-Coulum-

Haven't gotten to play on Tanoa yet, but if its anything like what was on altis i would say that a big issue is not so much whether the ai can see you or not, but rather how long it takes them. In your video 2nd ranger, the ai maybe should have eventually spotted you, because you were technically visible. But it should have taken alot longer. Like a couple of minutes As frustrating as it is to get spotted when camoflauged and partially concealed, its pretty dumb when Ai simply never see you even though you are visible. Like the situation you mention If you're only partially concealed they should eventually spot you. otherwise its too easy.

@GrumpyOldMan Thanks for the nice tests and demo. Where exactly is spine1? Haven't been able to play in awhile, but don't remember headshots being overly ridiculous. A bit frustrating, but not outside the realm of believability. Not at the same ranges, but while airsofting, most hits are chest, head and arms. Rarely shot anywhere below nipples. And if I am, its often while crouched. Arms are hit because i'm holding the gun infront of me. Head is shot probably 30-40% of the time because its often only the head and a bit of the weapon/arm I am exposing. Though I can't find it now, read an article years back, about troops being accused of executing taliban due to overwhelming number of head wounds amongst the dead. Turns out troops were just good at popping skulls. Article said the main reason was increasing number of magnified optics being used. So, based on that, i'd expect headshots to occur more often than the head's relative size might suggest. That being said, with untrained shooters, or shooters under a bit of stress, I wouldn't be expecting every other hit to be a head/centre of mass. Good shooting there. But how often is it that you take that time to aim so precisely in firefights. Time increases odds of getting hit, and targets could move or take cover. Unless I have a big advantage or the fight hasn't kicked off yet, I am shooting more rapidly with less precision. Potentially where Ai could improve - they do good at starting inaccurate and zeroing in on you if you don't move/hide and they aren't under fire - Devs have done a great job there. But, when they start to line up accurate shots, their rate of fire remains the same. Think they should shoot slower like you did, as they get more accurate. Might help prevent the "miss, miss, miss, miss, BLAMBLAMinstantdeath" that people find off putting. Just an idea. Honestly if you use cover and react sensibly to incoming fire immediately the ai have a really hard time killing you.

Heavier weapons are definitely more difficult to handle than in stable, while moving, rotating quick or shortly after moving. Not impossible, but you really have to move slow and minimize quick changes in aim. It is good. I don't think this is an effect of stamina though. Seem to have upped inertia and then combined that with the new "sway due to movement" to get this. Stamina doesn't really play a role.

Well awesome. Any possibility that it could be made so weight has an impact - totally buck naked guy actually regains stamina, light loadoat, stagnant, full loadoat, extremely small loss, heavy loadout guy, steady loss. Or something like that. I think that would go along way to stifling the"what this is a soldier he should run forever" because "well he can, just drop a bit of gear". It would also actually make light loadouts a much more viable and interesting option. It might be worth it to drop the armour and extra ammo (to my mind it has never been the case, even with the old fatigue system). Was not expecting this. I thought BI were going to make all rates of stamina loss equal. Either lose at x rate, or don't lose at all. Glad I was wrong. Any chance different hills steepness could have different rates of stamina loss?

