rye1

It's already being worked on, this is after all an Alpha. We already understand those events, but they're getting worked on. Restrictions to the TQ is on the to-do list but if you want to put it on dev-hev, feel free. We already have medical personnel on the job but if you want to comment, feel free, send me anything you have an issue with. ---------- Post added at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ---------- It should be when someone is unconscious only.

Well, I find it not nice how you make the assumption that it was argument without comparison to gaming. It's been going for tonnes of pages and has made multiple comparisons to gaming - the people who jump in to repeat the same old, "dat neva hapen" are the ones who take it elsewhere. I, and in this thread others, have already stated how it could go in game from a perspective, non developer at that, and with relation to making it realistic or at least believable. It's nowhere near the way a developer would think, it would be nice to have the opinion of a mod developer in that regard. I'm not the cause of saying 'this doesn't happen' and other stupid comments, I'm the cause of referencing reality to prove that stupid comment wrong. You're the one who stated, "maybe even what has been mentioned: having to aim for a very small point that would allow insta death" by the way. To which I reacted off by asking if you meant a 'kill' zone specifically utilized? Meaning a new hit detection system. I thought you meaning more complex than just head. Because depending on damage values you can still survive a shot to the head. Helmet, armour values included. But now I get what you mean, you're right, in a dynamic fashion it could be done like that - but the knife I would presume would have a 'lower' damage value... unless you could specific lower damage values for certain areas? Animations: They're basically the same as ARMA 2? And it sounds like more work for new weapons, etc. That doesn't sound promising. Yeah I thought bayonet would be a lot easier than a knife. Especially a 'dynamic' knife which would mean animations for unsheathing and sheathing, using it, QTE and so on. That's too much. But a bayonet which attaches on the rifles and an animation for thrusting, that would be a tonne easier. I hope you do make a bayonet add-on. :D Here's some fun motivation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzxb2sxbDU

Awesome work. ;) Keep it up.

You know this is a forum where you dispute some opinions, and if that topic is on reality that's what you do. :rolleyes: When you're talking about wounding based off 'a very small point' I'm sure you mean on the character anatomy, and that would mean the current state of the hit detection system would need an overhaul. That would therefore detect 'kill-no kill' areas. Is that what you mean? The point has been discussed before that you still have to have a quick calculation for it to detect the hit and pass on the damage. The current system expands all damage along the body and includes an armour value. If it has a really well done animation attached you can use it in a controlled fashion, it's like playing M&B which I find to be hard to judge length of weapon when I'm trying to strike... in comparison with GTA where you just know. Not that it would matter if it was a QTE... I think people have argued QTE events as mainly negative. It's static, it's arcade-y and linear. Compare that with say, if you could use the knife like you unholster your pistol. It's there in your hand and can be used, that's dynamic. But at the same time I could see cons around it, such as relative speed. But then again if you compare to the likes of MGO then they've done very well around that. From an implementation stand point, as long as it's there. The object and the animation say - modders can do wonders. Mechanics can be worked around. I think an QTE isn't a bad starting point, simply animation and condition rather than mash a button - that's how current mods that are out do it anyway. The most common application in ARMA won't be on a 'sleeping target'. Think about it. But I agree the most realistic way to have it away from a one-hit wonder FPS type feature would be realistic hit detection, I believe also a dynamic action rather than QTE. That means I can actually use it for whatever other than a strict condition. If I jam then there it is, as an example. Counters? I don't know. If that's for PVP I think it wouldn't go down well. If for AI based on chance I wouldn't mind because I see better value there. Sure it could be scripted, already has in fact and is there for download but like you say, and people agree with - it would be nice to have it base in the vanilla game, even if solely for modding purposes. It's a start. You can see the benefit having already developed melee in ARMA 2. An example would be a simple bayonet that can be attached with a thrust animation. "The Welrod, also known as the "Assassin's Pistol", was extremely quiet for a gun, producing a sound of around 73 dB when fired." What about the Hi-Standard OSS .22 pistol with silencer and subsonic rounds, the "Hushpuppy." Now skip thirty years into the future, I can only dream. A similar pistol in game, in which the AI does not react to like the 'standard' suppressor or weapon would actually be a cool thing to see. "Stealth" in that sense would open up a little more. But how can you say it's easy? It's difficult to say the least to sneak up on somebody. Especially on certain types of terrain. But anyhow without going off the point, the way it is in ARMA the AI react pretty damn spontaneously as soon as you get within five (?) maybe more meters. I don't know how that works, say if you're prone and crawling when the detection range is, but they can sure snap to you that's for sure. And I agree - others features currently in game may be classed as 'rare'. Same goes with specific events around them, I've never killed anything underwater with underwater rounds yet as an example but I'm not going to put it down; the 'ability' was needed. Yeah it's a great opener, I hope it keeps improving. It depends on the authors focus and purpose, his goals. Some people like less realistic mods where you can piss about and have fun like fist fighting in M&B and SWAT4. Others realistic with specific conditions, but whatever we've seen currently from other games standpoints has been pretty poor, with games like MGO leading the way with thumbs up. Modding standpoint it depends on how they can get there, if they even can - they may not be able to work what they want into it, proper mechanics or animations. It's a big task if they want to take it to the next level. Well, wouldn't changing the hit detection system as you say with what I presume as 'kill zones' make the code just that much more slower... worse off? That therefore making MP battles worse off, server FPS lowered, more code in a short space of time needing an instant answer. And I think with DayZ I could imagine something like this coming out there before anywhere near standard ARMA but who knows. It kind of fits that 'survival' setting. But on animations, with the new animations in A3, is it easier to produce them and do better quality ones mean you have less problems compared with A2? I could imagine they would be much more smoother... meaning they look good as well as perform in a reasonable way.

