nightsta1ker

I know what you are talking about. I fly RC helis too. Not the same ballpark as the real ones though. They have some very different behaviors due to size, weight and rotor RPM. Comparing flight behavior is a stretch at best.

Could we talk about it on Teamspeak? I am curious of what your opinion is so far.

Leftskidlow has a point about helicopter pilots. And I personally hated DCS Blackshark. For one, I guess I am just not an attack helo kind of guy. I probably would have been happy as a Loach scout pilot in Vietnam. That looks like my kind of flying. In any case to each his own. I am glad zaGURUinzaSKY is happy with the flight model. Clearly, though, he must not be a real heli pilot, because the flight dynamics are all kinds of jacked up. I don't find the flight model on expert realistic in the slightest. In fact, it's probably CLOSER to being realistic on the n00b mode because you don't have to deal with a ton of innacurately modeled difficulties that you would not see on a real helicopter. In any case... the rest of the game is alright. Fun even. I have been enjoying flying missions. I just can't get over how poor the flight model is.

More issues: With a new graphics card that runs everything well so poor hardware performance is no longer an excuse. First off, everything mentioned before this still applies. I just wanted to tack on some other things I find really irritating and unrealistic. Pedal turns... What the hell is up with the pedals? They don't want to work! Even with null zone gone and full sensitivity I kick the pedal all the way over and the helicopter slowly, lacadazically turns in whatever direction... Pedals on helicopers are sensitive. You kick that pedal (or fail to kick it in some cases) and you are going to be watching the world spin around you in a blur. The pedals need to be more sensitive. Alot more. Man they REALLY want to roll over. That stability thing I talked about needs to get fixed pronto. Control lag. Yes, there is still a control lag. Perhaps those of you not accustomed to flying helos, or even simulators for that matter, don't notice this, but there is a half second lag between my control inputs and the response. This would be a little more realistic in the heavy helicopter, but not the light or even much in the medium. There is also a weird relationship between the pedal and the cyclic. I cannot quite put my finger on what is going on because it is unpredictable, but when I move the pedals, the helicopter wants to roll and pitch around a bit. Very strange and not lifelike at all. Also, there seems to be a need for left pedal at higher airspeeds... this is backwards from reality. More pedal is needed in a hover, less is needed as the aircraft accelerates. Also, thought I should note, the jump between trainee and expert is pointless. The helicopter is exponentially harder to fly, but not because it is "more realistic" It's just harder. Nothing that changes from trainee to expert is something that you would see or feel in a real helicopter. I am sure with some time, I could get used to the quirks and learn to fly it, but it's not comparable to a real helo. Too many behaviors are not present, backwards, or otherwise modeled incorrectly. I can see some of this behavior and can recognize what BIS was trying to do, but they misunderstood something critical and got it wrong. I know this is going to sound rude, and for that I apologize, but in my opinion it's the truth. BIS needs to fix these behavioral issues or they need to take this out of their advertisement of the game: "Authentic Flight Model - Incredibly realistic piloting experience." You failed to deliver. Now with that said, if there is anything I or any of us real pilots can do to HELP you deliver, please please feel free to pick our brains. We WANT this game to be successful.

None of it is modeled correctly. I just installed my spankin new Nvidia GTX 550 card. The performance and graphics are WAY up from what they were, I am very happy with the new card, and I must say, the game looks pretty durn good now. But the flight dynamics are still atrocious. I will be posting some details in my other thread about flight dynamics. I must say, I am still not impressed at all with that aspect of the game. It certainly is CHALLENGING, but it is not the least bit REALISTIC.

Get that collective down all the way, nose it over for airspeed, and hopefully you have enough altitude to pull of a decent flare. Use whatever you've got, flare, level the skids at 10 feet and let it settle.