Indeed. System is actually harder to manage, despite stamina bar - only tells half the story. No breathing, screen effect or slow down. Unaware I am "tired" until I try to shoot and, holy fuck tonnes of sway. Not "transparent". Know my whining is probably useless and annoying but compare "transparency": Old system: simple. Go up hill, sprint, crouch, jog, tactical pace, carry alot of weight, or wounded - you tire faster. When tired sway increases, speed decreases. Become untired by stopping and resting. Now: jogging, crouching, tactical pace,walking don't deplete your stamina, BUT don't be fooled they'll sneak in and add tonnes of sway with zero warning. Sprinting depletes your stamina and adds another type of sway. And terrain will not do anything... until you reach a certain gradient. Degree above and depletes your stamina fast. Degree under and zero effect. Don't forget weight. It actually has no effect on stamina or sway at all, BUT it limits your maximum stamina :confused: . You tell me, which is easier to remember, understand and manage? Which one is more logical? Where is the transparency? Stamina bar? Why not add that to old system? Frustrates me so much. Not going to please anti-fatigue players. They will still disable it. Their issue isn't with transparency, its with limitation of ability. My ignorant perspective: Better off with stamina bar, nerfed version of fatigue, (normal jogging = 0 fatigue) enabled for recruit to regular difficulty and old fatigue for veteran and elite. Work movement based sway (awesome addition) into inertia. Sorry to rant. I find it hard to provide feedback - always end up just citing mechanics of fatigue. It was well done. I hear BI are making a mod of it. Glad to hear, though sad to have to play modded A3 after enjoying vanilla, from alpha to now. Have a different suggestion. Generation of sway stays the same. Recovery rate is effected by how long you jog, walk, whatever. Jog 10 seconds, sway is high but dissipates rapidly. Pretty much gone in seconds. Jog 5 minutes. Sway builds up to the same height. Dissipates at slower rate though. Takes a full 30 seconds. This prevents people from running and gunning after jogging short distances (I believe that would be the case with your suggestion), but doesn't make every bound incapacitate a player for a half a minute (as it does now). Similar idea here. Main theme: Sway recovery needs tweaking. I agree... at a different rate than a steeper/gentler hill. Apparently BI only wants one rate of stamina recovery/loss... too complicated if stamina loss was dynamic and based on the degree of slope. It needs to be a Boolean all or nothing... :angry: Understand, and totally agree.

Sorry if this is offtopic but I want to comment on it... and since there are no big changes today... Silent majority vs. vocal majority. Loud negative vs. quiet positive. verbal vs. observed. Who's feedback do you follow? My opinion... None. Devs shouldn't implement features content etc. because the majority told them so, or the old timers told them so, or because a certain mod is popular, or game mode is popular or there is a huge amount of whining and complaining or any other form of feedback. That would be poor game design imo. Good game designers would try to listen, as much as possible, to all feedback equally. And only act on it if it is constructive to their vision for THEIR game. If they hear a suggestion they really like and think would make the game more like what they want it to be... act on it. Regardless of popularity. If they hear suggestions that they don't think match up to the goals of their game... don't act on it. In the end a game will only be exceptional if it is made with passion and vision. If the devs aren't passionate about a feature, or they don't see how it fits into the vision of their game, I see no reason why they should implement it - aside from money - that usually ends up in generic, shitty, overpriced games... Hope others agree. I may misinterpret some comments, but there seems to be alot of entitlement. "We want this, we are the majority/veterans/paying customers(smh)/etc., you devs have an obligation to do as we say". That is wrong. And I hope I don't come across that way in my own posts (though I recognize how it is very possible). My goal is to sell my ideas and opinons best as possible and hope they compliment or fit in with the devs goals so they implement it. Most times they don't or can't. Oh well. I'm grateful when the devs implement suggestions purely for the sake of the community (my community of course) because I am pretty sure they do it purely for our satisfaction. Very nice of them. But I would never expect this. Anyhow food for thought. And options are always great... but ultimately its at the devs' discretion.

Bingo! Old fatigue system was far superior to what we got now. I had no problem with it. This one should take the good parts of the old system while keeping the new weapon sway build up over time (and better yet animation slowdown) to represent low intenstiy tiring, and the much quicker to deplete/replenish, stamina that we have now, to represent high intensity tiring (sprinting, lifting alot, lugging up a hill, crouch running etc.). Add in the nice new stamina bar and who knows maybe it will turn out better than the old fatigue. Im guessingthe combination of inertia and movement sway amplified one another to make it alot higher for than what you saw in the video. Also sway always looks big and ridiculous when you do nothing to compensate for it. Not saying that was the case for you, but in the video I was definitely countering or following the sway to get on target. Anyhow the sway from just moving isn't that bad from the get go IMO. It is when its combined with crazy spins and rapid change of direction that you get the crazy sway - Aand you should, because being able to 180 spin and easily land a hit on the guy who supposedly had the one up on you is kind of bad for realistic gameplay. Methodical and focused movement/aim really help, especially in close quarters. If you slow down and cover sectors it will really reward you rather than bursting in tacical pace and guns blazing. I like it!

