nightsta1ker

Thanks for the response, I found a way to make it work. :D

OK, so this is my first time trying to use ALiVE. I have steam. I followed all directions in the .readme. Using the launcher for the game. No ALiVE. No missions or tutorials. Can't run anything that is ALiVE dependant. What am I doing wrong? Yes I have CBA installed as well.

These are the real issues plauging the flight model IMO. I am stealing the first part of this from my other post. My impression so far is as follows: Light and medium helos. In expert mode, with everything mapped except throttle, I feel like the helicopter wants to float. Full down collective and the helicopter settles at a very very reduced rate from the real thing. Lowering the collective in a real helo gives you a descent rate of 1500-2000 FPM. I am getting maybe 500 FPM in TOH. Also, the stability dynamics seem backwards. By this I mean that, a helicopter fuselage dangles from the rotor system, which is supporting it as it is the part that is actually flying. So imagine holding a pendulum from your hand. As you move your hand, the pendulum responds, this is the kind of motion that should be depicted in a hover. It seems opposite to me, more like trying to balance a pencil on your hand. It wants to fall over, whereas a pendulum wants to dangle directly below you and is trying to find its equilibrium. When you tilt the rotor disk in a helicopter in a hover, you slide in that direction, not roll over, because the airframe wants to stay DOWN. In order to roll the helicopter over, you need a pivot point, like a skid touching the ground, or a rock or a grass patch. It needs to GRAB something in order to give it that rolling moment. You cant just roll the heli over by applying lateral cyclic in the hover, you will just take off in whatever direction you pointed the cyclic until you correct it, or hit something. Not to say it WOULDN'T roll over if you completely rediculously overcontrolled the thing. But it doesn't inherrently WANT to do that. How to fix it: Increase the descent rate to 2000 FPM with full down collective. Reduce the "ground effect" present in the game. It's totally overdone. The medium helo feels better about this than the light helo. I would recommend you make the light helo feel a little bit heavier. Reduce the rolling moment with cyclic input. Cyclic input should give the helicopter a directional movement over the surface without wanting to flip it over. Basically, stabilize the body of the helicopter a bit. The rotorsystem is tilting, not the airframe (at least, not as much, there is still some banking, etc, but it's way overdone here). Regarding the throttle.... I have a full helicopter control set with a twist grip throttle on the collective. Is there any way you could assign an analogue setting for those of us that have the hardware to simulate a roll on/off throttle? This also may be helpful to people who have a HOTAS joystick. Being able to control the throttle is key to starting, shutting down, simulating power failures and dealing with things like governor failures (manually controlling the throttle setting for a given pitch setting). This would definitely make the pilot types happy. Dyssemetry of lift: Modeled on the wrong side of the helicopter. The helicopter seems to have a tendency to roll right, and when I deliberately got over VNE to test retreating blade stall, the helicopter did what it was supposed to, except in the wrong direction. How to fix it: Get rid of the rolling tendency in forward flight. Real helicopter rotor systems have the ability to flap which nulls the rolling moment. Basically, the dyssimetry is there, but the pilot can't tell because the rotor system is doing the fixing on it's own. Retreating blade stall happens when the dyssimetry of lift becomes too great for the flapping hinge to overcome, THEN you get the rolling/pitch up tendency, but it will roll to the LEFT on counter-clockwise turning rotor systems. So get rid of the rolling tendency below VNE, and then, when VNE is exceeded, have the helicopter roll to the LEFT. Torque effect: Not present? Very limited? I can't tell because the slip ball does not seem to work. In any case, I get almost no feeling of torque in a hover on Expert settings. No left pedal required. How to fix it: As torque is applied to the rotor system, the helicopter wants to yaw in the opposite direction of the blades rotation. In counter clockwise turning rotor systems, it wants to yaw right, so the pilot needs to add left pedal. I am not seeing this in game, although I saw it in the Community Preview. Keep in mind that as forward airspeed increases, less left pedal is required due to a combination of increased tail rotor efficiency as well as the vertical stabilizer becoming effective. That's all I currently noticed.

