maxqubit

Very nice! It applies to practically everything, be it technology, knowledge or e.g. wealth. So if you start to realize you will never reach a point at which you can 'relax and sit back' (because 10 seconds later things start to slip out of control again, techonology advances yet again, and you have to 'get up and keep up') you are ready to experiment with letting go. The 'less is more' thingy. So you buy a console because with that you get 90% of the experience for 10% of the price. That is why i said that you need to be a very dedicated gamer if you want to play e.g. Crysis ... most gamers would like to play Crysis now but simply can't afford to be THAT dedicated (family, funds, time, you name it) ... so they have to go for the more 'relaxed' option of e.g. waiting for a console 'port' of the game. But that has nothing to do with 'dumbing down'.

I'm sure the hack/mod 360 scene would embrace ArmA2/360 and its modding very quickly (as some guys did with Elite) Unfortunately modded 360 is probably out of the question in relation to XBL (risk of banning and stuff) ... but as a 'playground' it could be very intersting:) Atm, i have no modded 360 and i'm not intending to go mod (but i would like a mission editor:)

You would indeed be utterly stupid not to buy it for your $1000 gamepc in which you invested multiple hours (or is it days, weeks maybe) of dedicated patching/tweaking/googling ... go ahead any day LOL well if you really have that much trouble with a PC then you are indeed not cut out for it Once you have things up and running a PC isn't much trouble at all I guess you just don't have much experience with it or maybe you've had some bad experiences. Exactly! (check bold text:) Once you have this, have that have v1.08 installed (eagerly awaiting v1.09 and things like that) And, yes I GAVE UP on pc gaming. Mind you i had once a MONSTER 3D card (to play Quake), back in the old days. Don't be lazy and ASSUME i have no pc knowlegde. I have enough, more than enough. Enough to know pc gaming won't ever change and a single person will not 'win' the ever increasing hw upgrade death trap. As soon as you buy a piece of hw, it is junk cause 2 months later something new/better comes along. Now consoles give you some rest with a fixed specs (also benificial for devs imo) So i'm not anti-pc gaming. I just want my ArmA2/360 ... and i don't need pc-guys saying 'consoles are bad for games', that is just plain nonsense. If you can prove that electrons in Consoles behave different than running around in pc's (as in, they don't follow the commands coded in c++ or whatever, as in 'Hey, i am an electron in a console, i dont want to do THAT, that is for pc, this is a console, we do things different here you know') i will: 1. Agree that it is better to go pc 2. Award you the Noble prize for a remarkable discovery

Would you say games such as flashpoint are made for casual gamers? …hmm. No, i don't say that perse. But for BIS to make a living they must sell some copies, and a few thousand hard-core nutts are not gonna pay for all their salaries and stuff. So, i suggest the socalled dedicated following of BIS wwould loosen up a tiny little bit and f*cking EMBRACE a good cosole 'port' and see it as a kid brother in the Flashpoint Universe. If there is ONE THING i have never understood, it is the UN-love for Elite within the 'community'. A F****G disgrace. So let me make clear ONCE AGAIN: - I don't want any dumbed down shit (can be done) - I would like ArmA2 on 360 (can be done) - I would like a mission editor of some sorts (can be done) - I would like to see DLC (like add-on/mod/missions/campaign/vehicles ... you name it, which, technicaly CAN BE DONE thru BIS/MS!) What is wrong with that picture???? NOTHING!

You would indeed be utterly stupid not to buy it for your $1000 gamepc in which you invested multiple hours (or is it days, weeks maybe) of dedicated patching/tweaking/googling ... go ahead any day. But while you are googling for some inexplicable driver 'issue' i might be playing PES2008. And when ArmA2 is released on PC and 360 we will both still have the game on the same day:) Now 'googling' to understand the ever increasing complexity of the pc might seem a lot of fun to you. I personally like to game. Just yesterday i lost a couple of hours to changing the gfx card, eliminating a 'faulty DVD drive' and stuff like that, that is AFTER i understood the problems, which took another bite. Now DEDICATED gamers might be interested in PC's as a platform, but CASUAL gamers should stay far away from this ... Do you really think CASUAL gamers understand ArmA v1.00 to v1.08????? ... imho they would give up after a solid 2-3hours or so:)

Partial 90% that is. Any game launched at release of the next-generation will face difficulty. Console gamers don't have unlimited funds either!! That's why 2008 is perfect. DON"T slip again BIS (and CM i might add!)