Well first off, lets get it straight. You can shoot. Even effectively, after moving with the SPMG. Yes it is harder... Sprinting 10 metres, engaging at 50. But that is good! One positive out of this stamina business its that heavy weapons have been given a needed movement penalty. Sprinting with the SPMG and instantly trying to engage is more difficult. Way it should be. The gun is a beast and very heavy from what I gather. Sprinting with it and then raising it, shouldering it and firing it with accuracy is not going to happen with great speed. Finally this is actually true ingame. In contrast, using a SMG is opposite. Good job to the devs on that. There is room for improvement. The magnitude of sway is good I believe. But the duration - I think it lasts too long at high intensity. After moving sway should drastically decrease in the first half a dozen seconds. And then slowly drop for the remainder of the recovery time. This represents: Quick, broad stabilizing of the body and gun from swinging around to shouldered and aiming - weapon handling Slower, finer recover as one calms breathing, muscles etc. from the movement they were doing - fatigue End result would be... lets say for a rifleman - jog 50 metres, stop, aim. 2 or so seconds of high sway that rapidly dissipates. 20 or so seconds of low sway which slowly dissipates. Exact times subject to change. What do you guys think? I can't imagine it would be that big a change. Change the accuracy regeneration from linear to backwards exponential (I am sure there is a proper term for that). Easy Peasy!...... .... :( Again I'd like to repeat: Speed/Movement, Encumbrance, Terrain, Stance and Wounds need to somehow combine to determine if stamina is lost, gained or stays neutral during any action. Not just the type of movement should determine if something eats stamina, as is now.

The changes are better, especially sway. Still alot lacking, especially on making loadout, terrain, stance and movement speed actually factor in tandem. I gave up on suggesting mechanics in this thread a while ago... fuck it Way I see it, stamina system represents anaerobic ability - sprinting, heavy lifting, climbing etc.... CLIFFNOTES - Make it possible for any action to be fatiguing, resting or neutral based on encumbrance, stance and terrain. Not just movement speed (now). RESULT - Jogging (or other actions) may rest or tire you based on what you are carrying, stance and terrain. On "Encumbrance = Stamina bar size" Stamina bar size determined by encumbrance is silly. Find it odd that after I exhaust myself all I have to do is drop a vest and boom, I have more stamina. Firefight goes on, I expend ammo and gain energy :huh: . Not how it should work. Fitness determines how much stamina a person has. Encumbrance factors into how fast the stamina is depleted. Everyone should have equal stamina. Regeneration/loss should be situational. May not be as "transparent". Make it more so by using... Arrows in the stamina bar (as is done now) Rate of Fatigue bar Color of the stamina bar (red to green) ...to indicate how much the current combo of actions is fatiguing you. IMO Transparency means making better indicators for the player, not simplifying mechanics so they are easier to understand. The way encumbrance determines stamina is a simplification of mechanics. I'm not sure how much room devs have to work and how much the current system can be bent. But I think it is essential the 4 factors blend to produce rates of stamina loss/regeneration. Basing it on speed alone is far too simple to be interesting. Also, devs, What is your stance on the slomo animations? Did you decide they didn't meet quality standards? Is that one of the reasons for the "stamina revamp"?

