scrim

Amen. And a minefield that would dwarf the Korean DMZ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre Still not getting that the rest of Eastern Europe might not be on the same page about the brotherhood idea after, well, the Czars and the USSR? I know I'd probably have been living a rather wealthy life in Poland if it hadn't been due to Russian "brothers" forcing my grandfather to GTFO to save his life after the war. Apparently, the "brothers" didn't like Poles who had noblemen or independent Polish officers in their family. Or just common sense. Lynx: No. That's not how it works in the civilized world. We don't say "oh, you're bothering a regime, we're cutting you off from democracy, you've clearly had too much". And oh really? The pro-Russian council put in power by the Russian military and "led" by a politician who only received 4% of the votes in an actual free election, say they want to break off from Ukraine and join Russia? Why, how fascinating. While you're at it, can't you tell us again just why you think it's totally weird how former WP countries despise Russia.

On the one hand it's Fox, and on the other it's Best Korea. The latter is heavy enough for it to be very believable.

RT creeping through ashes to kiss Putin's feet after their unwelcome outburst of truth.

I can tell you exactly what those pictures depict Tonci: Not even a single BTR. Not even in the background. All the pictures depict burnt out/abused trucks. Amra: Yes, that's all very good. I agree, not swallowing the Kremlin official version of events whole with hook, line and sinker like you, does indicate that I am very naïve.

Call me crazy, but I yet again advocate the '38 borders, i.e. the ones that existed before the beloved Soviet Union decided to take land from Finland and Poland. And you forget that the Soviet Union did leave everyone else to deal with Hitler alone, and even cooperated with him up until the point where they had no choice but to fight him due to being invaded. And yes, silly me for having a "fetish" for democracy. We all know that real men take what they want without regard to civilization, laws, etc. Like invading a country because the people ousted your puppet, and threatening to nick their land. Sound familiar? No, no butthurt. I think you misinterpreted my post. Imagine it being spoken in your head, with a dry, bored and very unenthusiastic voice. Possibly overflowing with sarcasm. The utter ridiculous farce that has been the Russian behaviour in Ukraine (and on these forums) since the start of this is just as tragic and pathetic as it is mind blowingly absurd, if not even comical, and ambiguous. An invasion of what is obviously Russian soldiers with armoured vehicles, helicopters, etc. being referred to as "self protection militias", and at the same time acknowledging the invasion. The dramatic nonsense about "NAZIS, NAZIS EVERYWHERE" being used as an excuse for an invasion, which may or may not happen, or has happened. The agreement that will see the Russian troops withdrawn, and maybe not because there are as of yet no Russian troops deployed outside their bases in the Crimea. Or maybe there are, the Russian government seems really confused about the whereabouts of its army. The incredible danger posed by the illegitimate government in Kiev, which is dangerous enough to invade, but not dangerous enough to invade. The outrage about the political compromise that was signed between opposition leaders and the president, despite not being signed by the Russian diplomat involved. In all, it could have made for a very good comedy movie, if it hadn't been for the fact that it'd either have to be simplified, or left as it is, in which case the comedic value would be overwhelmed by the "WTF, nothing makes sense"-value.

Yes, we all know that really, Russia is liberating us all from Nazism in another Great Patriotic War. But all of us who don't support Russia's invasion of Crimea really secretly support the Nazis, because democracy, and that's why Putin undermining what little democracy exists in Russia means that we're all really just inferior to you. Admit it, that's pretty much what you think about us, don't you?

It is not viable to for Putin to claim Russian troops were attacked after he's really sent them in under cover. The Russians have acknowledged that they are in full control of the Crimea with their troops at this point, so provoking Ukrainian soldiers into attacking them there can't be used to claim an attack on peace keepers, and in the rest of Ukraine, there are no contested regions into which Russian troops could be sent and later claimed to have been peace keepers.

Which in my mind is exactly why the Western world should isolate Russia. Historically speaking, when a country is ruled by an aggressive dictator among democracies, the best way of teaching the citizens of that country not to let it happen again is to let them face the dire consequences of the actions taken by their regime, so that they will ultimately stop supporting it. It worked with Germany during and after the war, and considering Russia's/the Soviet Unions history of falling together like a house of cards when economically isolated by the West at the same time that they are attempting to boost their military capabilities, we won't even have to start a war. All we'll have to do is cut them off from the West, wait a few years, see them bicker with their Chinese friends, driving them West, and soon see Russia itself either remember its past and demilitarize, or collapse financially.

Hardly, this time it's different. This time the Russians haven't been able to cover up their direct military involvement even a little, and now they're even saying themselves that it is their troops, and it is they who issued the ultimatum. Hopefully the Ukrainian military will stand their ground for as long as possible, without taking extreme losses, like the Royal Marines did at the Falklands when the Argentinians invaded. Let Putin do whatever he thinks he can do. Let's just isolate Russia from the rest of the world, like during the Cold war again, and within half a decade, they'll be fighting with their "friends", like the Chinese and such so much that they are driven more to the West, whilst Russia descends further and further into an economic downwards spiral, or are forced to cut down on military spending so much they can't threaten their neighbours any longer. It's enough that deranged rulers in Moscow choked democracy and peace in Eastern Europe from the end of WW2 to the downfall of the USSR, let's not let that happen again at any price.

Ah, no mob like a lynch mob. No Lynx, none of those were about splitting a country in half, or outright stealing it. Forcing military leaders to swear allegiance to new, illegitimate sources of power instead of the central government. That's the opposite of preventing a civil war, which is what some have claimed Russia is doing.