Which planet is that? And ArmA1 is a fail? How come? Btw, OFP was pre-xbox remember. World changed A LOT since MS decided to go xbox and with 360/XBL they have a winner. And do i have to remind you of the console port of OFP which is Elite? A great 'port' only frustrated by: 1. CM/BIS split up 2. Launch in same month as 360 (talk about bad timing) PC is perhaps the biggest platform, but that is just fake, cause everybody has a pc. If you talk dedicated gamers i think you must look to consoles. 1 x 360 = 1 x dedicated gamer. Consoles work out-of-the-box and that is what the mass wants AND needs. I play and enjoy Bioshock and PES2008 ... CoD4:MW and Mass Effect are coming, not forgetting Ace Combat 6 ... i let Halo3 slip btw ... now did i 'waste' more than 30 seconds on hardware/software/drivers/tweaks issues ... NO!!! And that is a very, very big argument in my book. PC gaming is good for folks with too much time/money and dedication ... i won't bother for pc gaming anymore. ArmA1 was my last outing (until i discovered my then 200$ 7600GT was broken, specially bought for ArmA that was, took 2 months to get a new one ... worse than RoD on 360 i might say) - dedicated 360 gamers talk about release dates - dedicated pc gamers talk about hardware issues (Crysis is DX10 and stuff like that ... who gives a f**k? On 360 we only ask 'When is it coming?') Well enough rant ... i'm back to 360 with PES2008 and Bioshock waiting to be played:)

If that was true it would imply 1 thing: ArmA(1) ... not bothered by a console 'port' would be: 1. A masterpiece 2. A massive sales success because of 1 3. Without any faults (because we all know,that 'consoles' are the evil cause of all bad things happening to games) So, hey, is above true? 1. Is ArmA(1) a 'masterpiece'? 2. Is it a massive sales success (and with that, not needing the poor consoles 'ports' to generate some minor extra cash)? 3. Is it still in ermmmm version 1.00? Now if this was true, i could go along with the 'no-console-ports' argument. Why would you do console 'ports' if you didnt need the cash? But hey, now it comes back to you pc-folks. You just don't spend enough cash on ArmA to let BIS make a living? You really, really, really should do much more for your beloved ArmA than just a string of complaints, etc. If you don't want console ports, well be prepared to pay $160 for ArmA i.s.o a lousy $40. Just hand over your money in return for Bis not making console 'ports'. But, no way the pc community is THAT dedicated:)

True!

I prefer PES2008 over an 'soccer mod'

You seem to ignore the simple fact that there are gamers who don't consider a PC a 'suitable platform' for gaming in general. I don't want to sit in front of a monitor with a mouse and keyboard to play my games. I consider it much more fun to sit in my easy chair in front of my 81cm HDTV. Grim Exactly Grim!!! (I consider a decent pc a device to type just this post, and do some boring Excel stuff etc:) And Heatseeker rightfully admits Let me make that as 'A decent pc is ALWAYS expensive', cause, let's be fair, history is on my side. Otoh my current pc is 'decent' enough to play good old OFP flawlessly:) But the question still stands. Is ArmA/pc (after nearly 1 year) a succcess in terms of sales? I would like to know (nbr of copies sold, etc.)

Yeah, but THE question is, can BIS live without the console(s) version? (What are the sales stats on ArmA/pc anyway? in the 10k's, 100k's ... ehhh the OFP milestone 1Meg?)