Hi RiE. The only reason I brought it up was because of the combination of: New stamina system, which closely mimicks any generic FPS's sprint bar The statement "These changes alone will give you the opportunity to spot if you a hit target better", which sounds like you guys just wanted hit indicators, also a standard in any generic FPS It makes it seem as though the latest "core mechanics refinement", aside from ppe, is geared strictly towards making arma more like a COD, Battlefied etc. Thats what I was drawing attention to when I pointed out the new hit fx. Personally I don't mind them. But the motivation for them concerned me. After your explanation, not so much. But honestly my overall faith is not restored until the stamina system is changed. Alot. Well, like many have pointed out, it seemed like the fatigue system, plus the new stamina bar would have worked perfectly to achieve bullet points one through five. That is where the worry stems from. Why would the devs completely replace the old system, with a totally new, extremely simplified one, if the old system was already meeting the goals they themselves set? The conclusion one might come to is that their real goal was to simplify/dumb it down all along. Maybe I am ignorant of stamina's potential. But for the most part I saw little wrong with the fatigue system, and even less so that couldn't be fixed with some tweaking, all pointed out in this thread, rather than a complete revamp. I am glad to hear stamina is in a plastic state. I apologize for any premature, unfairly harsh criticism. It sounded to me like the system had been extensively tested and tweaked. I was unaware it had much room for developing. For now my feedback is pretty simple. It should be more like fatigue. There is not much more to add at this point. Its all already been said in this 74 page thread. You're good with words RiE and I feel more hopeful regarding this issue. But right now the new mechanic doesn't match up. I understand it will take time. But it is the end result of stamina that really speaks for the team's goals. As always thanks for your acknowledgement and detailed explanations. I am glad there are devs like you to calm us crazy armaholics down :)

And Nothing else. Regardless of what you carry. Pretty much the feeling I get when I am playing now. Your character simply doesn't get tired. Irregardless of the situation. The weapon sway due to non sprinting action is pretty much negligible. Very moderate, and can't seem to build it up to last more than 15 seconds even after 10km jog 95% encumbered, running up hills... gear, terrain, pathfinding, pace, planning etc. None of it really matters anymore. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to sprint more than 5 or so seconds your probably dead anyways. So the "heavy gear limits ones ability to sprint long periods" does shit all to impact gameplay. Absolute garbage compared to fatigue. Except for the stamina bar. When did BI change from: try to make deep gameplay accessible - easy to learn difficult to master... to straight up dumbing their game down. And there is no denying that stamina is extremely dumbed down. Just compare fatigue oprep to the stamina oprep. Which one sounds more interesting with more depth? Even the less noticed addition of "more defined hit impacts" in the latest devbranch to "spot if you a hit target better". BI you're taking away the originality of Arma and turning it into another generic shooter with a big map... Is that what you want?! Before this I didn't think so. Now I see no other explanation...

oops, sorry accidental post Still too shocked to contribute anything but pure rant at this point

Sorry devs, I hate to put down your hard work but What the fuck...? You can run in crouch stance with any gear, indefinitely. Do I even need to go further? At least we have a stamina bar now. Not that we need it with this horseshit system. This. Sorry but I'm really, really not liking this... Just thinking about it makes me shiver. The old system wasn't perfect no doubt, but it was SO much better than what we had in arma 2. And now we are pretty much back to arma 2. But with a stamina bar and varied limitation on sprint time. Why are you going backwards?!

Ha! Picturing that I had to laugh. Exactly. Perfect example of how body armour works, and humans can be quite resilient. I don't want enemies to take 27 hits ingame, but it goes to show the wide range of reactions to be shot. Well now the pistols take four shots to kill the CSAT guys. I personally think that is better. Four 9mm, two 6.5. This is kind of balanced with the other factions who can take more hits (seven from 9mm), but have less coverage. And since CSAT gear isn't real, balance is all we really have to go by. I hear you and feel the same. The whole hitpoints system, dead or alive, lack of bleeding etc. limits how realistic things can be. Best we can do is try for a realistic balance. Ie body armour/weapons give the correct magnitude even if the method is different. Agreed. They are a bit more effective than peashooters. Still possible to use. Just harder. But yeah they aren't overly effective against armoured units. Whats wrong with that? Its outdated weaponry. Its like complaining that bow and arrows should be more effective. The 5.56, in most cases, has become an inferior round in this setting. At least that's the way I see it. Its the shitty weapons for the weaker factions (only greenback and guerrilla blufor has em). Very good question. The VR dolls do seem to work more as expected. Devs? Good stuff, works much more like desired. Seven shots to the carrier rig. Could be a bit higher but as it is will do the job.

