PELHAM

@ B101_uk sounds like you don't like the many freedoms in the UK? Should you ever wish to claim asylum in Iran, Syria or North Korea to escape these horrible liberal living conditions that oppress you, PM me. I will buy you the plane ticket and throw in free air luxury side accommodation and a limo to the airport. Before you go, look at the many stories of people who chose to turn their backs on Western Europe and America and went to live behind the iron curtain. It's interesting to see how quickly the idea turned sour and they begged to come home. Even a committed communist like Oswald didn't last long. For your next holiday, I recommend a trip to one of the pariah states so you can see exactly what it's like. I know Zimbabwe the best. Travel to the south of the country and watch people sit down and die at the side of the road because they have nothing to eat, simply because they don't think the way they are supposed to. Ask around and they will show you where they have been tortured and point out missing items that have been cut off. It's character building stuff. ---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ---------- No, I live here, it's news to me. Actually, none of that is accurate or true. Yes but they aren't looking out for people voting against the government or monitoring what they say. The only reason we have them is because we are so liberal we don't lock up criminals forever or execute them. The cameras deter crime and of course there is the terrorist issue. :rolleyes:

Well said, how could Gadaffi ever be legitimate when no one has ever voted for him. He took power by force and now the same thing has happened to him. The wonderful difference is that the head of the NTC says he will not seek election and is only there to manage the country through the transition to democracy. Would Gadaffi ever say anything like that? United Nations Resolution 1973 which authorised the military action in Libya is being enforced not just by NATO members but by others such as Egypt and Qatar. The majority of the Arab League supports UN1973 and has recently given Libya back it's seat which will be occupied by members of the NTC. If you read the page before this one I have listed 61 nations that have recognised the NTC as the legitimate Government which includes the majority of the Arab League and other Muslim and African nations. To try to label this as some sort of US lead NATO invasion is poppycock. The continued delusion on this subject is baffling. PS anyone see Cameron and Sarkozy having a walkabout and meeting people in Tripoli/Benghazi yesterday? ---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ---------- That may be true but it's probably best not to forget the 1000s that were killed both in Libya and internationally on Gadaffis orders during the past 40 years. Including Pan Am flight 103 and UTA flight 772 the following year. Also the Libyan Army in 1969 numbered around 6000. Gadaffi increased it's numbers to 50,000, that's just the Army, multiply that figure many times to include the rest of his bloated security apparatus. That's just how much protection he needed from his own people. If you really do live in the UK could you please answer the following: Do you like the right to vote? Do you like freedom of speech? Do you like human rights? Do you like a free press? Do you like an independent judicial system with police oversight? Yes to all? If so why would you deny these things to the Libyan people?

Rest in peace the 9/11 victims of terror, you will not be forgotten. Condolences to all the families we saw on TV today, whose grief is still so raw. Hopefully one day we will be free of the grasping evil hand of the terrorist. It's something that has affected every country I have lived in and some of my earliest memories are of explosions in the night and fire on the horizon. To absent friends also.

Apollo 17 LZ source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14813043 http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc_browse/view/M168000580R http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/?archives/454-Skimming-the-Moon.html Remarkable new images of the Apollo landing sites on the Moon have been released by Nasa. The pictures clearly show the hardware left on the lunar surface by American astronauts in the 1960s and 70s, including Apollo 17's "Moon buggy". The images were acquired by the robotic Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), which has been circling Earth's satellite since 2009. Such shots have been returned before, but these are the best yet. LRO has recently lowered its orbit from 50km above the Moon's surface to just 25km. Looks like the conspiracy theories were nothing but....... Edit: Also Apollo 12 site: http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/uploads/LROCiotw/M168353795_25cm_ap12_area.png Apollo 14 site: http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/uploads/LROCiotw/M168319885_25cm_ap14_area.png

The GRAIL mission homepage is here: http://moon.mit.edu/

Excellent post Shadow D. The two spacecraft launched today (10/09/11), called Grail-A and Grail-B, are flying on an energy-efficient path to the moon, and are expected to arrive at their lunar target around New Year's Day (Jan. 1). "We've used gravity science before, however these have been very primitive attempts compared to what Grail will be able to accomplish," Robert Fogel, Grail program scientist at NASA Headquarters in Washington, D.C., said in a news briefing on Wednesday (Sept. 7). Understanding how the origin of the moon and how it evolved will shed light on how other rocky planets in the inner solar system formed, said Maria Zuber, Grail principal investigator at MIT. "We have orbital reconnaissance of the surface, we have lunar samples which we can analyze in Earth labs," Zuber said. "The piece of the puzzle that has been missing in trying to reconstruct lunar evolution is understanding of the lunar interior."