TBH, i belive in a ArmA2/360 but have severe doubts in a PS3 version. Imho PC and 360 are quite similar to develop for + you have the knowledge of Elite which gives you nearly copy/paste for controls and XBL ... but PS3 version???? Egoistic perhaps, but i could do without the PS3 version:)

Exactly. It's a bit of both IMO. They try to make the game appeal to the largest audience possible by bringing it to multiple platforms and making it simple. Often neglecting all but one platform. Of course it's got nothing to do with hardware components in the 360, it's just a stripped-down PC. Of course I'll blame them. I'll hate them forever if they do that. My PC games work out of the box. Only difference is that they need to be installed, but that makes for faster loading times. If a game doesn't work 'out-of-the-box', then something is wrong. Patches improve the game. And Xbox 360 games get patches too. I'd much rather play a game on a good PC than a console. Mainly because of the controls. And modding. Seems like everything is settled then:) (and again, i understand pc is THE WAY if you are into developing mods and/or making scripts because you need a keyboard/mouse ... but to actually play a console can very well fit the bill. Once i was a mouse/keyboard junkie, but now i like (the comfort of) the 360 controller)

Not all maps in ArmA have that :p Look here, the fact that you CAN replay (not perhaps in the same session, but in the next session or so) is, when you think about it, a real number 1 gameplay breaker ... plain and simple because you are allowed to take risks you'd NEVER take irl. E.g. flying a chopper. Irl you don't go 'Hey a chopper, let's hop in to fly around' but games allow you to do just that, even the most hard-core simulation games ... ... if you truely would be in the 'Curch Of Realism' than the first rule would be '1. When you are dead you are dead' ... and what would follow would be not a different game, but a totally different gameplay, because you would sh*t your pants to even go out in the open ... a sniper would become 1000x more threatening and your heart would beat like crazy just by the thought of 1 single sniper lurking on the map. Now, because you probably can't sell a 'game' with this gameplay (because who'd want to 'play' it) it is not made. But that means your flushed 'realism' down the toilet with it. Well if I was that obsessed with realism then I wouldn't bother with games. I just find that arcade action from the likes of Rainbow Six Vegas gets boring fast. I like a decent amount of realism, I don't want everyone to have the magical ability to see around a corner without exposing them self. I don't want an automatic aiming system or anything like that. I just want a game to depict reality better than the likes of Battlefield or CS. Obviously there's limits with how much realism I want, I don't want to die for real :rolleyes: You think the fans would be happy if ArmA 2 threw away the realism? I don't care that much for ArmA2 on the 360, because I don't have a console. I just don't want the PC version dumbed down because of it. Too many good games were ruined because the PC version got dumbed down with the console version - Deus Ex 2 being one of the ugliest examples :( No, it's utter crap. It's going in the direction of having a built in wall-hack :p So you agree there are limits ... now, everybody draws his own line, and your line is not my line (and vice versa) The idea that 'good pc games' were ruined by 'consoles' is just bollocks. They were ruined by devs/publishers with $$$ signs in their eyes, it really has nothing to do with the components used in a consoles which, esp in the case of 360, are exactly the same as in an good pc (only without the driver/tweak troubles, but we've the RoD, thank you M$) So blame the devs/publishers and if ArmA2 is 'dumbed down' BLAME BIS!!!! (not me mate, not me, i want as good a game as you) I play 360 because that works 'out-of-the-box' and and games also works 'out-of-the-box'. I don't have the time, money and focus to 'beg my pc to play a proper game'. It is like having a car, you turn the key, it starts, you drive ... you don't want no tweaking, patching and stuff just to go to work. A car is a tool to 'bring you from A to B', and the 360 is a tool to 'play games' ... if you give a game as a present, for gods sake give the console version, not the pc version, that only leads to troubles.

Not all maps in ArmA have that :p Look here, the fact that you CAN replay (not perhaps in the same session, but in the next session or so) is, when you think about it, a real number 1 gameplay breaker ... plain and simple because you are allowed to take risks you'd NEVER take irl. E.g. flying a chopper. Irl you don't go 'Hey a chopper, let's hop in to fly around' but games allow you to do just that, even the most hard-core simulation games ... ... if you truely would be in the 'Curch Of Realism' than the first rule would be '1. When you are dead you are dead' ... and what would follow would be not a different game, but a totally different gameplay, because you would sh*t your pants to even go out in the open ... a sniper would become 1000x more threatening and your heart would beat like crazy just by the thought of 1 single sniper lurking on the map. Now, because you probably can't sell a 'game' with this gameplay (because who'd want to 'play' it) it is not made. But that means your flushed 'realism' down the toilet with it. Relative to the 'When you are dead you are dead' rule, the 3rd perspective of the Vegas 'cover' system is just a very mild gameplay element. Edit: But, hey, i'm looking forward to ArmA2/360 (and OFP2/360). Of ArmA2/360 i hope it will have at least the same quality as Elite had, and that would mean a.o. good interface, 'lite' mission editor and very streamlined XBL support. Top that of with possible DLC and who knows 'mods by DLC' and i think i will spend countless hours in that universe.

