Israel General

You talk about Hamas like if they were IDF's equal ... explosions made by Hamas rockets are like that explosion from Breaking Bad's famous scene (This is not meth!!) ! ,i even start believing that those rockets were just made to scare ,there is a huge difference between intentions and what's actually happening !

Great, if these rockets are so insignificant (tell that to my daughters that some rocket fragments landed next to their kindergarten's parking lot) just stop firing them and the IDF will stop its actions.

Palestinians see in Hamas the last defensive power they have,ofcourse they are using "uncommon" methods to surive !

Whatever organization that turns to deliberately killing civilians and children should be condemned and fought. Over all these years, they could have chosen to target only military targets, but it's always the unprotected civilians they love murdering the most. How dare you call that "uncommon" methods?

Sheikh Yassin was killed on his wheelchair near a mosque by a missile ! they most likely don't want to trust Israel's fariness after that ;)

That scumbag commanded the murder of hundred of Israelis, I'm glad the IDF managed to arrange him the meeting with his "god".

Yes,because they radars and satellites to send GPS guided missiles ...

as you want more proofs - seems you not have google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols_(London)

if you will call this fake too, i do not know how to help you to see that truth is not one 1 side, cause you denied what i said about my friends in London attacked by such guys,

people were attacked for holding hand !!! normal man with normal girl always show sympathy in Europe and it is normal than man shakes and hugs his woman, it is normal, but they were attacking for it,

my friend who lived and worked in London was threatened for having Christmass tree in window (normal in Europe)

there you go Xalteva

i posted before lots of links but you called them fake,

maybe you should not ignore that Islamists are dangerous and casue a lot of violence because they want to overtake others

simply you denied all what i posted "cause it was made by Christians" , such argument sounds Isalmistic like "he is not right cause he is Christian" , i do not care who filmed movies, i do not care if it was Jew, Arab, Russian, American, Christian, Atheist, i do not care, videos were showing attacks of Muslims on natvie European in place where those guys who made this live from our taxes,

why you not believed on attack on church while it was in TV, why not believed on attacks made by Muslims because they want to set Sharia in area (German TV, interview with policemen, which you called fake too)

if you would see man who puts acid on woman face you would also call it a fake ? hanging gays is fake ?

the same as this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html

why ???

why such radicalism is not 1% ?

such radical catholics among catholics are 5% or less, maybe 2%

in Islam it is 1/3, 40%

it shows how hard is to manage peace process with those who believe that "infidel must die"

peace can be achieved when other side doesn't question other side right to live, have own food, culture, property, language etc.

but they deny right to live of others - so how to achieve peace with them ?

why they not accept other human right to live and eat and wear ?

cause even orthodox Catholics i know accept that Jews eat different,

Jews i know personally also accept and have no problem with what i eat,

only 40% Muslims have problem and want to force us to obey Shiria, why ? why they miss basic tollerance to live peacefully and attack people like in France, when group of men attacked guy who was eating sandwich with ham, why ?

why such radicalism is not 1% ?

such radical catholics among catholics are 5% or less, maybe 2%

in Islam it is 1/3, 40%

You know that to compare two data, they have to be the same.

Around a third of young British Muslims favour killing in the name of Islam, according to a survey revealed by the WikiLeaks' publication of U.S. diplomatic cables.

A survey of 600 Muslim students at 30 universities throughout Britain found that 32 per cent of Muslim respondents believed killing in the name of religion is justified.

We are talking about a survey done only to 600 Muslim students. And I would also like to see how it was made. From that we can only say 100% sure that less than 200 people believe killing in the name of religion is justified ( they don't specify which ).

I know that in Poland, foreign immigration is really reduced, but how many Muslim friends do you have, with how many do you interact every day?

BTW Catholics in UK are a tiny minority.

Ok a bunch of unknown guys did 2 videos that haven't exceeded 42000 views in which they attacked people in the streets in the of Islam or whatever ! make of all muslims in britain a danger to the nation ?! what tells me it's not made by someone just for troublemaking ?