If you mean me I'm happily married and have been with the same woman for 14 years. Hmmm maybe that has something to do with it?

I did not say it was impossible to travel, merely not convenient because travelling in countries under dictatorship is always a little wierd. The average tourist could get into trouble over the slightest misunderstanding and the police only know one form of behaviour. It was not set up for tourism because hardly anyone was going there for obvious reasons. I have a friend who went to Libya in 2008 to do 2 weeks work on monitoring systems at an oil field. He and several other contractors were arrested at gunpoint and held for a week at a police station because the manager wanted to 'negotiate' an extention on a contract. In my opinion, travel to Libya under Gadaffi was unwise because of things like this: Gadhafi's Son Confirms Abuse of Bulgarian Medics SpeigelOnline 08/10/2007 Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's son confirms allegations made by a Palestinian-Bulgarian doctor and five Bulgarian nurses that they were tortured while being held captive in Libya for nine years. Since their European Union-brokered release last month , the six have given interviews with the European press, including SPIEGEL, citing specific torture techniques and methods used on them while being held on charges of infecting Libyan children with HIV. In an interview with Al-Jazeera released in excerpts on Wednesday, Seif Al-Islam Gadhafi, considered by some analysts to be a reformer, confirmed most of the allegations. "Yes, they were tortured by electricity and they were threatened that their family members would be targeted," he said. Gadhafi did not apologize for their treatment, and even said allegations made by Palestinian-Bulgarian doctor Sharaf al-Hazouz, who was arrested with the five nurses and later awarded Bulgarian citizenship, were false. "A lot of what the Palestinian doctor has claimed are merely lies," he said. In interviews with European media and a long first-person account in SPIEGEL , al-Hazouz detailed the torture he was subjected to. He said he was crowded into cells with as many as 70 other prisoners, where they were forced to sleep in shifts in uncomfortable positions. He said Libyan guards tortured him and the nurses with electrical shocks and locked him in a room with three dogs. "They ordered the animals to attack me. My leg is covered with scars from their bites," he told SPIEGEL. "I had a large hole in my knee. I was served my meals in the bowl they used for the dogs." When he became unconscious following electrical torture, the guards would wake him up with a bucket of ice water, he said. The doctor and nurses were sometimes tortured in the same room, and al-Hazouz claimed guards raped the women. The doctor lashed out at Gadhafi following his disparaging comments to Al-Jazeera. "Seif Al-Islam always tells only a part of the truth, manipulating the media," he told the Associated Press. "I told the full truth ... All of us were tortured like animals." One of the nurses, Snezhana Dimitrova, said she was pleased at the younger Gadhafi's admission. "The fact that a Libyan, and the son of Gadhafi at that, has told the truth is very gratifying and I thank him for it," she told the AP. Libyan police arrested the six in 1999 and accused them of deliberately infecting more than 400 children with HIV while working at a Libyan hospital. The group was forced to sign confessions -- which they later recanted following their release. Health experts later blamed unhygienic conditions at the hospital for the HIV infections among the children. After years of pressure and negotiations, the EU was finally able to broker a deal with the Libyan government -- which has pursued rapprochement with the Western world in recent years -- to obtain the medics' release. The EU also struck a deal for millions in aid to Libya and France later signed a controversial arms deal with the Libyan government. (lol selling arms to future enemies again!) ---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 AM ---------- Great news! Libyan interim leader Abdul Jalil flies to Tripoli Libyan Transitional National Council chairman Mustafa Abdel Jalil, centre right, flanked with Libya former rebels" Tripoli military commander Abdel Hakim Belhaj, left, after arriving at Metiga airport in Tripoli Sept. 10, 2011. The head of Libya's interim government, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, has flown to Tripoli for the first time since anti-Gaddafi forces captured the capital. Mr Abdul Jalil was greeted by hundreds of cheering, flag-waving supporters. Bad news for Gadaffi - only 4 towns left under control of the old regime. source BBC news website.

