PELHAM

Western countries / NATO did not declare war on Libya, they are implementing UN Resolution 1973: Security Council Approves ‘No-Fly Zone’ over Libya, Authorizing ‘All Necessary Measures’ to Protect Civilians Demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanityâ€, the Security Council this evening imposed a ban on all flights in the country’s airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on the Qadhafi regime and its supporters. Adopting resolution 1973 (2011) by a vote of 10 in favour to none against, with 5 abstentions (Brazil, China, Germany, India, Russian Federation), the Council authorized Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack in the country, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory — requesting them to immediately inform the Secretary-General of such measures. Recognizing the important role of the League of Arab States in the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind the United Nations Charter’s Chapter VIII, the Council asked the League’s member States to cooperate with other Member States in implementing the no-fly zone.

Okey dokey then...... ICC: Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi ordered the rape of hundreds of women as a weapon against rebel forces. Issued viagra to soldiers to aid carrying out this order. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13705854 Excerpts from the International Criminal Court document: SITUATION IN THE LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA PUBLIC REDACTED Version Prosecutor’s Application Pursuant to Article 58 as to Muammar Mohammed Abu Minyar GADDAFI, Saif Alâ€Islam GADDAFI and Abdullah ALâ€SENUSSI http://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1073503.pdf GADDAFI started organising the crackdown immediately: he appeared on television on 15 January 2011, a day after the thenâ€president of Tunisia stepped down, to warn those who wanted to follow the model of the Tunisian uprising. GADDAFI also gathered tribal leaders, professionals and journalists and threatened them with reprisals should they join the protests. 16 February 2011, one day before the escalation of the crimes against civilians, the Stateâ€owned telecommunication networks under the control of Muhammad, GADDAFI’s eldest son, sent SMS messages to all phones in the Libyan system containing threats against “anybody who tries to touch the four red lines,†one of which requires absolute respect for GADDAFI’s power. ALâ€SENUSSI, GADDAFI’s brotherâ€inâ€law and the head of the Military Intelligence. upon GADDAFI’s instructions, directed and coordinated the operation of the Security Forces in Benghazi and expressly ordered the shooting at civilians. Demonstrators were attacked by members of the Security Forces who opened machine gun fire on them in different areas of the city, such as the Juliyana bridge and Jamal Abdun Naser Street. These initial killings led to larger demonstrations throughout the country, growing demands by the people of Libya to end the dictatorship and, in response, a systematic and even more violent response from GADDAFI’s Security Forces. On 18 February in Benghazi the Security Forces carried out further attacks against civilians: they shot with heavy weaponry at a funeral procession when it passed by the barracks of the Alâ€Fadail Bou Oumar brigade (or Katiba), and at unarmed civilians who demonstrated against the regime. The same attacks were replicated throughout the country: for example in Misrata, Security Forces opened fire against a peaceful demonstration on 19 February and shot at a funeral procession on 20 February. In both incidents unarmed civilians were killed. On 20 February, SAIF ALâ€ISLAM spoke on Libyan state television, refusing to recognize the Libyans’ demands, blaming the unrest on “foreign agents†During that night, massive demonstrations against GADDAFI took place in different areas of Tripoli after the sunset prayers. GADDAFIʹs Security Forces opened fire as soon as they met groups of peaceful demonstrators that were walking towards the Green Square. Similar incidents were replicated throughout the day mainly in the areas of the Green Square and city center, Mojam’a Alâ€Mahakem Court compound and Alâ€Dribi. In the following weeks, GADDAFI and his sons SAIF ALâ€ISLAM and Saadi gave a number of public speeches and media interviews reiterating their awareness of events, their command over the military and Security Forces, and their willingness to continue using violence against the protesters. It goes on and on......... D. CRIMES WITHIN THE JURISDICTION OF THE COURT WHICH MUAMMAR MOHAMMED ABU MINYAR GADDAFI, SAIF ALâ€ISLAM GADDAFI AND ABDULLAH ALâ€SENUSSI HAVE ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED PURSUANT TO ARTICLE 58(2)(B) OF THE ROME STATUTE Count 1 Murder constituting a crime against humanity (Article 7(1)(a) and Article 25(3)(a)of the Rome Statute) From 15 February 2011 onwards, GADDAFI, as indirect perpetrator, and SAIF AL†ISLAM and ALâ€SENUSSI, as indirect coâ€perpetrators, committed crimes against humanity in the form of murder across Libya in, inter alia, Tripoli, Benghazi, and Misrata, through the Libyan State apparatus and Security Forces in violation of Articles 7(1)(a) and 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute. Count 2 Persecution (Article 7(1)(h) and Article 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute) From 15 February 2011 onwards, GADDAFI, as indirect perpetrator, and SAIF AL†ISLAM and ALâ€SENUSSI, as indirect coâ€perpetrators, committed crimes against humanity in the form of persecution across Libya in, inter alia, Tripoli, Benghazi, Misrata and other Libyan localities through the Libyan State apparatus and Security Forces in violation of Articles 7(1)(h) and 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute.27