Oh yea, the amazing realistic cover system that let you see clearly around a corner without actually sticking your head out. Sorry but that's about as arcade as it gets! I was talking fun mate, as in FUN! Realism is only fun for some time. My life is realistic enough in itself. I like realism in games, but i'm not gonna join the 'Church Of Realism'. Yea but seeing around corners like that is just ridiculous IMO. Respawn/restart when you are dead, now THAT IS realistic. Wowie! It is a game man, it is for fun.

Oh yea, the amazing realistic cover system that let you see clearly around a corner without actually sticking your head out. Sorry but that's about as arcade as it gets! I was talking fun mate, as in FUN! Realism is only fun for some time. My life is realistic enough in itself. I like realism in games, but i'm not gonna join the 'Church Of Realism'.

The last 'crap' i bought was Bioshock. A true mindless arcade shooter. The 'utter crap' before that was RS:Vegas ... how they dare to invent the fluid 3rd person 'cover' system. Those devs came directly from hell i would argue. Ppl should be banned for live if they play that game. Fun? Games are not intended for that. Games are work, you have to work very hard. You need a pc, a mouse, a keyboard, a desk, a lot of time AND money. Know your hardware, software, patches, buglists, tweaks. Know all current military tactics, know all zillion keyboard commands, know how to script your own missions (by spending countless hours in the wiki's of all kinds), better still, you have to become a 'modder', the highest rank in gaming you can achieve. You can spend years with just one game. It is hard work i tell you ... but it is worth it. You have this feeling you really achieved something. Fun? What are you talking about.

Imho any game should focus on its strong points. ArmA should focus on SIMULATION (as realistic as possible, without forgetting the 'fun'/game side) ... SIMULATION is per definition non-arcade so i would argue for ArmA (and OFP2) to forget the idea of adding a arcade setting. Ppl on pc don't want that, and i don't want it either:) (and for arcade there is already a lot of competetion, so why bother anyway)

Just at this very moment a good example. The PES2008 (360) has just been released. I'm at work but friends already downed it and played it and giving the 'first impressions' Ok, one might say, that is normal ... yep, but you have to realize that they talk just gameplay. No word on 'it doens't run/install' no words on 'how many fps', no words on 'what with this security stuff' or 'which mirror can i get it' .... No, just download, play and have fun (unless it is 'utter pants':)

The ease of downing/playing demo's on 360/XBL is so beyond anything on any other platform, it is just fab 1. select demo 2. background downloading 3. play demo A good demo will do wonders (sometimes it even becomes a hype as in CoD4 mp beta) and as Grim says 'everybody will take a look'. It is a great way to show your game, and i'm sure OFP2 will come as a demo too

Another reason why a 360 version is 'good'. I don't have to understand this thread or even (in ArmA) a whole Forum ... ... believe me, i have tried to understand it but alas, i'm too old and have not enough time to become a 'rocket scientist', this 360 'Ring of Death' thing already gives me and my clan a headache:) (40% failure rate, would you believe it .. well MS got 1 billion in reserve to help us out here:)

Great post. But remember with Elite, BIS was already onto something good for Xbox. BIS needs to focus on the matter of DLC (downloadable content, even 'BIS Approved' mods would be possible:). And they would need to look into making usermissions TRANSFERABLE (if MS allows for such a feature that is)

What is the name of that animal which hides its head in the sand???? C'mon, CM releases a teaser, the have as they say the biggest CM team ever working on OFP2 and they hint at an 2008 relase on all major platforms ... and we (incl. BIS) should act like 'nothing to think (in some cases worry) about' ... I think CM makes their intentions clear. To be seen if CM pulls it of, but neglecting or 'think nothing of' attitude is imo not very smart. I for one look forward (i.s.o. the 'does not look like anything' attitude) to whatever CM will come up with. I think it's the maxqubit. You didn't quote the whole thing. I quoted the 'attitude' (towards OFP2)