You remember that black guy in england who ,in a video was saying allahu akbar, after stabbing a guy in the street ? well,it appeared after that it was just a car accident and the black guy went to the scene holding a knife and claiming he killed the atheist in the name of Islam and the blood on his hands (not present on the crime scene) was just made using video editing tool ;)

I ask you for serious proofs from holy books proving that what they were doing is 100% legitimate,proofs that you can use against any muslim (since you claim that islam is the problem) !

And please stop accusing me of things,i havent said ... i didn't say your links were fake,but rather biased !

BTW I've just conducted a survey between my Muslim close friends.

None of them supports the Sharia nor killing in name of Religion ( and they are from Iraq, Senegal and Turkey ), if not they wouldn't be my friends.

Anyway, you got it, according to my survey 100% of Muslims are against the Sharia and killing in name of religion ( really faithful survey eh :rolleyes: ).

BTW Religion in UK:

I don't see why we are discussing vilas' fantasies about muslims ... it's irrelevant to this discussion ! he can go to forums dedicated to that,and he can debate with muslims,they will know how to answer him ! he has claims that only muslims can answer ... what tells me that beheading gays is an islamic teaching ? or punishing people for drinking beer or eating pork ? (this is a rhetorical question please don't answer).

look at these fucking zionists:

CNN's Diana Magnay "I think you can probably see there are lots of Israelis gathered around who are cheering when they see these kinds of Israeli strikes."

they are cheering when innocents get bombed by terrorist state israHELL

they are cheering when innocents get bombed by terrorist state israHELL

There are crazy people, everywhere, just check the last video from Vice News with some Jewish settlers saying all kinds of crazy stuff. In the same fashion I'm sure we will be able to find some crazy Palestine people cheering similar events.

I wonder something.

Before the creation of the actual State of Israel the Arab majority there lived in relatively peace with the Jewish minority.

Now we can see that with the support of foreign powers Israel is able to survive and defeat most of the attacks.

But in the next future, possibly not too far, they may not have that much support. And seeing how Israel Govs have spread animosity against the Arab natives from the region and all their neighbors, I wonder what future that State may have.

To give it some local color, let me quote a Bible's passage to illustrate the point:

They have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind

Guys,i am tired of this thread ! i give up the discussion ... feels like smashing a sandbag.

Have fun !

I really don't see this going anywhere. Both sides have crazy people in charge and in the field. I honestly think though that the current military Operation is making things worse for both sides. It is a huge mistake.

I really don't see this going anywhere. Both sides have crazy people in charge and in the field.

That's the quid of the question. And I can't see any good / fair solution.

Maybe if the International community step in with peacekeeping forces. But again, it was the International Community that allowed the creation of this mess. And one of the sides has strong supports in certain superpower. So I have not much hope.

I'm quite pessimist. Probably everything is gonna end in a terrible massacre of one side or the other, or even worst, both.

Are you serious? So in one map you have a little tiny minority of Jewish owned places and a huge majority of Arabs, and in the nowadays one you have Jewish filling a huge majority of Jewish land and a little minority of Arabs.

Funny thing is that if we took maps from the last centuries, and would look like the first one ( even with more Arabs ).

And you don't see anything obvious?

Look I have been trying to explain that over and over again, I'm fully aware of the large numbers of Jewish imigrants to Israel at those times. It's still doesn't prove that the establishment of Israel was a crime, and that claim of yours was the target of my arguments.

Well you use the same arguments as the ones who committed the genocide against the American Indians ( or the Australians natives ).

So how often do you say that the establishment of the USA and Australia was a crime? I bet not as much as you do about Israel (or not at all). Why is the difference?

So according to you, for instance would only be natural that Basques create a state and take the lands from all the north of Spain and all France. It goes back to even prehistoric times.

I don't rule that out, they sure have a case, and of course that's debatable.