Yes that's what I said. There is evidence of mass killings of civilians by Gaddafi forces so an arrest warrant has been issued. They will have to prove that evidence when he is captured. (if) Yes that does happen occasionally but usually it is well known why it was done. People have no idea why there are hundreds buried in mass graves at the rear of industrial units in Tripoli. Secret mass graves need some explaining do they not? If you look at post #111 you will see people have been peacefully protesting for 35 years. Most of them were killed for it. Libyan people have never had any rights to lose? That's just laughable. In 1984 in London, without warning, Libyan diplomats discharged automatic gunfire into a crowd of anti-Gaddafi protesters. Eleven people were hit, including a Police woman, Yvonne Fletcher who was fatally wounded in the stomach. None were convicted, Gadaffi didn't even condemn the act. The two most likely suspects were senior members of the Libyan regime in 2011. Well they either are or they aren't lol. Who else benefited? Laws that prevent freedom of expression and political association benefit who exactly? Why was it that membership of any unauthorised political party was punishable by death? That just does not make sense. Public executions are wrong and serve only 1 purpose. To create a state of terror that eliminates opposition of any kind. It's wrong wherever it happens. In Libya children were forced to watch. If you have to execute at all, and I am not in favour of it, the sentence should be carried out in private with legal representatives as witnesses. FYI I have travelled on every continent apart from Antartica and I lived for several years under Bob Mugabe. I am well aware of just how things work around the world and I don't like it at all. Yes there are many Libyan soldiers lying in morgues who were shot in the back of the head for refusing 'legal' orders to shoot unarmed civilians. I guess you have no problem with that?

-Signs of mass dissent first began in late January -On 15 February 2011 a series of peaceful protests which were met with military force by the Gaddafi regime. -The full-scale revolt began on 17 February 2011. -On 17 March 2011 the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 1973. -On 19 March 2011, the first Allied act to secure the no-fly zone began when French military jets entered Libyan airspace on a reconnaissance mission. I guess that clears up the timeline for you? No? In my above post you will see a list of names of people who demonstrated peacefully and were brutally killed for it. It's a short list, there are certainly many, many others. Yes it does mean they can start a war because they have exhausted every other possible means. Gadaffi has been killing people at home and abroad for 35 years. Just what else do you expect, put up with a Gaddafi dynasty for the next 100 years hoping they will get tired of killing and stealing money? What authority does Gaddafi have exactly? Declaring yourself king of kings is meaningless. In my post above there is a video of a public execution where children were forced to watch. 1 is enough to declare brutality isn't it?