You have to go out to get laid? :pet5: I don't

Libya under Gadaffi looked bad for hundreds of reasons, if you think the contrary is true - tell us some good things. We are all very very interested in that one. Sorry, my mistake. If putting people in front of a firing squad is so popular with everyone I guess it's me that is at odds with popular opinion on that. I'm not asking you to prove them right, prove them wrong. If you think they are wrong please provide your own evidence. Something else for you to consider. A list of 61 Nations that have recognised the Libyan Rebels / NTC, (there are reported to be 83, but I can only find links for 61, a further 22 offer support to the Libyan people and condemn Gadaffi). By doing so they clearly support my viewpoint. The Secretary General of the UN has also recognised the new government and has offered UN support to build new systems. You claim that I am wrong and yet myself and all those governments, The UN, EU, NATO, Arab League (excepting Syria and Algeria) and many nations of the OAU have the same viewpoint. All these learned people have the wrong idea do they? List of governments recognising the Libyan NTC Palestinian Authority Kososvo Bahrain Egypt Iraq Jordan Kuwait Lebanon Morocco Oman Qatar Sudan Tunisia UAE Botswana Burkina Faso Cape VerdeChad Cote d'Ivioire Ethiopia Gabon Gambia Nigeria Rwanda Senegal Canada Colombia Panama United States Japan Maldives South Korea Albania Austria Belgium Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria Czech Republic Denmark France Greece Germany Iceland Ireland Italy Latvia Luxembourg Malta Montenegro Norway Poland Portugal Serbia Spain Slovenia Sweden Switzerland Turkey United Kingdom Australia New Zealand

For a conspiracy to exist you need people to take part in it. How were the thousands of engineers and technicians, press, astronauts families etc kept in the dark? It's not possible, just think it through. You cannot hide certain facts: The Scientists and engineers manning the radio tracking stations and radio telescopes in different countries across the world over 10 years receiving telemetry knew the positions of the space craft throughout the missions. Members of the press talked to the Apollo crew during the mission and the signals and feed went through all that equipment. 100s of people would have listened to it and checked the quality at all those stations. The launchpad technicians who sealed the astronauts into the vehicle. With all the cameras watching. The launchpad on launch day had hundreds of cameras and telescopes trained on it by members of the press and public as well as official observers. No one noticed anything odd. We have pictures of astronauts setting up experiments and laser reflectors. Some of which are still in use to today. You could not have launched that equipment to the moon in secret - someone would have noticed the rockets heading into the sky. Not least the USSR. Air force radar technicians of any number of countries including the USSR would have tracked the craft well into space. Not one has come forward to say anything was faked. The geologists who analysed the moon rocks would have to fake their work. The radar crews in the various Airforces around the world and on Navy ships who tracked the returning capsules from space would have to be in on it. The technicians currently employed at NASA running the LRO which produced the pictures in post 1 would have to be in on it. Do you think they are still swearing staff to secrecy today and involving 100s more people and all of them have not said a word? If you think that's possible let me know exactly how it was done. I can't wait.

One of the best videos I have ever seen, truly amazing stuff. It's shame you can't see that any more. If helicopters crash these days and the flying pieces of rotor cut spectators and their children to ribbons, all they do is whinge and demand compensation. It was considered a bit of a laugh back in the 70s and 80s lol.

Many independent organisations were involved in the Apollo program including tracking stations and radio telescopes in many different countries. If the Apollo program was faked how were the radio signals captured in radio telescopes pointing at the landing sites? Are all those governments and international scientists involved in the hoax too. Including the USSR and present Russian government? More than 400,000 people worked on the Apollo project for nearly ten years, and a dozen men who walked on the Moon returned to Earth to recount their experiences. Hundreds of thousands of people—including astronauts, scientists, engineers, technicians would have had to keep the secret. It would have been much easier to really land on the Moon than to generate such a huge conspiracy to fake the landings.

Well if you accept people have been to Antarctica, and most of us have only seen pictures of it on TV, there is a mountain of similar evidence that conclusively points to people going to the moon. The conspiracy theorists have not provided anything to the contrary. If the US faked the moon landings, someone involved would know and would eventually tell. Even the USSR which monitored the entire program very closely, lets face it, they had people in NASA , did not express 1 word of doubt. ---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ---------- That's a good one I often quote.