Did you forget to take your pills recently by any chance?

There's absolutely nothing indicating that a civil war would occur. Russia invaded far before any clear signs of such a thing occurring were available. Just stop pretending that this is some humane help effort where your country is doing something good. It's simply an invasion of a sovereign nation, no less illegal than it was during WW2. The sooner you get around to accepting that, the better, because then one more Russian will have decided to face the fact that the Putin regime isn't a good thing to have around.

Yeah, except the West has yet to A, invade Ukraine, B, talk of separating Ukraine, and C, talked of annexing half of Ukraine. See the tiny difference there? Yeah, no, it's not crap. The moment we sit on our behinds and say "oh well, what the heck? He's just invaded a sovereign nation, the borders of which are recognized by the world, and is preparing to put a puppet in power, or outright annex it", as you are now, is the moment we start heading towards another world war. Will it be Putin who leads us there tomorrow? Not likely, but if we stop caring about flagrant violations of international law dictating the fundamental rights of democratic states not to be invaded at will by dictators and regimes, then those people will have learnt that they can get away with it, and that will lead us to a world war one day.

Excuse me? In Crimea, just below 60% of the people are ethnic Russians, and I don't even think all of them want to be annexed by Russia, or are even pro-Russian. As for the rest of even eastern Ukraine, please explain why everyone there would be pro-Russian? No, splitting Ukraine is not a good option. Just exactly what is it that WW2 didn't learn you about what ultimately happens when we allow dictators to go into other European countries and nick half their land under the premise of protecting their ethnic citizens? Here's a hint: It's bad enough when third world countries are at war with each other, or against first or second world countries. When first and second world countries are at war against each other, the carnage that such industrially and technologically capable states will cause nowadays is just mind blowing.

Forget it Yuri. He, like many other Russians have this inferiority complex where they see the Western world, with small niceties such as democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc. and feel so jealous they have to hide behind this mask of Russia being an awesome place that every neighbour likes if he's not a fascist, is exempt from international law because of general awesomeness, etc. to make up for the fact that they still live under a dictator. Ask maturin, he had a pretty good summary of it. Also, I'm feeling a lot like posting a picture of civvies in the Soviet Union gladly posing with the new occupiers, the Germans, before understanding what they were bringing to them, but have this nasty feeling I'd definitely get an infraction for it. So I'll just make this note: History shows no existence of a "photos taken with occupiers/good guy qualities of said occupiers" ratio.

Disarmed the riot police facing thugs with Molotov cocktails you say? Oh, I guess that explains this picture, that I didn't see until the 29th of January: http://i.imgur.com/AxYPkav.jpg (262 kB) That's riot police with shotguns. Throwing Molotov cocktails. 'Nuff said? Actually, I hope he stops at the even earlier borders, perhaps the 1938 borders? You know, the ones that didn't include parts of Poland (taken in cooperation with the somewhat right wing Germans) and Finland? Yeah, those things. And regarding "separation" (it's much more commonly known as annexation) sure, why not? Screw international law, screw any law, screw civilisation! Let's all just live like chimps, whoever is the strongest gets whatever he wants. That, but with nukes. Why not?

That's a very dodgy statement about something that is a relatively gray area to say the least. Please show me even one statement from the US administration of the time saying that they would waiver visa requirements for Polish citizens in return for Poland taking part in OIF.

As a TIR5 owner, maybe to be honest. From what I've gathered, apart from the other things, the OR won't need an IR camera like the TIR, which would make it far superior, as you'd be able to have a 1:1 head movement IRL/head movement in game ratio, and never have to worry about accidentally blocking the line of sight between the camera and the head mounted device, or have light distort the IR, etc., and thus lose control of where you're looking at any given moment. However, until then, yeah, TIR is worth it. I don't think I've heard more than a single TIR owner (in this thread) complain about it, or say that any of the more economic alternatives come even close to matching it.

Yeah, with some huge exceptions. Croatia declared their independence, and a minority was against it. In the Crimea, no one has declared independence, those who'd be most in favour constitute the majority, and the Russians invaded long before there was even anyone saying "ha, I said it first, so I'm the new leader of Crimea. That's how democracy works, right guise?".

Yes we are. Don't be childish. Putin is in the process of invading a sovereign nation, the borders of which are universally accepted. The current "leader" in the Crimea is not lawfully elected, and the "referendum" that you speak of has not even been proposed yet, so don't act like Putin has a crystal ball in which he saw it being passed and decided to act ahead of time to protect it. The overall situation is nowhere close to that of former Yugoslavia. And remember this: Whatever the outcome, history has always judged dictators and regimes that invade and annex recognized, sovereign nations during the 20th and 21st centuries to be regarded in disgrace forever after.

Yeah, I reckoned as much; You don't even know what annexation means.

I won't even bother regarding the very obvious Russian soldiers, it's ridiculous. The entire world knows what it is. Specify the latest time a Western country invaded and annexed another nation. Yeah, didn't think so.

No, that's not an invasion.

I am not, most people on these forums are not, nor are most people in the world stupid. There's a huge difference between just uniforms, and uniforms, armour, helmets, AK74Ms kitted up with the latest Russian military accessories, and all of this is worn by disciplined, military aged males. Don't pretend you didn't read what I wrote. It is a very serious crime to unlawfully invade, and under any circumstances annex a country.