most countries in the ME are not theocracy but secular dictatorships. Islam is not taught as much in schools as you would assume. Islamic education in arab schools is basic at most. They get that from their family, surroundings and religious schools. And FYI Iraq had one of the best education systems worldwide before Saddams wars. Most of those people are still alive and well. Even if that was the case and people only knew the Quran, it would still constitute a democracy as long as the people chose the leader. If thats all people want to know, then its their country, their choice. No one ever said western culture was gonna bloom in the ME as a result of democracy. Democracy is just a system of gov't. not the lifestyle. Might i remind you that these are muslims. Over 90% of the population are muslims. That stuff you just said about "Allah being great" etc. is at the core of our religion. Belief in one all powerful God. That is why muslims always celebrate by saying Allahu Akbar. No better sayings in our minds. No muslim in his right mind would ever forget any of that just because they learn secular knowledge (science, math). Its easy for you to write this because maybe ur not muslim or you are a secularist, but muslims think differently than you do on the topic of their religion. What do you think saddam was a religious dictator? nope the complete opposite. Most of these autocrats are secular rulers. They oppressed the religious groups, but people with freedom now turn to them the most. Like i said Islam is on the rise in the ME. Maybe the war on Iraq/terror is a good thing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4339511.stm hmm.... wonder how much valuable information those 11 year olds and seventeen year old girls must have had on the insurgency. Is it just me, or is there something seriously wrong in detaining women and children who have harmed no one. The last time i thought about tthe subject i thought people who committ no crimes are innocent and therefore should be spared imprisonement. I wonder how many pro-war would love their 17 yr old daughters fondelled by 4 drunken soldiers. Sound pleasing? i would shoot the f****** if i got the chance. On to denoirs point on democracy.... I think you are quite correct. Democracy might spring up much to the US's pleasure, except heavily anti-US govts might appear. Too long have the people and the gov'ts there had differing views. Us will be in for quite a shocker if its dream of democratic ME takes place. I know that where i come from, the secularists and coptics actually support the current gov't cuz they kno that the day we get democracy the muslim brotherhood is gonna take over. Its the islamists who push harder for democracy. Thats the non violent way to push their agenda. Like its been said "US-good for democracy, good for Islam "

common front..... Iran, Syria 'form common front'

what can they do? I mean that gov't was elected, and Bush said if it were told to get lost they would. Dunno if they will overthrow the gov't, but that would lead to a nationwide revolt

best to discuss in private so fitnah is not public

yeah i agree it cant be measured so quickly, but so many news organizations and people on many boards do seem to think so without thinking about the fact that many people might not have voted if it wasnt a religious obligation or if it was forbidden. Frankly i dont think it will survive 20-30 yrs. that is my opinion. I also would not want it to survive. I am not for democracies in the ME. but thats just me. No prideful benefit here, because i never mentioned being right and never engaged in a discussion here about the elections. i dont think it has too much short term significance either, in fact i really dont see too much significance in i at all as a result of sistani's fatwa.

i honestly think the only reason all the shi'ites voted was because they were under a fatwa to do so. Sistani made it a religious obligation to vote. Its not really a "success" for democracy. If he had issued a religious declaration that it is forbidden to vote, most would not have voted. If anything it proves the power of the clerics in the ME and the power & rise of the religious parties. If all ME countries were to hold elections, it would be the religious parties that would win cuz the people have tried secular rulers etc.

the beating and oppression of women is unfortunately something that is widespread around the world. Id ont quite remember but in the US every 3 minutes a woman is beaten. Keep your ignorant and stupid remarks to your self if you are not educated on ME society and the islamic religion. You'd be surprised to find that most muslim women dont wish to be the "free" women of the west. Oppression has many forms. Just because western women dont wear veils doesnt mean they are not oppressed and just because muslim women do, doesnt mean they are oppressed. As for beatings, its a worldwide epidemic.

yes, lets not forget the fact that 90% of the world muslim poulace is sunni. It would not go down very well with all of them. You can expect retaliatory attacks against shi'ite and kurdish minorites in neighboring arab countries. Not to mention an influx of foreign fighters to aide their sunni brethren. Besides baphomet is right. If you kill a terrorists family, will the terrorist stop? nope, he probably couldnt be happier for their family as they get a spot in paradise. You have to undertsand, this life means nothing to them, it is the afterlife that is key. You fight to live and they fight to die. Dont underestimate their zeal and willingness to win. They wont backdown. Unfortunately the US made the mistake of invading their country.