This is the second update I have done. I consider it the third community update because b101_uk recently released some excellent modifications that are included in this update. I basically took his work and added to it. Please feel free to share your thoughts. Click on the link and simply unzip this folder into your TOH root folder and enjoy the new flight dynamics. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?bgdihcqukjdlysz A great big thanks to everyone who has helped me do this. And if I get positive feedback, I will move on to working on the medium and heavy helo's next. Enjoy!

First, I'd like to introduce myself as a real world helicopter CFI, so that you know what my credentials are. The first thing that needs to be said is that unless you have a set of real helicopter controls for your computer (full cyclic, collective and pedals), this game is going to do you no good on your journey to becoming a real helicopter pilot. It is a game. It was created for fun. Not for simulation purposes. The flight dynamics are better than most games (including FSX, although I strongly feel that X-Plane physics and systems have everything else beat hands down), but it is still a game. And even in the most realistic simulator, unless you have full motion platform, real controls, and a dome projection for 180 degree FOV, you are not going to be able to experience the sensation you will get in real flight. Hovering is actually quite easy in real life compared to the game. Your inner ear, lower spine, and peripheral vision are all adding huge amounts of data to your brain telling you what is going on. Also, with the systems and dynamics lacking as they are, I would not recommend you use this game to try and get an experience for real helicopter flight or operations. The game is fun, yes. Challenging, yes. Realistic? I would have to say no. The missions, gameplay, characters, interactions with objects... None of it feels very real to me based on my experience as a real pilot. My recommendation is, if you want to enjoy the game for what it is, great. But leave your impressions of the game at home when you go for your first real lesson, you will find out how vastly different the real thing is. As far as hovering goes... try not to over control. This is a common mistake for beginners. Use very small movements with your hands. Look out to the horizon , but use your peripheral vision (limited as it is in the game) to look at the corners of the screen to see where you are moving on the ground. Use stick PRESSURE, rather than stick MOVEMENT. If you are drifting left, apply a slight amount of pressure to the right. If it's not enough, keep increasing the pressure until you get the desired result. But if you are using more than an 8th of an inch of movement at a time, you are going to be all over the place. Landing is easy, just hover (once you get the hang of it) and lower your collective slightly and let the helicopter settle. Go to a wide open area with no obstacles and practice doing run on landings like an airplane. The skids will slide on the groung (you will do this in a real helicopter too when you start training). Landing with some forward speed is always easier. Once you get the hang of that, start slowing it down. Try landing at lower and lower speeds until you can do it from a hover. Then, when you get the hovering and smooth landing down, you can start practicing putting it on a precise spot. Pick a marker of something on the ground and practice setting it right where you want it. It's challenging, even for me, a real world helicopter pilot with hundreds of hours. This game is a bit tricky, but it's not impossible. As Meercat said, it takes time and practice. Good luck!

What do you mean by "360 degree side flip"?