So it's better to massively and illegally take another territory were a few of us have been living for thousands of years and create a state there to rule over the big majority of people who have been living there for centuries even if they don't want ( do I have to remember again the British Concentration Camps for Illegal Jews ? ).

If you say that it was illegal, the burden of proof lies on you. The Arabs have been offered by the world a state of their own in this land, and they rejected it. Why are you ignoring this crucial fact? And about breaking the mandate laws... I don't know why it's that important in your eyes but it's really negligable. Jews that suffered the Holocaust didn't give a rat's a** about the "law" of GB. Sue them.

You seem to have missed one thing, while rereading my post, maybe a parenthesis?

Hiding behind a parenthesis is cheap. That parenthesis was used to describe your view on how that "crime" was put to effect.

That was a metaphor. Which means not literally. Basically, the point was: Forget that you are an Israeli citizen for a second and check the cold facts.

Yes I was aware of that and my answer to you was aimed to show you that Kipah used as a metaphor for Israeli citizens is another demonstration of your shallow understanding of the middle east realities.

MistyRonin, I wish to explain why I spend so much effort to attack your statement that the establishment of Israel was a crime. Such statements de-legitimize people that live here (already 3rd generation). Such claims boost the motivation of terrorist organizations. Sorry that you won't respond to this.

----------------------------------

Seems legit!

https://mobile.twitter.com/caseysjournal/status/491282354778816512/photo/1

Israel's right for existence and the circumstances of its creation make too complex a dibate for me to get into, and I wish half the people who claim to or think they know a thing or two would do the same....

That aside, the ongoing conflict has generated some bad press for Israel for killing civilians. Sadly this fact is undisputatable, however most of the blame is unequivocally with Hamas for conducting their war using Gaza and its people as a strategic asset. Gazans know it, the world knows it. Storing missiles in schools and residential buildings, placing rocket launchers in densley populated areas, encouraging the population not to evacuate Israeli-marked airstrike targets and using Ambulances for sabotage purposes: none of it is any news, and yet while being widely known, it is still often ignored or casually overlooked in the media.

Reason for this being that no one expects better from Hamas, while at the same time Israel is being held to a higher standard. Sometimes even higher than that of other western nations: let us recall the 3,000 estimated civilian deaths of Op. Enduring Freedom in between 2002-2003; 7,000 (est) civilian casualties by the end of the major combat phase of Iraqi Freedom; The 280 fatalities in Pakistan by precision drone strikes. Dealing with militants who use population as a flak vest will generally result in people getting killed, and Hamas knows it. I think Marines should know that too by now.

Could Israel and the IDF have conducted themselves in a more restrained and less indiscriminate way? Probably. it's easy to hold fire. Would it provide a solution to the conflict or otherwise make any difference ? Probably not. With Hamas being what it is -- a terrorist organization -- and operating the way it does, responding to it moderately would probably only strech the same death toll over a much longer campaign. It's not that Israel is being careless, but rather Hamas being criminally unreasonable to both people of Gaza and Israel.

So how often do you say that the establishment of the USA and Australia was a crime? I bet not as much as you do about Israel (or not at all). Why is the difference?

Same reason we wouldn't bring up the Roman circus if someone had their pet lion kill someone. It was a different time with different standards, and there isn't an indian alive today who remembers being evicted from Boston, and who would really like to go back and live in his house that is still standing.

The Arabs have been offered by the world a state of their own in this land, and they rejected it. Why are you ignoring this crucial fact?

That's like saying that someone comes to your house with a gun and offers to give you half of your own house. And then you are an aggressive hateful invader for not accepting a violent quid pro quo that strips you of your property and rights without any negotiation or consent.

Why don't you read up on these 10 Myths:

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/10/

You will see that the wonderful statesman Ben Gurion planned to violently conquer the wonderful rump state that the Palestinians were being offered.

responding to it moderately would probably only strech the same death toll over a much longer campaign.