I suppose you can argue that this is fake. But there are similar videos out there. It pretty much proves what you describe is incorrect. And thats point blank. I've seen tests shooting a plate 60+ times at range and it holds up (with 556). I want the game to be realistic. You're right, in real life humans are fleshy sacks of water (though still quite difficult to kill outright). But in real life armour is also quite effective. I like lethal gameplay. One pistol shot should be capable of killing anyone. But not if its used incorrectly. If you are repeatedly shooting someone in the plate, it should not do much. If you are not hitting the fleshy sack of water it doesn't matter that its a fleshy sack of water. Know what I mean? I believe some padding under the armour will pretty much eliminate any serious damage from the deforming plate. And momentum (Not KE) of recoil and bullet are the same. So the bullet wouldn't do much more than give you a tiny nudge. Pretty much matches up with the video I linked. Honestly I don't really know what properties that suit has. Is it kevlar? Or some alien material? Impossible to say what is realistic. However I find it wierd that it takes as many pistol shots as it does rifle shots... What about against unarmoured targets? I think the idea of devs were putting forth though is that the 556 simply became an inferior round because of the advances of armour and such. Thus why it is used by guerillas and "poorly" equipped armies. I don't really have a problem with that. overtime weapons become outdated. I do however still think that big guns are way to easy to handle. But thats a different topic.

Well fuck. You're right. yeah the legs are rather fragile. most often one shot kill. doesn't seem right.

I don't get that on my end. Usually takes three 6.5s to the leg. Sometimes two if you hit them at the right angle. Yesterday, before this tweak, I found that a carrier rig could take twelve shots from a 9mm. I was quite pleased as I think that is a more realistic direction. Pistols are fairly useless against plate armour, from what I understand. Today, after this tweak we are back to the four shots to the carrier rig and the guy goes down. I really hope that "trivial damage" can be decreased. alot. I think the Carrier rig should be able to take 10+ from a pistol honestly. Also regarding the neck hitzone - I still think it should be extended even further down the body. The entire exposed patch between the neck and the vest, below the buckle, should be considered the neck hitpoint. All three of these shots are to a pretty vulnerable area. "One shot kills". But they are counted as hits to the armoured chest plate. They shouldn't be. To fix this, the neck hitpoint should extend down more. Below you can see roughly: in red where the neck hitpoint exists, in the green where it should be extended to, and in the blue where it was extended to, but should probably be counted as the shoulder/arms instead - that area isn't vital like the neck. Yes I do agree. Especially on wounded capabilities. You should be able to take many hits to the extremities before death but you should be extremely disabled by them. More so than now. Similarly, shots to the pelvis and abdomen really shouldn't actually be one shot kills like they are now. Instead it should be multiple shots with extreme penalties. bleeding should be another possible "penalty" of nonlethal shots. However currently I believe all of that is out of the dev's scope. Right now its best to focus on tweaking the mechanics we do have. What are peoples thoughts on the performance of assault rifles vs the carrier rig plate?

Yeah Froggy I think it is the mod. All 7.62's I have tested ingame against plate carriers take two shots to kill... which is still arguably not realistic, but it is "balanced" in a "gamey" sort of way. Haven't tested it, but really happy that the neck hitpoint was tweaked and pistols were made less effective vs armour. Thank you devs! I still want to repeat that the 556 still performs too well vs armour IMO. Not only for realism, but for diversity in weapons. The way it consistently kills in three shots makes it boringly similar to the 6.5. And now the chest plate doesn't cover the whole torso. So making armour able to take 4+ 556's still won't prevent one shot kills. I think it would be beneficial to make 556 not as effective vs armour.