Yes, so the pedal input. You will need some left pedal until you get to much higher speeds. I do not think the current build of TOH models the effectiveness of the tail rotor in forward flight quite correctly yet. In most helicopters at cruise speed (whatever that speed happens to be for that model) the pedals are usually pretty close to neutral. This is because as the helicopter is moving forward, the main and tail rotors become more efficient, the more efficient main rotor needs less power, so less torque is produced, and the more effective tail rotor also needs less pitch to counter the exisiting torque. This acts as a double whammy and the pilot needs much less left pedal with forward speed increase. However, you will only notice this as a gradual change as you gain speed. You will need to keep left pedal in AS NECESSARY to keep a straight track. As I said, understanding the theory is only part of the equation. Muscle memory is the rest. Some students (particularly older ones, 30s and up) have a hard time grasping that they need to FLY the helicopter. Make it do what you want it to do. It takes some students DOZENS of hours to get the hang of hovering. Some students learn about it almost instantly. Some have issues transitioning from the hover to forward flight, and back to a hover again. The dynamics of the hover and forward flight are very different, and the in between zone is a bit tricky with lots of fluid changes happening that the pilot must adjust for. From the hover: Left pedal to counter torque, slight left cyclic to counter drift. Start pushing the cyclic forward and raising the collective (just a touch) to keep from settling, maintain your heading with pedals as necessary, control your lateral drift with your cyclic. Continue to accelerate by pushing the cyclic forward gently, at around 15-25 knots you will experience a momentary pitch-back sensation, this is the rotorsystem becoming more efficient, you will also notice a pedal wobble, just adjust as necessary to maintain your ground track and push the cyclic forward to counter the "bump" (you may not notice this at all... and then you might... rapid accelerations do not yield such a bump, but slower ones do). As the helicopter passes through 40 knots gently apply aft cyclic and start a cyclic climb. Your rotor system should be efficient enough that you don't need any more collective, in fact, you might need to reduce it! Maintain your heading with pedals as necessary and use your cyclic to control your airspeed and your collective to control your climb and descent rate. Turns are made by banking, keep your pedals where they were before you entered the turn. Approach to the hover from forward flight: The goal is to terminate both your forward speed and your descent in a three to five foot hover over your intended spot. A ways out (depending how high you are) lower the collective smoothly so that you have established a 500 Foot per minute rate of descent toward your target spot. Use aft cyclic to slow down smoothly, and at a rate that you will terminate your forward speed over your spot. This is called controlling your rate of closure as Zentaos said. As you approach your spot, try to keep it in one place on your screen. If it is going down, you will overshoot it. If it is going up, you will undershoot it. Use your collective to do this. You must coordinate your descent rate with your speed reduction or you will end up 3-5 feet over your target, and then fly right over it. This takes lots of practice. A tip: On short and final approach (below 40 knots and 300 feet AGL) pick a visual reference point BEYOND your actual intended landing spot, otherwise you will undershoot your spot (the eye tries to keep it in sight when you really need to put it underneath you). As always, you will need to maintain your heading with pedal. As you slow down, your rotors become less efficient, you will notice this quite a bit when you get below 15-25 knots and you will suddenly need ALOT of left pedal. Just go with the flow. Use your cyclic to control your lateral drift in the approach and pedal for heading. Forward cyclic for airspeed and collective for your climb and descent rate. Practice, practice, practice. And have fun!

The collective should only be used for power application, or up an down movement. Cyclic should control your position on the ground in a hover, airspeed in forward flight and rate of closure to the intended landing point. The pedals are used to counter torque, to turn the helicopters nose in a hover, and trim the aircraft in forward flight (by trim I mean keeping the center of gravity straight down, if you are out of trim, you will slip or skid, especially in a turn). Turning the helicopter in forward flight is done by banking, like an airplane. Use our cyclic to maintain desired airspeed and lateral cyclic to control your bank/turn rate. Keep in mind you are generating less lift in a turn so will need a touch of extra collective to stay level and keep from losing airspeed.

I like to tell my students to imagine holding a pendulum from their hand. Start it swinging in a circle or in some random fashion and then... here's the tricky part... Stop it from swinging. You would need to OPPOSE the centrifugal force by moving your hand in the same direction so that you are centering the pendulum under the point of suspension. Using the cyclic in a helicopter is kind of like that. They seem a bit unpredictable, and to a degree they can be, they are very sensitive to both outside input (the air around them and it's interaction with other objects, the ground, and the rotor-system) and from pilot input. But once you get a feel for what the helicopter is GOING to do, you can start countering it before it happens. This means that the pilot is constantly making small adjustments. The SMOOTH pilot is constantly making small adjustments milliseconds before they need to be made. Small control inputs are critical. Find your balance point in a hover (the place that's close to where it needs to be for the helicopter to stay centered over one spot). This may not be the center of the stick, as the push from the tail-rotor moves the helicopter to the right. Another thing to remember is that power changes mean a change in all the other controls. Raising the collective means more torque, so you need more left pedal, which means that the tail rotor is putting out more thrust, which means more drift, which means the pilot needs to add left cyclic to counter the right drift. If you reduce collective pitch the opposite happens. Understanding exactly what your controls are doing, and how they relate to each other is important, but more important than that is practice and muscle memory. I hope this helps.