Care to explain these? Omar A. Dabboub, 7 April 1977, Benghazi. Teacher. Executed by public hanging, for participating in Jan. '76 student demonstrations. Gaddafi presided over the execution personally. Mohammed bin Saud, 7 April 1977, Benghazi, same day as Dabboub. Teacher. Executed by public hanging, for participating in Jan. '76 student demonstrations. Gaddafi presided over the execution personally. Mahmoud A. Nafi', 21 April 1980, London. Attorney, business man. Assassinated in his office in London. Two Libyans tried for the crime and sentenced to life in prison. Abdul Jalil al-'Arif, April 1980, Rome. Business man, victim of Gaddafi's campaign of "physical liquidation" of opponents abroad. Mohammed M. Ramadan, 11 April, 1980, London. Journalist and announcer at BBC, Arabic section. Assassinated by Gaddafi operatives outside Regent Park mosque. Libyan regime refused him burial in Libya and returned the body to be buried in London. Two Libyans were tried for the crime and in Sep. '80, sentenced to life in prison. Abdul Aziz al-Gharably, April, 1983, arrested. Student, Tripoli. Suspected of membership in political party. Died in Jan. '84 as a result of torture and lack of medical care. Rasheed M. Ka'bar, 16 April 1984, Tripoli. Student. Arrested in Nov. '80, following unrest at the College of Engineering. Accused of being follower of Sheikh Bishti (Mosque leader, tortured and killed by A. Zadma and Revolutionary Committees.) Sentenced to death by Revolutionary Committees, and executed at the College of Pharmacy, Tripoli. University students forcefully gathered to view execution. Hafed. al-Madani, 16 April 1984, Tripoli. Student. Arrested following unrest at Engineering College, Nov. '80. Executed by public hanging at the College of Agriculture, Tripoli. Mustafa R. an-Nuwairy, April, 1984. Student. Elected President of Student Union, academic year 1975-76. Elected Secretary of Benghazi chapter of Student Union. Expelled from Benghazi University and arrested in 1976. Arrested again in 1980 and sentenced to death and executed by the Revolutionary Committees in front of university students and staff. Jibril A. ad-Dinali, 6 April 1985, Former police officer. Member of NFSL, shot by Gaddafi agents in Bonn, Germany. The best known account of a public execution is that of Sadek Shwehdi. It is well known because it was broadcast repeatedly on national television. Thousands of pupils, the youngest just 6 years old, were herded into Benghazi's basketball stadium to watch in 1984. Pulling on the hanging man's legs later made Huda Ben Amer one of Colonel Gaddafi's most trusted elite. Story here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8363587/Huda-the-executioner-Libyas-devil-in-female-form.html Video here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/jul/18/libya-muammar-gaddafi?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3486

I didn't say he was guilty did I? To get an arrest warrant you need to provide substantial evidence of wrong doing. In the UK an arrest warrant can be issued if information (in writing) is laid before a judge or justice of the peace that a person has committed or is suspected of having committed an offence. Such arrest warrants can only be issued for someone over 18 if:1-the offence to which the warrant relates is an indictable offence or is punishable with imprisonment, or 2-the person's address is not sufficiently established for a summons to be served on him. (e.g. you are on the run like Gaddafi) You never know, when Gaddafi gets to trial we may find he is completely innocent, all these people may have shot, burned and buried themselves in mass graves. Gaddafi isn't the sovereign leader, he claims he has no role in government and only offers "spiritual guidance to the people". What choice did they have apart from an uprising, it's not like they could vote for a change in government is it? Even saying you didn't like Gaddafi got you 3 years in prison which many did not survive. The rebels are the population of the towns? They simply started fighting where they lived and defended their own property and families. Human shields? Utter nonsense. Libyan laws were set up by 1 self appointed dictator who killed whoever he pleased both within his borders and across the entire world. There would be some legitimacy to what you say if Libya had a democratically elected government that passed laws in a democratic way, it never has. A law decreed by a dictator for his own benefit has no logical basis or moral standing. As far as I can tell anything Gaddafi didn't like was treasonous. e.g. Joining a political party = execution Talking to a foreigner about politics = 3 years imprisonment Many of these executions were public, people were hung and shot in town squares or had their arms and legs chopped off. Pictures of this were transmitted on state television. Does this sound normal to you? Lol you have a very warped sense of justice. Do these people get a trial first or is it simply left at the discretion of the commanding officer to shoot anyone he pleases? Would you be happy to live in a country with a dictator that summarily executes anyone who shows the slightest disagreement?

I don't see why I need sources for well established history but have added them below e.g Idi Amin and Gadaffi were such good friends Amin married Gads daughter! I read the discussion and you don't explain yourself and the 9/11 conspiracy rant wasn't really relevant so again....... You said Jamahiriya was a democratic system? Definition: Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. As Jamahiriya works completely contradictory to this, I am a little confused and hoped you could explain why you think it's democratic. Libya has been a 1 party state since the 70's, has never held elections and has 10-20% of the population employed in internal security 'monitoring' the general population and preventing dissent. People who formed a political party were executed, and talking about politics with foreigners was punishable by up to 3 years in jail. Could you also explain why the International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants on 27 June 2011 for Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam, and his brother-in-law Abdullah al-Senussi, concerning crimes against humanity. To issue an arrest warrant there must be convincing evidence of wrong doing. The ICC cites acts of "indiscriminate killings of civilians" and "trial for the murder and persecution of demonstrators by Libyan security forces since the uprising based in the country’s east that began in February." Source for Gaddafi Elimination of dissent and campaign against Berber people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#Elimination_of_dissent Source for Gaddafi and international terrorism. It's a very long list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_under_Gaddafi#Gaddafi_and_international_terrorism Source for Gaddafi's support of dictators, corrupt regimes, war criminals etc in Africa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_under_Gaddafi#Africa

