Haadur 40km

Hi all,

Started following these boards when PR:ARMA was announced. I’m completely amazed by the quality and variety of the mods/addons you folks make. I didn’t see too many 40km maps though, and a the same time, was pondering a thread on the realitymod boards suggesting someone make an ARMA island that incorporated many of the PR:BF2 maps. When I looked around for someone to get it done, the only person in the room was me :-(

I’ve been interested in Iran because of all the posturing and missile testing going on there recently, so I decided to make a fictitious island roughly modeling the geography of eastern Iran to incorporate the Afghanistan border and gulf of Oman. I figured that would also be a suitable background for many of the PR:BF2 maps (no worries, not going to replicate/copy any PR efforts, just hoping to create areas that have similar emersion) I used Google Earth to find a representative location in the US so that I could have access to 1/3arc second DEMs and higher-resolution orthorimagery. I found a surprisingly good match in southern Nevada.

Considering how complicated it looks, I was able to get it up and in-game pretty quickly using Opteryx’s tutorial. I have had no performance issues whatsoever. I tried it first with a 4097 sat_lco and mask_lco and then kicked it up to 20480. I noticed no difference in performance. I ran absolutely smoothly at 10000m visibility (prolly easy to do with no objects).

I’m posting not-so-much as a work-in-progress (although it is), but because I’ve had a really difficult time finding answers to questions – (I search using Google, these boards and armaholic). So I thought I’d post up some questions…

I’ve seen some discussion, but can find no concrete information:

1) Has anyone successfully created/imported a 40960 sat_lco?

2)If so, did it cause a performance issue (don’t think it would based on the discussions I seen on how the VR engine works, although I’m sure the pbo would be enormous)?

3) If so, was it worth the effort (even with some pretty good software and a decent computer, it took me hours to get the 20480 map put together)?

4) If so, can you point me to any detailed documentation available on how it was accomplished?

I’d appreciate any recommended sites, etc. you find helpful with your island development efforts in general. I’ve seen some suggestions, but those have usually been to older, stale threads – I realize often the information is still good, but I don’t suppose it hurts to ask for more. I’d also appreciate any suggestions and advice you might have on this project.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks again for all your efforts…good stuff.

Some screenies (updated 2012-10-14):

http://s387.photobucket.com/user/jus2sayhey/library/Haadur

Nice work so far. Now the hard part: objects, installations, roads :)

This is gonna rock if you finish it! :)

A map this size is a big project to take on!

Good luck!!!

@IceBreaker: Yeah, no doubt. So what I’m thinking is that I first need to texture, then do roads, then objects. Is that correct?

If it is, then shouldn’t I be sure of the size of my sat_lco (and therefore, my mask_lco) before I start texturing? I’m really not happy with the 20480 sat_lco and want to be sure 40960 is not an option (or not worth it) before texturing what I’ve got.

@Enad: With a cheerleader like you how can I not finish it :-)

[but its gonna take some time!]

Looks sweet, good luck with it. :)

And yes, Enad is quite the cheerleader.

That terrain is awesome man!

Still laughing at the spoiler Mother...

Thanks ebanks, nothing on the A-Stan stuff. Your Baghdad map is a real motivator. Looking forward to the PR labors.

This is looking very good

Looking good so far!

I'm not sure if you'll be able to manage 40960x40960... I'm fairly sure Photoshop has an upper limit of about 30000x30000 or thereabouts... Not sure about "The Gimp"... standard Microsoft Paint might also be worth checking...

My project is 20480x20480... I fooled around with higher res to see if the increased size of file was worth it for the extra detail... I managed a 28672x28672 file in Photoshop... barely.... took a helluva long time to manipulate and save... I abandoned the idea eventually - 20480x20480 is pretty hefty as it is...

I vaguely remember some discussion in the old Australia Island thread about enormous sat_layers - I think they were a 4096x4096 heightmap project too, so similar to yours? - can't remember what size they used but the screenshots were impressive... might be worth searching - this section I think - for those old posts and having a read thru...

B

Well, if grid is 10x10 with 1024 that means 10240x10240 meters of terrain. Usually 8192x8192 texture is good enough, but 1:1 or even higher (such as 16384x16384 texture) ratio is much better. So that might be a problem with the size you're dealing with.

Nice. Not that I don't like Afghan maps - but it is something different. Looking forward to try it...

And good luck!

The terrain looks great! so I really hope you continue with this. :) It does look a bit.. dark though, but that might just be the pictures. :) But yes, great terrain!

Thanks all for the support.

@Bushlurker, I read the Aussie Island thread, no technical discussion on the 40960 map.