Care to elaborate Chris? I actually find that X-plane is pretty close to reality as far as autos go, depending on the helicopter of course. ---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ---------- Depends on the type. In an R22 with two people, you need to keep an inch or so of collective in or you will overspeed the rotors. However, if you are by yourself, it will be down to the stop and you will have the low rotor horn going off the whole way down. Courtesy of a low inertia rotor system :cool:

I have done quite a bit of training in R22s and S300s. I am currently an instructor at a school that uses S300s. Renton in fact, which is the airport that they had you do your autorotation training in the game. I have a few hours in some other ships (MD500, Bell 206, UH-1D) and I was in the service for many years as a Chinook Mechanic/Crewcheif and I have over 1000 hours of night, combat, NVG time as a crewmember. ---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ---------- Nope, when he says "lower the collective and bring the throttle to idle", you need to lower the collective all the way to enter the auto, then raise it a bit as necessary to get your desired descent rate. Use your cyclic to control your airspeed and rate of closure on your target area.

It's not that bad... and on some helicopters it's really difficult to get into. Where it becomes dangerous in situations where you are low to the ground, high density altitude, etc where it's hard to recover. The thing about retreating blade stall is, it's self correcting, when the nose pitches up, the helicopter slows down and it recovers itself. There have not been many incedences where this has caused a crash that I am aware of. One such incident happened to a Finnish military MD 500 Defender that was doing high speed NOE training and had the blades stall in a left bank. They rolled right into the ground. Often times, the helicopter does not even have enough power to get going that fast in the first place. You would see it at high density altitudes, where the rotors are less efficient and the blade stall happens at lower airspeeds, like mountain flying, and in descents with high forward airspeed. Also, there is usually a warning first, the helicopter sill start to oscillate on the edge. You really have to be accellerating THROUGH that barrier at a rapid rate to get into full blown RBS.

Thanks OMAC, I have that setup now, but I would still like an analogue option :)

Ok... just did, and passed the training first time go. Aside from issues with the flight dynamics that I have already identified (descent too slow, ground effect overexaggerated, and lack of torque/yaw effects) I think it was ok. Not great, but ok. Definitely doable. Alot easier than in the real thing, that is for sure. I did all of this on expert settings with a real heli control setup. Some tips, lower the collective then raise it to maintain 1000 fpm descent. Keep your forward speed around 60 until the flare. If you pull too much collective your rotors will stop turning. If you lower the collective too far, the instructor will complain about your rate of descent and you may undershoot the "pad". The second portion, to the ground, was much easier. At about 40 ft, flare by pulling back cyclic and slowing down, level at about 10 ft, and let the helicopter settle, using the collective as needed to keep the landing from being too hard. Takes practice for begginners. That's all I can say. Practice practice practice. I've done hundreds of autos in the real thing and I still have room for improvement.

OMAC. I will take a look at this next. Haven't done the training yet. After what I have seen so far, I would be willing to bet it's not done accurately, HOWEVER, autorotations are the hardest manuever to accomplish in a helicopter, and it is the section that instructors see the most students drop out of training.

I will check this out and see what I see. I have not flown the "heavy" yet.

There are several available. This is what I have. http://rainman.tv/index_files/rainman_helisim.htm There are also several other commercial manufacturers avialable. This stuff is pricey, and I wouldn't recommend it just for TOH. This is hardcore simmer stuff here. I use mine for training with X-plane (hardcore realistic flight dynamics), but it works for TOH too. An analogue throttle setting could also be mapped to buttons on the joystick. We just need the ability to roll it on and off. I HATE having to look down at the throttle and use my mouse to bring it from full to idle, etc. In the real thing, I just twist my wrist. Buttons on a joystick, throttle quadrant for HOTAS sticks, and setups like mine would all benefit from having an analogue throttle setting. I don't think it would be very hard to implement. And those that don't want to use it don't have to!

Actually, I DID mention the ground effect, I just did not go into as much detail as you did. The reason being, you had already covered it in another forum thread :D. Read my second paragraph again. Regarding the torque effects on the tail rotor and the tail rotor on available power, I agree with you that this is not modeled properly, however, I this is a very difficult thing to model (not even Flight Simulator can model it properly, although somehow the Dodo team managed it with some external plug ins) and I don't expect to see that working fully in this game (it is after all, a game, not a simulator), though it WOULD be nice to see. I am trying to focus mainly on the blatantly OBVIOUS things that are annoyingly wrong. Things that contradict their claim of "realistic" flight dynamics. Yes, it's a game, we know that. But if you claim "realistic" flight dynamics, the program needs to live up to that. I don't expect perfection here, but some of this stuff is very very backwards. There are many great flying videos on Youtube, including some that I have done. Here's my channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/nightsta1ker1?feature=mhee Watch control movements and how the helicopter responds in some of these and compare it to the game. You can see the obvious differences.