It certainly argues like you Walker lol :D BOT: You just said it was Monday!! ME: No you said it was Monday. BOT: You aren't making sense :(. ME: You don't know what day of the week it is. BOT: No. ME: Ahhh so you admit it? BOT: Yes! ME: So what day is it? BOT: Monday! Why? ME: No it's Wednesday. BOT: But that isn't a flavor. ME: It's a day of the week, we were talking about what day it is. BOT: Which word? ME: You said it was Monday, it isn't it's Wednesday. BOT: No, I said it was SUNDAY. ME: It's Wednesday. BOT: I'm telling you, SUNDAY. ME: It's Wednesday, the 7th September 2011. Check your calendar. BOT: No, it's Monday morning :(. ME: It's Wednesday, the 7th September 2011, 21:41 UK time. BOT: No, it's Monday morning :(. ME: It's Wednesday, the 7th September 2011, 21:42 UK time. BOT: No, it's Monday morning :(. ME: It's Wednesday, the 7th September 2011, 21:43 UK time. BOT: No, it's Monday morning :(. ME: I have checked with Greenwich. It's Wednesday, the 7th September 2011, 21:45 (GMT +1). BOT: Ok. ME: So you accept it's Wednesday? BOT: Yes. ME: What changed your mind? BOT: I never did change my mind.

Yes but FM WAS better than AM...... Your clownish hydrogen storage system in floating gas bags "way up in the sky" is NOT better than the alternatives and you can't demonstrate any practical way for it to work. FM in your example was clearly demonstrated to be a better and practical technology. You have not achieved this for the hydrogen energy storage system that you proposed. Go ahead and provide scientific evidence, calculations, drawings and engineering solutions and convince us otherwise. If you can...........

"Jacobson suggests in the book (as well as in recent TV interviews) that the (Roswell) UFO was, in reality, a Nazi-inspired Soviet spy plane manned by midget teen-agers. Josef Stalin purportedly had Josef Mengele provide surgically-tweaked mini-pilots who were supposed to disembark from the aircraft, pretend to be space aliens, and scare Americans to death." Hmm sounds like a good read... I'm sure the lady makes lots of money from it. How they do all this with a straight face amazes me. I would have to soak my head in a bucket of botox to tell tales like that.

@ [GLT] Myke Great video - I have not seen that one. But what happens when you put a conspiracy theorist in a vacuum? lol Maybe without air pressure you would not be able to hear them talking nonsense? ---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ---------- Bart Winfield Sibrel is a rather distasteful attention seeker. It's shameful that a man like Buzz Aldrin could be insulted like that. http://www.clavius.org/bibsibrel.html

No they didn't because steam vehicles and engines were commonplace and had already replaced horses in many roles. Internal combustion initially replaced steam vehicles, not horses. (PS it was Karl Benz who invented the first gasoline powered car, Daimler/Mercedes jumped aboard later. There were lots of steam powered cars around at the time that were awful to operate and maintain.) I buy shares occasionally and I have put some money into a wind turbine manufacturer because they make a healthy profit from government grants. Political pressure from people like Walker who rave about this like it is some sort of religion results in the grants increasing year on year and so do the shares, so it's good for me. My nightmare is the withdrawal of the grants, if wind power had to stand on it's own two feet, financially it would fail. I have put a larger sum into the nuclear division of EDF who are about to start construction of the new plants in the UK. We will see what generates the biggest return - I'll let you know in 5 years ;)

Ghadaffi isn't on it apparently, it's his mercenaries, family and truckloads of gold and cash to keep him in fancy dress in exile. He probably will not get time to spend though lol. @ joogrr - any chance of a response to post #96?