The new hitpoints to seem to work as described. Good job devs. Nut shots for the win. I suggest making the neck hitpoint extend further down to just below the collar bone. Because on the character it is clear this area is not covered by any armour, but, since it is currently part of the chest hitpoint rather than the neck hitpoint, it is treated as if it were armoured. I must agree with sniperwolf that even more hitpoints would be beneficial. I know its sounds ungrateful, but there is still the problem of exposed flanks being treated as if they were armoured. And when it comes to mods where people are making crazy armour configurations, it would be good to have separate hitpoints for the left and right sides. My suggestions: flanks (on the side, from armpit to hip), upper and lower leg, upper and lower arm and shoulder on both left and right sides... If nothing else there really is a need for the left and right flanks of the torso to be modeled so you can get past that body armour. And now that the armour covers more accurate regions of the body, it needs to be made more effective. Plate armour should not fail after 3 shots from a 9mm pistol! @x3kj Yes I agree with the general idea you have there. I, and I am sure many others throughout this thread have come up with similar ideas. I would love it if the devs implemented something so in depth, but unfortunately I think it will be left in mod territory. And fairly so.

Awesome solzenicyn! thanks for the detailed explanation. Time to start testing

After more testing, I believe I was mistaking top of the head "glancing" hits (not dealing full damage) with helmet protection. It does seem that the helmet does offer protection to the whole face still. It would be nice if the devs could comment on the changes made/planned In the arsenal I was able come up with these number of "shost to kill" vs the carrier rig from within 10 metres 9mm (PO7) - 4 556 (Mk20) - 3 6.5 (MX) - 3 7.62 (Mk14) - 2 I also noticed that all of these weapons are instant kills against unarmoured torsos. It seems that the 9mm and 556 especially, are much more effective nowadays. Personally I strongly dislike this new level of lethality. A 9mm should not be effective against high rated plate. To some degree, same for 556. The plate will certainly take more than 3 shots. Of course realistically the plate doesn't cover the whole torso. So I am hoping this damage buff is a short term fix, until the proper coverage of armour is represented. More severe hit penalties/reactions would also do well to balance out the protection armour grants. I know the devs said they were working on the issue. Any update/change in plans that you can throw at us? @en3x So how do your think all that info should translate in arma 3?

After more testing, I believe I was mistaking top of the head "glancing" hits (not dealling full damage) with helmet protection. It does seem that the helmet does offer protection to the whole face still. It would be nice if the devs could comment on the progress made and what is planned. Anyhow I will move to the appropriate thread now.

Personally, I am actually not a fan of 3 5.56 to a plate and the guy is dead. I would much prefer 5 or 6+, but the plate only covers what it actually covers (instead of the whole torso as it still seems to) and much more severe "wounded" penalties.

Saw this in the changelog and decided to fire the game up for the first time in a long while. There is indeed a difference between a helmet shot and a face shot now. great job devs! However that is all I could find. Couldn't really see any difference between a hit to the plate vs the unprotected sides/portions of the torso. I did notice that vests in general seem to offer less protection though. Three 556 to kill. I believe it used to be more...

Is that how you think it will work? Actually simulating the armour pieces as seperate materials? To me the Sitrep seemed to indicate that they were just making it so there are more hitpoints/possibility to create more hitpoints to properly represent exposed/armored places with more precision. So for example with a helmet the head would simply have two hitpoints instead of one. Top and bottom. Bottom wouldn't have any protection, top would. But the actual hemet wouldn't really block bullets. And damage calculation would be the same "dampening" effect we have now, rather than actual simulation of penetration/deflection/etc. Though that would be awesome. Or am I misunderstanding what they said? Either way its a still a step up. Glad to see that BI is staying true to to what they said way back.