That would be a valid point... if the "campaign" had any achievable objects that could actually degrade Hamas' fighting ability. But it doesn't. Netanyahu is fighting a war for nothing. And in actuality the campaign is spread out over generations. Nothing is different now from Operation Cast Lead.

let us recall the 3,000 estimated civilian deaths of Op. Enduring Freedom in between 2002-2003; 7,000 (est) civilian casualties by the end of the major combat phase of Iraqi Freedom; The 280 fatalities in Pakistan by precision drone strikes.

Are you perhaps forgetting that the Iraq War sparked the largest anti-war demonstrations in the history of the human race, taking place in scores of different countries? Opposition to drone strikes has also been rather pronounced from where I'm sitting.

That's the quid of the question. And I can't see any good / fair solution.

Maybe if the International community step in with peacekeeping forces. But again, it was the International Community that allowed the creation of this mess. And one of the sides has strong supports in certain superpower. So I have not much hope.

I'm quite pessimist. Probably everything is gonna end in a terrible massacre.

me too, those 2 sides will not reach compromise,

thats why i was not joking with artificial island - Emirates could build it

other way hatred will cause bloodbath and other Arab countries may enter war and... Israel defend with A-bomb and we got apocalipse in globe

so UN peacekeeping forces may be the best, than elections in Isreal in which non-religious guys win and the same in Palestine (ideally eliminating most radical element), both societies (Jewish and Palestinian shoule wake up and do all to avoid

cause maybe this all mess is created by few percent of guys who want to provoke all-Arab states war against Israel , knowing it will be WW3 to make "apocalypse" ?

UN forces would be good solution, they would keep both sides from shooting

That aside, the ongoing conflict has generated some bad press for Israel for killing civilians. Sadly this fact is undisputatable, however most of the blame is unequivocally with Hamas for conducting their war using Gaza and its people as a strategic asset. Gazans know it, the world knows it. Storing missiles in schools and residential buildings, placing rocket launchers in densley populated areas, encouraging the population not to evacuate Israeli-marked airstrike targets and using Ambulances for sabotage purposes: none of it is any news, and yet while being widely known, it is still often ignored or casually overlooked in the media.

It's not that Israel is being careless, but rather Hamas being criminally unreasonable to both people of Gaza and Israel.

I have not once seen any evidence that after an airstrike the IDF have indeed found any rockets. Do I think Hamas is storing RPG's in some schools or hospitals? Yes I do but again I haven't seen as much as a hint of evidence. As for warning before airstrike or artillery attacks in civilian populated areas - How many times would any of us be willing to leave our own house before artillery / airstrike if they witness this on daily basis? I imagine many would get to the stage that it would simply be ignored and all that aside, what guarantees do the civilians have that they will be even allowed to move back to their houses providing they haven't been demolished by machinery or the airstrike itself?

I disagree and I think Israel couldn't possibly be any less careless than they already display. As of Hamas, I have to wonder whether the IDF would simply walk in to all Palestine had they little to no resistance at all

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

me too, those 2 sides will not reach compromise,

thats why i was not joking with artificial island - Emirates could build it

UN forces would be good solution, they would keep both sides from shooting

I don't think Israel would appreciate artificially isolated island and Emirates are too busy selling oil :)

As for the second line - I don't think there is as much as droplet of hope that the two sides will settle on some sort of compromise anytime soon and as such I think the UN should interfere in it. Its more or less UN's mess after all

Also - Even if the impact of outcome is questionable, it doesn't take longer than a single minute to fill up

( The New York Times ) F.A.A. Halts U.S. Flights to Israel

The Federal Aviation Administration instructed American air carriers on Tuesday not to fly to Israel for 24 hours, and major airlines canceled their flights, after a rocket fell about a mile from Ben-Gurion International Airport outside Tel Aviv.

All three United States carriers with scheduled service to Israel — Delta Air Lines, United Airlines and US Airways — suspended their flights. The agency said it would provide updated instructions to the airlines “as soon as conditions permit.â€

The disruption of air travel at the height of the summer tourism season highlighted the impact of the conflict in the Gaza Strip on the Israeli economy.