The rivals to the US in the space race were the USSR. If the moon landings were faked, the USSR would know about it and they would have told everyone to embarrass the US. That's the best evidence there is, you don't even have to look at a moon photo. When the US beat them to 1st manned lunar orbit and 1st manned lunar landing the USSR cancelled their manned lunar space program and told everyone they weren't interested in going there in the first place. If it was faked they could have screamed fake, they didn't.

I see you tolerate no dissent too? :D There have been so many off topic posts, including many of yours, I don't think it matters any more. I think it's correct to challenge inconsistency don't you? I probably should have quoted it - quote added.

Ummm it tells you under where it says 27x56cm pixel? "What is visible in an image is not simply a matter of the size of a pixel projected onto the surface. Sun angle and direction are also important factors, as is the exposure level. When the Sun is high above the horizon differences in surface brightness are enhanced, and when the Sun is low, surface roughness is more obvious. Linear features are enhanced when they lie perpendicular to the direction of the Sun, and tend to disappear when parallel. When an image is underexposed or overexposed, contrast and detail suffer."

Wait for it! Wait for it! :D Nice big zoomable picture here: http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc_browse/view/M168000580R

Well said :D

and If Jamahiriya is a democratic system could you explain exactly how that works? Libya has been a 1 party state since the 70's, has never held elections and has 10-20% of the population employed in internal security 'monitoring' the general population and preventing dissent . I'm not quite familiar with that form of democracy - please explain. It is widely reported, official records were found and photographed and participants openly laugh about how all the Gadaffi 'supporters' were paid to turn up and protest. Did you not know about this? Elections are going to be held within 18 months. No doubt someone from the old regime will stand and promise to reinstate Gadaffi. Everyone can then vote for that can't they? If you are correct I'm sure it will happen. I'm also concerned about Captain Gadaffi's record in Africa. Are you sure this is someone you want to support? Gaddafi sent thousands of troops to fight against Tanzania on behalf of Idi Amin. About 600 Libyan soldiers lost their lives attempting to defend the collapsing presidency of Amin. The Soviet Union also armed Amin and East German Stasi agents came to build Amin's repression machinery. Amin was eventually exiled from Uganda to Libya where he lived till 1980. Gaddafi also aided Jean-Bédel Bokassa, the Emperor of the Central African Empire. Gaddafi supported Soviet protege Haile Mariam Mengistu, who was later convicted for one of the deadliest genocides in history. Gaddafi's World Revolutionary Center (WRC) near Benghazi become a training center for groups backed by Gaddafi. Graduates in power as of 2011 include Blaise Compaoré of Burkina Faso and Idriss Déby of Chad. Gaddafi trained and supported Liberian dictator Charles Taylor, who was indicted by the Special Court for Sierra Leone for war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the conflict in Sierra Leone. Foday Sankoh, the founder of Revolutionary United Front, was also Gaddafi's graduate. According to Douglas Farah, "The amputation of the arms and legs of men, women, and children as part of a scorched-earth campaign was designed to take over the region's rich diamond fields and was backed by Gaddafi, who routinely reviewed their progress and supplied weapons". Gaddafi intervened militarily in the Central African Republic in 2001 to protect his ally Ange-Félix Patassé. Patassé signed a deal giving Libya a 99-year lease to exploit all of that country's natural resources, including uranium, copper, diamonds, and oil.

Lets try pictures: Hydrogen vs electricity, efficiency as an automotive fuel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Efficiency_as_an_automotive_fuel