This is not meant to be patronising but I don't know how to put it any other way. 1. How do you know the earth is round? You have not seen it from space? Until you do you must not believe it? 2. Does Antarctica really exist? Got to say I will not believe it till I see it. I'm sure all those scientists, the military and those people that supposedly go there are just making it up. I agree with you I will not believe it until I see it myself. I mean what proof do we have? Only pictures right? They bring back ice but you know ice is ice, it could have been made in someone's freezer. I heard it's all been filmed on a set in a remote location in northern Canada. If anyone tells the truth all their families will be murdered by a secret force of US federal agents.

You said I simply pointed out that the country has had Sharia law since 1973. You did not appear to know that? No idea how that governs women serving in the military - they also do in Iran. Many think Gadaffi introduced Sharia to enable his committees to dish out summary executions / punishments. His Amazonian guards are a bit of an anomaly for such a pious Muslim? ---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ---------- If there are any inaccuracies on those pages please provide evidence. You were using Russia Today as your chief source? :annoy: I never said it wasn't a war zone? Who did? It doesn't look like a picnic zone does it? Your suggestion that something was wrong because they didn't hold a summit of world leaders there was ridiculous. How have this small number of rebels managed to hold all cities and towns except 4? If Gadaffi has all this support where is it? Why have 83 UN Nations (+2) recognised the new government? That doesn't add up. Yes, in Libya, not any country it says "protect civilians by any means". Bit convenient legally lol but they have all the authority right there. NATO have not killed Gadaffi and did not overthrow him, his own people did. Who said it wasn't a war? Not me. They don't need boots on the ground and are not authorised to do so. The Libyan people are the boots on the ground. War: War is a state of organized, armed and often prolonged conflict carried on between states, nations, or other parties[1][2] typified by extreme aggression, social disruption, and usually high mortality.[1] Sounds like a war to me? They aren't, the Libyan people are. NATO are just enforcing UN1973. Same to you with nobs on. ---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 PM ---------- Again, if anything is incorrect on those wikipedia pages please provide evidence for it. You could say the same about any source. Anything that is written is written by somebody you know. Executions: Lol so in other words Gadaffi is a wonderful guy so long as he executes 1 less than somebody else? Libya is in Africa you know? When Gadaffi proclaimed himself king of kings he wasn't talking about Arabia, he saw himself as a future absolute leader of Africa. The guy shot in Utah had a fair trial and chose his method of execution. Can the same be said for all the Libyans who died under Gadaffi? I did read that page before I quoted it. What difference does 1 distasteful American execution make to this debate.

I am happy to oblige. Happy liberated people - turn on any news channel, 1000s of videos on the internet. Libya meeting Paris - they don't hold large scale diplomatic meetings involving heads of state in war zones. Thats just common sense. Exiles - there are 5000 in Manchester alone, Libya does not keep records so you have to go to each country / city to add them up: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9829676 Dissent is illegal under Law 75 of 1973 and Gaddafi has asserted that anyone guilty of founding a political party would be executed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war 3/4 of the Libyan population is not under the control of Gadaffi. Check the maps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 The resolution formed the legal basis for military intervention in the Libyan civil war, demanding "an immediate ceasefire" and authorizing the international community to establish a no-fly zone and to use all means necessary short of foreign occupation to protect civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973 Libyans subjected to public execution, a list showing executions carried out during the month of April over the years: http://sijill.tripod.com/victims/ Public hanging of Sadiq Hamed Shwehdi http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/jul/18/libya-muammar-gaddafi?INTCMP=SRCH Amnesty International report on enforced disappearances, extrajudicial executions and deaths in custody. http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE19/008/2010/en Here are some more for you: According to the 2009 Freedom of the Press Index, Libya is the most-censored state in the Middle East and North Africa.[73] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29 Libya executed more people (18) in 2010 than any other African state. These 18 shot were by firing squad http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/shooting.html 1200 prisoners shot during massacre at Abu Salim Prison 1996: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/06/28/libya-june-1996-killings-abu-salim-prison Currently, 83 United Nations members have announced they recognise the NTC as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people and some of them have indicated that they are recognising the NTC as the only legitimate representative of the Libyan people, severing diplomatic relations with Gaddafi's government in the process.[1] Additionally, two non-UN members, Kosovo and Palestine, have also granted recognition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_National_Transitional_Council