Can't stay for long so I'll just respond to that for now:

I have not once seen any evidence that after an airstrike the IDF have indeed found any rockets. Do I think Hamas is storing RPG's in some schools or hospitals? Yes I do but again I haven't seen as much as a hint of evidence.

UNRWA themselves condemned Hamas for placing rockets in a school (they have returned the rockets to Hamas personnel later on), and that happened twice. Other than that, not necessarily rockets, but see previous post for a twitter link, Hamas has placed its main HQ in Al Shaif hospital.

These are not RPGs, by the way, there are rockets that are used to target Israeli towns.

The hate will never end. No one can take back that a Jewish woman tried to murder the "oh so great prophet Mohammed", may he be praised in all his wonderful glory. Because you know, he was a heck of a role model....

( BBC ) UN's Navi Pillay warns of Israel Gaza 'war crimes'

Navi Pillay told an emergency debate at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva that Israel's military offensive had not done enough to protect civilians.

She also condemned Hamas for "indiscriminate attacks" on Israel.

( Al Jazeera ) UN to investigate Israel's Gaza offensive

A total of 732 Palestinians - the vast majority of them civilians - have been killed in Israel's 17-day campaign in Gaza. In the same period, two Israeli civilians have been killed by rocket fire into Israel from Gaza, and 32 Israeli soldiers have died in Gaza.

A bit weird piece of news:

( BBC ) Red Cross van attacked by civilians in Gaza

Red Cross officials announced a temporary "ceasefire" in two zones so that they could evacuate wounded civilians - Khan Younis and Gaza City's Shejaiya neighbourhood.

Paul Adams met one of the Red Cross units when they were attacked by local people.

To me its pretty clear that Israel wants to exterminate palestinians but they can't because the world is watching and so they have to resort to being a bully. Happens when you treat people like dirt and force them to live like animals and take away their freedom to travel, even have an existance or raise a family. You cannot build walls and box people in preventing aid and supplies from reaching hospitals and treat your neighbours like dogshit and then complain when those people are angry of course they are fucking angry they are fighting for their very existence. I don't support Hamas or any other terrorist faction but i do understand them and why they are always pissed at Israel.

Its Operations like this that just escalates the bloodshed, so what if a rocket landed in your garden, the UK was under attack from the IRA for many years, that didnt mean we sent in shock and awe airstrikes and bombed the living shit out whoever and killed hundreds of people causing more hatred and making more badguys because their loved ones who had nothing to do with it had been wiped out.

Its Operations like this that just escalates the bloodshed, so what if a rocket landed in your garden, the UK was under attack from the IRA for many years, that didnt mean we sent in shock and awe airstrikes and bombed the living shit out whoever and killed hundreds of people causing more hatred and making more badguys because their loved ones who had nothing to do with it had been wiped out.

Not during the troubles, but before... for instance the black and tans.

To me its pretty clear that Israel wants to exterminate palestinians but they can't because the world is watching and so they have to resort to being a bully. Happens when you treat people like dirt and force them to live like animals and take away their freedom to travel, even have an existance or raise a family. You cannot build walls and box people in preventing aid and supplies from reaching hospitals and treat your neighbours like dogshit and then complain when those people are angry of course they are fucking angry they are fighting for their very existence. I don't support Hamas or any other terrorist faction but i do understand them and why they are always pissed at Israel.

Its Operations like this that just escalates the bloodshed, so what if a rocket landed in your garden, the UK was under attack from the IRA for many years, that didnt mean we sent in shock and awe airstrikes and bombed the living shit out whoever and killed hundreds of people causing more hatred and making more badguys because their loved ones who had nothing to do with it had been wiped out.

Here Here.

Irony makes me wonder just how many people Israel has killed, through direct action or deliberate indirect action.

Anyone in any doubt about how Israel views the Palestinians needs to see this documentary :

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125423/