That page, for your info, is a list of plausible methods of storing excess energy from wind farms. That is precisely what you wanted to do? Your whole point was to use hydrogen as an energy store for periods of calm weather when the turbines were not working? You therefore have to have it stored near power generating machinery in a form that can be used to generate power quickly. Floating in giant gas bags "way up in the sky" isn't good enough. It would have to be stored under high pressure or liquefied to be be usable in generating equipment. It gets worse, the best gas turbine is only 60% efficient so you lose 40% more energy there. We have already shown that "The AC-to-AC efficiency of hydrogen storage has been shown to be in the range of 20-25%". As you don't seem to understand basic arithmetic I will explain just what that means. It means that this is a ridiculously bad and inefficient way of storing energy. You are losing more than 3/4 of the energy you wanted to store. That means you would need 80% more wind turbines than you started out with - that's a very big number. So you have a very expensive and resource hungry energy store that does not really store energy? What's the point of it all? Oh yes you do, when the wind stops blowing you need to spin up mechanical generation and fast - within seconds or the power grid fails. You clearly have no understanding of the simple mechanical engineering involved or the nature of electrical energy supply. Can I ask how these giant gas bags and cables will respond to bad weather? You are already aware that hydrogen at atmospheric pressure occupies 11 cubic litres per gram? That should have allowed you to do a calculation. The Hindenburg had a capacity of 18.18 metric tonnes of hydrogen. That would keep a power station burning for about 1/2 hour. You would need 336 bags that big to supply 1 power station for a week. Obviously not a student of aerodynamics or physics either? Could we have some dimensions for your gas bags? Also please could you calculate the wind resistance? A large bag full of H2 would also be able to generate a considerable amount of lift . 18.18 tonnes of H2 will generate 224 tonnes of lift at STP, add in the weight of the bag ~ 50 tonnes and you are still left with 174 tonnes to restrain, how would you anchor them and get the hydrogen in and out with all those forces at work?(Imagine yourself in a boat attached to several large balloons in a strong wind, don't imagine a UAV, that's just silly) That's right, I'm thinking. You are letting your imagination run away with itself. It recently cost the Norwegian government $62 million for 1 deep sea turbine. Your scheme will require millions of them. You will need 1500 of the largest turbines to replace just 1 average gas fired power station, plus another 1200 to generate hydrogen for your energy store = 2700 turbines. Lets quarter the cost through savings of mass production: 2700 x 15.5 million = $41.8 billion to replace just 1 power station. Also you seem to think a deep sea wind turbine contains 1 moving part which is nonsense? Can I ask what will keep your floating platforms in place? If they aren't tethered to the sea bed (That requires deep diving installation and maintenance which costs millions BTW) They will need thrusters operating 24hrs to keep them in position? None of it adds up or makes much sense does it Walker. ---------- Post added at 02:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 AM ---------- [/color] There are only around 40 H2 cars on lease to the public. It's the Honda FCX. The fuel tank is at 700bars, should be interesting when one crashes or sets on fire. The criticism of H2 further down in that article shows a general trend towards electric cars. Governments and manufacturers are losing interest. In all of these articles the subject of 700bar+ fuel tanks, H2 infrastructure and storage etc are carefully avoided. It's not really there yet.

Is hydrogen a good energy store in the first place? "The AC-to-AC efficiency of hydrogen storage has been shown to be in the range of 20-25% [16], rendering hydrogen storage unsuitable for anything but special (mobile) applications." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage Are any of those storage methods really feasible. Grand ideas but do they work on the scale of a nation state? The wiki page seems to suggest that underground storage in caves / oil wells is the best solution so you would need local items like that as well. In fact the main problem is storage. a). because it's very costly in terms of energy to compress, liquefy and store hydrogen. b). typically 1% will be lost each day to evaporation from cryogenic tanks c). because of the poor energy density by volume. I don't think it would be worth the effort, the return in energy is very small and no one is going to make any money out of it, so it isn't going to happen.

Tidal power requires a location with a large change in tidal volume and fast flow. There are not many suitable sites that meet the criteria. I don't think any wind farms have been put in such places because the extra stress placed on the structures would not be desirable and the sea bed is usually rocky so you can't build into it. Remember there is a difference between tidal and wave power - different concepts, different machines. It would be better to place strings of wave generators between the wind turbines but not sure if that ones feasible. They are a surface structure like strings of sausages and that would increase the navigation hazards of any wind farm considerably. There is a picture of a combined wind / wave device on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power Scotland's Pelamis wave power generator: I can't think of a better ship / boat catcher lol.