Sorry mate, this is incorrect. Helicopters need almost no pedal to assist in the turn. Pedals are there to counter torque and to "yaw" the helicopter. Though some adjustment to keep the helicopter in "trim" may be required, I find that most of my flying is done without moving the pedals. Large pedal movements come as an adjustment to rotor torque is made. A reduction in torque requires right pedal, an increase requires left pedal. In short, the pedals are only used to "turn" the helicopter in a hover. In forward flight, they are not used much and pretty much stay put. Quite a few helicopters out there don't even have a slip indicator! It's not considered important enough! I don't know where you got your information on this, but it's wrong. By the way, TOH does not model this behavior correctly, so if you are basing your opinion off that, you would be making a mistake. :D

I was definitely in bad form when I posted that. It was at the end of a hairraising week rigging flight controls an a Chinook helicopter. I haven't gotten to fly a real helo in weeks (no students at the moment). It took 4 hours to download TOH from Sprocket. My internet has been on the fritz and I had the Comcast guy out for the 3rd time in as many months. So when I fired the game up and it pooped I was a little pissed. I probably should have taken a cold shower before posting. I will try and be more professional from here on out. My GTX 260 will run the game, barely. No crashes yet, but my fan spools up so fast I worry my computer will explode! I need a new card. I may sneak out tomorrow and pick one up while the wife is out. My impression so far is as follows: I have only tried the light helo in free flight. In expert mode, with everything mapped except throttle, I feel like the helicopter wants to float. Full down collective and the helicopter settles at a very very reduced rate from the real thing. Lowering the collective in a real helo gives you a descent rate of 1500-2000 FPM. I am getting maybe 500 FPM in TOH. Also, the stability dynamics seem backwards. By this I mean that, a helicopter fuselage dangles from the rotor system, which is supporting it as it is the part that is actually flying. So imagine holding a pendulum from your hand. As you move your hand, the pendulum responds, this is the kind of motion that should be depicted in a hover. It seems opposite to me, more like trying to balance a pencil on your hand. It wants to fall over, whereas a pendulum wants to dangle directly below you and is trying to find its equilibrium. When you tilt the rotor disk in a helicopter in a hover, you slide in that direction, not roll over, because the airframe wants to stay DOWN. In order to roll the helicopter over, you need a pivot point, like a skid touching the ground, or a rock or a grass patch. It needs to GRAB something in order to give it that rolling moment. You cant just roll the heli over by applying lateral cyclic in the hover, you will just take off in whatever direction you pointed the cyclic until you correct it, or hit something. Not to say it WOULDN'T roll over if you completely rediculously overcontrolled the thing. But it doesn't inherrently WANT to do that. WHEW! I hope that makes sense. Regarding the throttle.... I have a full helicopter control set with a twist grip throttle on the collective. Is there any way you could assign an analogue setting for those of us that have the hardware to simulate a roll on/off throttle? This also may be helpful to people who have a HOTAS joystick. Being able to control the throttle is key to starting, shutting down, simulating power failures and dealing with things like governor failures (manually controlling the throttle setting for a given pitch setting). This would definitely make the pilot types happy. Thanks for being patient with me. Scott

I will plug my 260 in and wait for a new high end card to come out so I will have something for A3. I love me some flying games, but I love to kill me some tangos too! "BOOM HEADSHOT!!!!" Thanks for the advice guys.