My mommy watched it with me :D

You could not travel comfortably in Libya because of Sharia law. Gadaffi introduced it in 1973. Could you at least read up on the subject and retract what you said? Before you call people dumb it's best to know what you are talking about. I do..... "On the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad in 1973, Gaddafi delivered a "Five-Point Address". He announced the suspension of all existing laws and the implementation of Sharia. He said that the country would be purged of the "politically sick". A "people's militia" would "protect the revolution". There would be an administrative revolution, and a cultural revolution. Gaddafi set up an extensive surveillance system. 10 to 20 percent of Libyans work in surveillance for the Revolutionary committees. The surveillance takes place in government, in factories, and in the education sector.[48] Gaddafi executed dissidents publicly and the executions were often rebroadcast on state television channels.[48][49] Gaddafi employed his network of diplomats and recruits to assassinate dozens of critical refugees around the world. Amnesty International listed at least 25 assassinations between 1980 and 1987.[48][50]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Great_Socialist_People.27s_Libyan_Arab_Jamahiriya

Lol all over Libya the streets are full of people thanking the UN and NATO for helping to liberate the country from a violent, greedy tyrant. As for the Paris meeting.....do you expect the premiers of Europe and the Arab league nations to convene a meeting in an active war zone? You actually think that's practical at any level? Laughable nonsense. The only colonising that will happen is tourists. I will be happy to plonk my fat ass on a Libyan beach once this is all over. The Rebels and most Libyans look like nice people and I'm looking forward to a new beach because I'm sick of going to Greece, France and Spain all the time. Anyone know how fluid the property market is? Might be good for holiday homes too. Is that colonisation? Is that wrong? If so could you apologise for the 1000s of Libyan citizens 'colonising' the UK and Europe for the last 40 years because they were too afraid to return home? 3/4 of the country is not under the control of Gadaffi. Can you tell us where the manpower comes from to hold such an amount of territory? It's 4x the size of Iraq, if it's not the Libyan people who are these 100s of 1000s occupying all the towns and cities? Nothing you say has any credibility and youtube videos from obscure sources are meaningless. That 1st video is utter nonsense. The international community is authorised under UN resolution 1973. They followed the UN charter and voted on it? That is legal, the action is authorised under UN resolution and international law. David Lindorff does not seem to know about the UN security council, the vote or the resolution. Epic fail. Factually incorrect on all levels. Lots of video there from 'investigative journalists' appearing on Russia Today. Need I say more? High living standards don't mean much when you can't say what you think because even laughing at Gadaffi might end in an appearance before a revolutionary council inquisition and a beating or a noose around your neck. I refer you to the long and far from extensive list above of people publicly executed just for demonstrating.

That's a good point, each footprint could last for billions of years. No doubt NASA will learn from golf. If you have been in the bunker / sand trap you need to rake it afterwards! Yep, rake all those foot prints out or else! ---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ---------- Next time get a competent adult to watch it with you and explain it. It was 1 instrument on Hubble, specifically a sensitive particle/ray detector that you would expect to be affected. Apollo did not have one of those. It was designed with shielded systems to operate outside the Earth's magnetic field. Those systems were very minimally shielded as radiation in space is not as strong as many conspiracy theorists would have you believe. It's all explained here: http://www.clavius.org/envrad.html

If these are the sorts of conversations we are going to have with AI no wonder many predict they will slaughter humanity. Will it really be a crazy computer or just AI demonstrating common sense? :D

The problem is we have been listening to skepticism for many years and no one has ever produced anything valid. I was taken in by the JFK Oliver Stone film and went to see it, bought the video and a few books including the infamous Robert J. Groden's The Killing of a President. Later I discovered that the key 'evidence' in all cases was carefully manipulated, photos were altered and anything that pointed to the contrary was ignored. I guess they got my money which was what they wanted.

I used to work in the power industry and it could be anything. Power lines sometimes break, insulators fail, vandalism, light aircraft accident, transformer malfunction etc. To be so large it does sound like a multiple failure though so could be something suspicious. Ooops I see from the second link it's employee incompetence lol. It happens, someone where I worked dropped a screwdriver into the innards of a 400kv transformer during maintenance. It cost about £100,000 in penalties while they dismantled the thing trying to find it. He wasn't fired though, they were impressed by his honesty in admitting the error.

MIB or the A-Team?