They are on the sea bed. All the ones you see today are in water no more than 30m deep and are built on piles driven into the seabed. To date there have only been 2 tethered floating wind turbine test rigs and they seem to have been successful. The Hywind off Norway was due to be decommissioned and examined last year. It cost $62 million to build and deploy the single turbine. As yet no one has built or tested a free floating deep sea turbine. If you look at post #20 I have written something about the problems of hydrogen storage and use that walker may not realise. We are a long way from replacing fossil fuels with it because the storage technology isn't good enough yet. It may be possible to create hydrogen from deep sea windfarms and use it in a power station but that is science fiction for now. Don't expect to be filling up your car with hydrogen any time soon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Hydrogen In 2009 the U.S. Secretary of Energy, Stephen Chu, stated that fuel cell hydrogen vehicles "will not be practical over the next 10 to 20 years". He cited difficulties in the development of the required infrastructure to distribute hydrogen as a justification for cutting research funds.[77] The National Hydrogen Association and other hydrogen groups criticized the decision.[78] Secretary Chu told MIT's Technology Review that he is skeptical about hydrogen's use in transportation because "the way we get hydrogen primarily is from reforming [natural] gas. ... You're giving away some of the energy content of natural gas. ... So that's one problem. ... [For] transportation, we don't have a good storage mechanism yet. ... The fuel cells aren't there yet, and the distribution infrastructure isn't there yet. ... In order to get significant deployment, you need four significant technological breakthroughs. ... If you need four miracles, that's unlikely: saints only need three miracles".[33] Congress reversed the funding cuts in its appropriations bill for 2010,[7] but the Department of Energy plans to decrease funding for Fuel Cell Vehicle development in its 2012 budget.[79] In July 2011, the Chairman and CEO of General Motors, Daniel Akerson, stated that while the cost of hydrogen fuel cell cars is decreasing: "The car is still too expensive and probably won't be practical until the 2020-plus period, I don't know." (Not sure why they are not considering using wind farms to create hydrogen instead of methane, possibly interference from the oil companies? But that would only solve 1 of the above problems.) ---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ---------- Walker you don't understand the science. I'm not concerned about hydrogen explosions or safety, although that is one reason why they are actually slowly abandoning the idea of H2 fuelled cars. I was talking about the equivalent energy densities when you compare hydrogen with other fuels. Hydrogen has to be compressed or stored under cryogenic conditions to be useful. E.g. there is actually about 64% more hydrogen in a litre of gasoline (116 grams hydrogen) than there is in a litre of pure liquid hydrogen (71 grams hydrogen). The carbon in the gasoline also contributes to the energy of combustion. Litre for litre you need far more hydrogen than gasoline......you get it now? You need an awfully big gas tank or you need to compress the hydrogen to store it in the same space. That liquid hydrogen needs to be kept at -235C to stop it boiling off. So the car could not be left parked for more than 3 days or the fuel would start to boil away. That is why they are giving up on it as an everyday fuel. It's cannot be stored or transported in a convenient way. Can you imagine the problems of cars with cryogenic fuel tanks or compressed H2 at 10,000psi? You can't put things like that in the hands of ordinary people. Even a metal hydride tank is large, heavy and expensive, it's also takes 8 hours at 250psi to recharge one. Gas bags??? Gas bags??? Are you aware that 1 gram of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure takes up 11 cubic litres of space? And you think the best solution is to tow it around in gas bags? This car was converted during the war to use methane instead of petrol. That bag gave it a range of 50 miles. The equivalent hydrogen bag would be 4x - 6x as large. Do you get the problem now or do I have to draw more pictures?

Well if it's viable I would agree with you. But.....will there actually be enough excess energy from wind turbines? Will it be commercially viable to extract hydrogen by this method etc etc there are many, many questions still to answer. Quite often in this debate you find people have nice sounding ideas but the facts don't actually stack up. Also this: is partially nonsense. The storage problems associated with hydrogen are well known. It cannot be stored like any other fuel because of it's energy / density ratio. It is precisely the difficulty of storing hydrogen that has limited it's use in the past and the scientific research is still not complete and a good technological solution is still not available. To store the equivalent volume of hydrogen in a gasometer to replace methane (I'm talking energy equivalents by volume here) you would need 4 times (probably more) the capacity. The reason you dont see hydrogen cars on the market yet is because with current technology the hydrogen storage system would weigh half as much as the car. Its universally accepted that to use hydrogen it must be intensely pressurised to several hundred atmospheres and stored in a pressure vessel. In liquid form, hydrogen can only be stored under cryogenic temperatures. These options are not practical for everyday use. One alternative is metal hydrides. These materials have good energy density by volume, although their energy density by weight is often worse than the leading hydrocarbon fuels. This technology is still in it's infancy. You seem to believe you are replacing like with like - that is not the case. Keep on dreaming Walker.