So I had started a thread that seems to have been deleted. Considering some of the content, I don't blame BI for deleting the post, so no grudges. Unfortunately, I had posed some questions that I did not get to see the responses for. It's been identified that my GPU is not capable of handling this program, I got a new computer with a faster processor and a slower GPU than on my previous rig. Current rig: i7 2600 with a GT 530. Old rig had a GTX 260. WIll I see an improvement if I install the GTX 260 in place of my GT 530? I guess I was not paying attention to the 'X' at the end and the Best Buy guy conned me and told me that the GT530 was "MUCH faster" than the GTX 260. My faster CPU makes games like X-plane and FSX run MUCH better than my old processor, but TOH is very GPU reliant, so I guess I did not notice a decrease in performance until I bought this program. Is it worth it for me to swap them out? Or should I just go buy a new GPU altogether? I don't know if even my GTX 260 can handle this game. Thanks in advance. Scott Swanberg

The rolling tendency on a helicopter is due to dissemetry of lift, but it is acounted for by allowing the blades to flap up and down at different points in their rotation, at least until forward velocity exceeds the rotor hubs ability to compensate, at which point you would see a roll on the retreating blade side coupled with a nose up tendency. In any case, the right roll people are seeing in TOH is not accurate. The blades are counter clockwise rotating, for one, so the retreating side is on the left. If there were going to be any roll present, it would be on that side. Secondly, as stated above, withing the aircrafts authorized operating speed range, the pilot should not notice much change at all because the rotor system is designed to take care of these things on it's own. Just don't exceed your speed redline.

Good points made by all. I am aware of the limitations of sim vs. reality, I was simming well before I ever got my ratings. I also know how accurate it CAN be within the limitations of a game. I helped the developer of the Dreamfoil R22 for X-plane test his flight dynamics and provide feedback on systems and behavior for it, and it is arguably one of the most realistic helicopters on a home computer. That doesn't make it perfect. Nothing can match reality. I also know that this is a game and not a sim. I was not expecting a sim. What I was expecting was a game with some additional realism, which is what they advertised. After months of testing and providing feedback, myself and several other real pilots started to get worried that this game might not live up to it's potential. But maybe it did. Maybe I just cannot experience that because my hardware sucks. I don't think my expectations were unrealistic. I was not hoping for anything they did not advertise. When I get my hardware figured out, I will give it another go and re-assess. By the way.... is a GTX260 better than a GT530? I have the former sitting in my OLD computer, I had upgraded the stock GPU. The GT530 came with my new computer. Would I see any gain if I switched them, even if the 260 is still on the low end?

No worries Ziggy, I deserved it. Before I checked back here I knew I should have done some troubleshooting before I posted such a scathing review. I really had no idea my graphics card was that outdated... all the stupid numbers and letters... GT, GX... I thought my 530 was a decent card. And seriously, I have NO issues with other programs. I am not a computer whiz by any means. All this stuff is voodoo to me.

Enjoy. Notice how small the control movements are, especially with the pedals.

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum and this is my first post. Just a little background before I get started: I am a real world helo pilot/mechanic with 10 years military experience. I am also an avid gamer/simmer. I have been a fan of ArmA since it's inception and was a fan of OFP before that. I have always been intrigued by the flyable helicopters in ArmA and was hoping that more focus would be put on flight model and cockpit details in the future. Needless to say I find the prospect of what Take On Helicopters could become very exciting. I can tell you that this game is generating alot of interest, curiosity, and the usual skepticism in the helicopter (and helicopter simming) communities. There is a definite lack of helicopter games out there. There always has been. They are difficult to fly, the missions are widely varied, and unless you get to blow some shit up, most people are not interested. Historically, helicopter games, when they come out, are either too intense for players to enjoy unless they are hardcore simmers (DCS Blackshark comes to mind) or they are way too arcade (which may sell better to the masses, but severely disapoints the helicopter community that has been hoping for a holy grail for decades). I see this possibly being a good balance of both. I am definitely hoping for extremely realistic flight dynamics and mission activities. Of course, making the game too realistic will definitely be a turn off to the majority of gamers. The solution to this would be a sliding scale of realism ranging from ArmA like docile behavior to the extreme touchiness of real helicopters. Another concern I am seeing in the helicopter community is your visual models. It is clear that you are making good visual models with lots of eye candy, however, several prominent flaws in the models have alot of people worried about the authenticity of the game. It has been discussed that perhaps this is done on purpose, to make it clear to consumers that this is a game and not a simulator. I would be curious to hear Bohemia's take on all this, and I know alot of other Heli-simmers are very curious as well. Just know that there is a sizeable community of knowledgable pilot/simmers out there that are willing to provide feedback, support and would be more than happy to beta test. If this game comes out with a high level of realism, you are guaranteed to sell some copies in our arena.