well without the US becoming a terrorist state by killing innocent people on purpose, the only real way to defeat the insurgency is to get support from the "liberated" Iraqi's. If they are not on board then this war was doomed to begin with. Some must understand that democracy is not what everyone wants. If the religious parties in Iraq win the "election", the country will look a lot less like a western democracy and more like an islamic state, which most Iraqi's according to a poll posted here actually want.

kinda seems ridiculous that all of his "top aides" keep getting captured and yet he is nowhere to be found and his organization is nowhere near being destroyed.

well, if the US is forced to withdraw and the Shi'ites take over and a whole civil war begins with war crimes etc., i think it would turn into a wider ME conflict between Arabs and persians. Most of the Arab world being Sunni with small Shi'ite minorities will not take the The Shi'ites power move in iraq cuz that will serve as inspiration to their own minorities. It will be 1988 all over again.That or Iraq will split up. either way you look at it the US will have failed. Iran next?.............hahahaha, i really dont think so, not unless the american people dont learn from their mistakes.

Take it with a grain of salt if you wish,but what the hell is happening in the city?Displaced Iraqis are still not allowed to go back into the city,the US deathtoll climbs steadeldy at every briefing now at 55,humanitarian convoys are still not allowed to enter the city,Red Cross claims the situation is dire and thousands of civillains still lack the basic necesities. Either this is completely inacurrate, or we have very few reporters saying anything truthfull about Fal. today. Â Quite shocking if it is accurate. oh, give it a few weeks and they will be back just like in samarra. For now it is hard to believe since the US is still there.

as bn880 said, great post ronin!

Saddam supported the families of the suicide bombers, Just like Saudi-Arabia, and all "friends" of usa in that region. Why isnt saudi-arabia attacked on the war on terror? Saudi Arabia isnt democratic too.  didnt most of the terorists of 911 come from Saudi Arabia? War on teror, lets go  and and Ace, if you then dare to take your gun to defend your country then you are a terorist too. i heard on a tv program that initially there was a multinational team picked for the attack on 9/11. Bin laden then said no and picked his own team made up of saudi's. the reason was it would cause a big split between the US and KSA, what he always wanted. smart bastard was right.

Its not about the policies of one governement or another. Russia's policies are very different from the US's but they had Beslan and the US had 9/11. Its about a clash of cultures. Its how we in the west live that these Islamofascists (for lack of a better word) despise. Why else was Van Gogh butchered? Why Iraq, well I think they used Saddam for his money and weapons, and Saddam used 'em because they're disposable. Both sides benefited. i beg to differ. I think certain policies have led to conflict. To say that it is because they hate how the west lives is rubbish. What are they gonna do? convert the western world? get real. Enough of this freedom crap already. not too many people in the middle east give a rats a$$ about democracy and most dont care how anyone in the west lives,as long as it is not imposed on them, kinda like iraq nowadays. sure there is a clash of cultures, a pretty big one, but that has yet to be the leading cause. They always address specific greivances in their tapes etc. and none of them are that they hate freedom and democracy. its an insurgency to combat US attempts to control the entire region. Van Gogh was murdered because somone could not handle the shit he was spewing out. Nobody used saddam for his money because these dictators dont support powerful organizations. Why would they fund and arm a movement that can strike anywhere in the world at a time of their choosing. These groups are more powerful than national armies. Look what the arab world could not do, but hezbollah did. they kicked israels a$$. time to wake up to reality.

heh, has anyone ever considered that the US and allawi would probably be condeming the attack on fallujah had it been saddam bombarding it the city. Oh how the tables have turned. The ironies dont stop do they?

heh, yeah i wonder who is to blame for the next al q strike?

Very interesting satire, did you think of this yourself, or is this something that many people are saying? Â hehe, it just occured to me when i was reading over the posts about 100,000 civilians killed in this war and 2x the number of civilians killed by the US than terrorists. Sad but true. How ironic can things get?

yes in lebanon, and also in egypt on the border with israel. they are just border forces. i think both groups number less than a thousand. no major widespread force like we see in africa etc.

What about the Middle east if they plan on sending Peacekeepers maybe one day here to you know either Iraq or israel/Palestine whos military command would it be in? Dont tell me its the US or Israel  I don't think the UN will even decide to sent "peacekeepers" to the middle East because it would not be in the interest of many contries of the UN. i dont even think many of the middle easterners would welcome them either, foreign forces in the middle east are not appreciated by the people.