It would work great if I did not mind them turning into zombies. I had a childhood outdoors and only since moving to rainy Washington have I become stuck inside and glued to the computer. If I move, you may never hear from me again!

I've got my hands in everything rotor-wing. X-plane, FSX, and now TOH. Plus a full time job maintaining Chinooks and moonlighting as a flight instructor. Oh yeah, And I am married with two kids. So I don't have too much time for all this stuff as it is. When I get the free time, I work on my various projects. Most often I barely have enough time just to check all the forums I keep tabs on. And at this point, it's been a while since I just played to have fun. I'm always tweaking something and trying to make it better. Just my nature I guess :D.

Supposedly TOH models this, and I can see where the code is. Unfortunately changing these parameters seems to significantly screw with other behaviors... It all has to do with the gear ratios which b101_uk spent so much time perfecting. I'm still trying to figure some of this stuff out. There has to be a way... In any case, I am busy doing some official Beta tester duties for Nemeth Designs so that will probably keep me occupied for a few weeks.

I'm afraid you have completely lost me. :386:

Too early to say for sure, but I think that the the numbers for thrust produced by the tail rotor were inverted, which is to say that as forward speed increased, the thrust produced by the tail rotor increased, but the wrong way. I need to play with some numbers and do some more thorough tests, but I think I might be on to something that will make us all happy. Here's hoping.

I like mediafire just fine. Dropbox is basically the same thing right?

Brain food: The more collective (power) you add, the more torque you are applying to the airframe through the drive train. So as you pull more power to accelerate, you will need more left pedal to compensate. The amount of left pedal needed is NOT linked to airspeed. In fact, one of the issues I am sussing out is there does not seem to be an increase in tail rotor efficiency as the helicopter gains speed. In a real helicopter, alot of left pedal is needed in a hover, and also if the relative wind is blowing into the rotor, it can make it less efficient so you would need even more left pedal to compensate. When the helicopter moves into forward flight, both the main and the tail rotors start to become more efficient, so almost immediately the pilot needs to start REDUCING left pedal (or applying right pedal, however you want to think about it) as airspeed increases. My current mod is not reflecting this. I spent the last few hours reading through RTD's flight dynamics wiki that explains what all the values are and what they do. I have a few ideas, but nothing so easy as "HERE it is! This is the value you need to change!". It's more like I have a few things that I know affect it in some way and I need to find a balance between several values. About to dive in again. If I make any noteworthy changes I will upload them and post the link.

I hope it lives up to expectations. It certainly feels more realistic to me on my setup, but mileage seems to vary.

OMAC, I did all of my mods for maximum realism with a joystick or flight controls. I did not test, nor do I have any intention of testing with keyboard and mouse. As I told ziggy, I CAN put out a second mod specifically for keyboard/mouse users. But some realism will be sacrificed. Helicopters are not meant to be flown with a keyboard and mouse. You don't pull 50-100 collective, if you do, bad things will happen. SamB, I will revisit it tonight after work and see what I can do. I would like to see more EFFECTIVE pedal with more TIY effect. Right now I am simulating TIY with reduced pedal authority and that's not correct.