The consistent theme I get from the 40K island threads is that they never seem to be completed or get released. I then tell myself that these boards are filled with people who eat this stuff for breakfast and while a 40K island is 4x the work of a 20K island and 16x the work of a 10K island…its just an island, and if I get it to a respectable point in terms of quality and completeness (talking textures and roads) I’m banking I’ll have no problems getting folks around here to help me get this out the door (note that I expect it to be high quality and not just about getting a big map "done").

Over this week I’m going to try two experiments. I’m going to try to process a 40960 file. It’ll just be 4 copies of the existing sat_lco stitched together with Imagemagick. If that works then I’ll make a small island and sat map with a resolution equal to the 40k/40960 combo and see if the visual improvement I’m looking for is there. If I’m able to process the 40960 file and the visuals are there, then I’ll see if Visitor and BinPBO can process the file (If they don’t choke, my calculations indicate it will take more than 8 hours to get the file imported and packed).

If all that works then I have one more hurdle with the file: I can break it up into 16-10240 sections for purposes of editing. Unfortunately, while I have access to fairly high resolution orthography, the images are WGS84 and I need them UTM WGS84. I haven’t found any ready-made conversion tools and I don’t know if I have the wherewithal to develop an app to do it on my own…in Photoshop I was able to rectify the 20480K images to the DEM manually (yeah, it took forever) but with Photoshop file size limitations (you’d think a $1200 program like Photoshop would not have those limits) I’ll have to solve the issue through some file processing application.

If the experiments don’t support the 40960 sat_map, I’ll get busy on the textures using the existing 20480 sat/mask

You guys making fun of me.

ONTOPIC: Can't wait to see this with some vegetation and objects :)

Be sure to add plenty of details. Lots of car wrecks and what not. :D

the images are WGS84 and I need them UTM WGS84. I haven’t found any ready-made conversion tools and I don’t know if I have the wherewithal to develop an app to do it on my own…in Photoshop I was able to rectify the 20480K images to the DEM manually (yeah, it took forever)

You should be able to reproject to any datum plus rectify in most GIS programs... Global Mapper for sure, also probably MicroDEM - which is free. I haven't much experience with either, since I use ArcGIS - but that's heavyweight software and totally unnecessary for such a simple job - I just use it 'cause I got bought a copy a few years back for work, so I actually vaguely understand some bits of it...

Theres a Global Mapper demo available - I think you download the demo, then ask them for a "trial key" which gets you fully functional including exports... After that (if I remember correctly.....)

Load DEM - if it's already georeferenced it'll go to its real coordinates - if it's already in a projection it'll be in that...

Go change the overall projection - "UTM WGS 1984 zone xx" is probably what you want

Load the sat image - if its carrying a projection it'll be forced to display in the new one, if it isn't - it'll also be displayed in the new projection... it probably won't be georeferenced so it'll just be dumped "somewhere in the world" (Fake coordinates and display option)... You probably won't see both images on screen at once at this point - they're probably literally on opposite sides of the world... don't panic!

Re-rectify - you'll see the DEM and the image gridded and side by side - then you just zoom in and start laying control points - click a precise spot on the DEM - then the exact same spot on the image... "this spot on A corresponds with this spot on B"... Sometimes you can get away with points in all 4 corners and a couple in the middle - other times you might find yourself laying hundreds of control points... (do the corners first and take a look - just in case that's really all you need - laying unnecessary points can make things worse instead of better - fortunately you can delete point pairs anytime)... basically it'll "rubbersheet" the image to correspond precisely with the DEM.

When you're done and happy - use the vector shapes tool and make a precisely square outline - place this so it frames the area you want...

Choose "Export" and choose to "use the vector shape to define the output boundaries" - it'll output bitmaps of your sat and your DEM which are now precisely overlaid - using the vector shape like a "cookiecutter"...

B

Bushlurker! This is a perfect example of why you guys are awesome!

OK, yes I have MicroDEM, 3DEM, Wilbur (actually grew up in the town where the guy who wrote this lives…and it’s a really, really small town…just trivia). Couldn’t get it to work with any of them (memory); I have access to Arc 9.3 (all their stuff actually, even version 10), but I hesitate going there because it belongs to my employer; wasn’t thrilled about downloading a demo for Global Mapper but was getting ready to when it dawned on me: I also have Daylon Leveller, it too did not load the 20480 overlay (memory), BUT it basically works with rasters and doesn’t care about projections (however, it understands them)…I just told it to resample my DEM from its original size to a 4096 x 4096 representation. I don’t care about the projections! It’s a fantasy map...for a game! I just got hung up with projections because of the files and tools I was using…

So the alignment problem is solved – YeeHaw!…I likely wouldn’t have gone there if you hadn’t given me those suggestions (and directions)…thanks very much.