Md500 enthusiast: if you are not seeing changes then you must not have installed the files correctly. Make sure that you put the right folder in your root TOH folder. All the files within the HSim folder need to stay where they are. Just drop HSim into your root directory and that's it. Regarding everyone elses issues with yaw. I feel it's excessive and I am going to work on it some more tonight. I just can't find a happy balance. It's either too weak or too strong, and I notice that when power is off there is an excessive amount of transmission drag requiring a ton of right pedal. And I also noticed that translating tendency (the tail rotor pushing the helicopter sideways) is extreme and noticeable in forward flight when it should not be. I don't know how to fix these issues yet but I'm working on it. There will be another update. Thanks for your feedback and your patience.

Perhaps it's a little immature to call it a "patch", but after doing alot of tweaking and testing, and with alot of help from community members like leftskidlow, heli_flying, dirtydeeds(ziggy) and others, I have been able to get the Light variant to be very "plausible". I would say there are still quite a few things I would like to improve on, but alot of people are asking me for my current tweaks. I figure, if I can get this out there then everyone can see for themselves what is possible by tweaking the FD. As things improve, more updates can be posted. So with that said, this by no means is a "total fix" for some of the issues that us pilots are seeing, but I feel good enough about the flight model now that I could call it somewhat "authentic". Here's a list of what is improved: Control lag removed pedal responsiveness improved ground effect reduced lower collective range increased for better descent rates/ quickstops. Helicopter no longer feels "light on the skids" when on the ground with full down collective. Here's what I would still like to see fixed: Faster rate of roll/pitch/yaw (theres no lag now, but it does not respond as fast as I would like) More realistic engine and torque performance (b101_uk has had a breakthrough in this area, though I have not seen the results yet) Strange right roll tendencies that occur in a right bank with collective input changes (I still don't know what is causing this, but I know it's not realistic because it is keeping me from executing manuevers I have done in real helicopters). Anyone with any improvements they would like to add to this, or have viable, constructive suggestions to make this better, please share. Check the "spoiler" for the new .XML. For the newbies who don't know what to do with this, please read this thread for instructions http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=126795

How the hell did that happen? ---------- Post added at 05:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ---------- Ok... here's a NEW link. This one you just unzip and copy into your root TOH folder. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?cq5tdfzqdet6lj2

I actually hope just the opposite. I hope BIS and RTD nail it. But that's just me. I would have been alot happier if I did not have to do all this code/ test/ troubleshoot/ code/ test/ troubleshoot. It's tiresome and boring and gives me a headache. I do it because I seem to have a rudimentary understanding of what the numbers mean, and I happen to be a real pilot, so I know what they should feel like. I just mess with numbers until it feels right. I am very pleased with what I have right now. I just shot an auto with throttle closed and it felt pretty all right. Much better than stock. Actually somewhat beleivable. I wish it acted that way with the throttle at idle... One thing that is kind of annoying me that I can't figure out... I still need left pedal in the flare with power off, even though there is no engine driving the rotors. There should be no torque at that point! Flight controls are feeling very nice. Some stability, but very sensitive. Not needing to overcorrect all the time and chase the helicopter around. Still have some wierd issues with torque. I find I need a LOT of right pedal with the collective all the way down, and a LOT of pedal with higher torque settings, but not a noticable amount at hover power, which is very odd feeling. I am hoping to get it released tonight. Issues or no. It's still a vast improvement. Most of the really hard stuff was done by b101_uk, I just played with control settings mostly and reduced some of the friction in the skids.

The latest version is much better in almost every regard. Hang on.

Sorry gents. Real world stuff and the release of the XP10 beta have kept me away from TOH for a bit. I am back at it today. I want to try and fix two things before this next release. The first one is reducing the pedal effectiveness a bit because I feel the amount currently needed is not enough. The second is increasing the roll rate. Sensitivity is not so much of an issue as the roll and pitch rates being too slow. I think I know HOW to do these things, now I just need to go do them. Don't worry, it's not dead, it was just on the backburner simmering for a few days. I was supposed to be testing the new official patch as well, but I needed some permissions that I don't currently have, so after several exchanged emails on the subject, I let it slide. I just don't have time to do all this stuff right now. Once I get MY update done and available for the community I will test the new patch (if it hasn't released already).