Now to see if Imagemagick can stitch four 20480 images into a 40960 one. I’ll report back.

Daylon Leveller!!?? We drool over that here y'know! (well - I do anyway)... Pricy but impressive - a weapon of choice for heightfield editing... currently trying to convince our Geog department that they really need it and their first copy should go to me!!! - failing so far...

L3DT is a good alternative - handles 4096 heightfields, understands projections, reasonable editing tools...

However it seems you've got things well in hand... I wouldn't overfuss with Arc... its all analysis tools anyway - none of which you really need...

It's worthwhile experience having fussed with the projection/georectifying/control points thing anyway - it can be handy for other things... think about it - basically it "rubbersheets" bitmaps to fit... that means any bitmap... roadmaps, sketchmaps, photos - anything can be nailed down to realworld locations... that might come in handy when you get to the roads stage, for example - if its a realworld area there'll be a realworld roadmap...

You can see a few pics of another example HERE - the original Marines 1944 invasion planning map for Iwo Jima - georectified to the 90m DEM - means you can place things right down to the last pillbox - or, where the Yanks thought they were, anyway... :)

A occasionally handy technique for the early terrain designing stages...

ps - theres a dedicated section for Terrain Editing which is the best place to search for info or ask specific questions...

B

@Bushlurker: Thanks for the heads-up about the terrain section. I had seen that at some point, but apparently only “favorited†the OA section and then wondered if I had seen the terrain section or if my ancient mind was once again playing games with me. I’ll use that section for my future questions.

I had hoped to have the 40960 sat map in-game by now. After much time, effort and a significant computer upgrade I was able to create a 40960 sat_map. Unfortunately when I attempted to import it into Visitor tonight, Visitor crashed immediately. I know Visitor is working because I am able to import the old 20480 sat_map just fine. I can open the sat_map with Gimp, so I believe the sat map is not corrupt (although it is 3.7GB). I will post the issue in the terrain editing section.

One more off-topic comment: Your Iwo Jima work is gorgeous…pinning that map to the DEM had to be helpful. Thanks for the tip. In the case of Haadur, while I’m using real-world DEM and imagery, everything else - cities, roads, etc. will simply be abstracts.

Hello all,

I was finally able to get the 1 pixel per meter sat map processed. I'm resuming work on textures and objects now. This project is taking a very long time, but I still intend to "finish it" :p

Here are some screenies:

http://s387.beta.photobucket.com/user/jus2sayhey/library/Haadur

Pics look nice, hope you get it finished, I will enjoy using it, that’s for sure.:).

40 kms and 1 m per pixel sat map? whooa... it will take some time but it looks really nice so far... and if you're interested in BF2 like maps you should take a look over here... saludos!

Thanks for the link Robster. I had no idea how much time would be involved; based on the pace of progress so far, completion is still several months off. At any rate WIP screenshots have been updated: http://s387.beta.photobucket.com/user/jus2sayhey/library/Haadur

Such a large project and it looks quite good judging from the wip pictures. Looking forward to flying over this landscape with anticipation!

So I continue to make visible progress and I am happy with the results. After a few years of learning Visitor, Max3Ds, height maps, texturing, etc. I started putting objects on my terrain. I've availed myself of the community tools such as World Tools, Road Painter2, ZGM Visitor Objects and advice from community members (particularly Bushlurker) and I have just completed adding objects (beta pass) for an entire 1 square km of my terrain. However, the math scares me : I've spent four weeks, 20+ hours per week to complete that 1km beta pass.

40km x 40km = 1600 sq km

subtract the water (Glad this is not ARMA III :butbut:) and I have 1360 sq km of land that need objects.

1 month per km x 1360km = 113.3 years to finish! :cry2:

Oh well ... not giving up yet ... must at least get these areas finished:

Bushlurker Peek (peak) in the Bushlurker Range

The quaint village of Bush

The grand city of Lurker

The oil lands of the northeast (AKA Petroleum Fields Forever)

The Holy city of Kaow (AKA Holy Kaow!)

The famous port city of Garcia and its port Nada (aka Garcia's Port Nada)

Just an update.

Thanks,

Walker

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo316/jus2sayhey/Haadur/arma2oa2013-03-2022-33-56-94_zpsce432b48.jpg (121 kB)

Don't give up man. Its going to be absolutely epic when you do finish it!!!

It looks like this map will have everything that you could ever want in a map, so Im really looking forward to it even if it take you a year to finish.

Arma 2 is still a great game and I want to see this map in it!