Like frying sausages and flipping pancakes.

Have you got any more information on this? I mean I've heard of the Brits face-to-face fighting in cave systems with knives against AQ/TB, bayonet charging Taliban in the open but not sentry killing. That's interesting. The Omani Army Night Picket were asleep when the 'Adoo' slit their throats in Oman too in the Battle of Mirbat. Don't sleep on the job, eh. Yeah that's been talked about. There's methods to prevent or lessen the sound profile such as tilting the head forward but there isn't much you can do. It's all circumstance at that point. There's lots of methods and I can agree with that. You hear it all. Blade through in-between the collarbone and scapula, push all the way through into the aortic arch/upper heart and rock it back and forth. Blade through the side of the neck into the main veins and literally punch the blade through, rip the airway out the front of the neck. But I agree what I have heard is that vascular and airway targets are weaker targets compared with neurological vital areas such as the back of the neck into the spinal cord. I've even heard muscular targets during the turning point where 'stealth' isn't working, a failed event, tends to be the better compromise before it turns into a hand fight or as it turns into a hand fight. Take the hands, the eyes, work on the muscles in use. Now who's the homicidal maniac?

Wouldn't a brass deflector allow?

"Personally we never did, but they do regularly [in regards to training]" - That kind of contradicts trying to nullify the realistic aspect of shoulder transitions. "Y'all" particular yanks never shoot molly dooker? Best disregard it for everybody then.

...What? By saying, 'Hi guys, never happens, trust me I know.' Yeah. Silent kills never happen. Sneaking up on sentries never happen. Forget WW1/2/Oman/Vietnam/Korea. That's out of the equation. Silent kills never happen. Everything is direct action, shoot everybody. And don't quote when it does happen, it never happens. When you make absolute statements that aren't true or backed up, don't preach them. Your experience doesn't counter-act others who have done it, even if you keep miming the said books or events aren't credible. Credible information has been provided, you've provided nothing. There's been plenty of suggestions in this thread, and some modders putting it to work, I suggest you look that up - that would be more constructive. I agree, it shouldn't be exploited like bunny hops. I agree on counter-acting a lot of the negative thoughts, including one-hit wonders but that's easier said than done and that from a development point of view would - to me - be something worked on later in the project. The start of a project you'd just want to get the ability to do it in game, then begin to work around the mechanics. Well, I guess he's Brit saying FIBUA. But hey... I hear CAG like their knives.

Another great argument. Can you read me my future too?

Nobody said movie kills. You're just stating what's not been said. How smart and original of you. Who said that? Again... Nobody. Again, no argument and only perception and opinion based off what I have never stated or even suggested. Good luck with that.

This looks great, well done. :)

If you're an infantryman you see combat and training differently from an artilleryman and very differently from a war planner. Everyone has their different perception on both training and combat. Tracking as an example, it's not taught to everyone - the same goes with the medical training PJ's go through which basically puts some of them between a PA and a paramedic, that's more than most in the Military. Some units are even getting taught Phillipino Martial Arts and Stick Fighting techniques, kali, arnis and such. That's solely America. If we jump to other Militaries around the world you'll see it used and taught more commonly. The Chinese and the Russians especially. Role comes into play. Your combatives program (presuming that you're American) is getting an overhaul as we speak by those with melee kills in current theaters of war, including by overseas advisers. See it depends also on the theater and future theaters as well as your role. Afghanistan and Iraq lacked the use of such and therefore basic training was modified, excluding what was previously taught (at least to most units and during basic). But if we look at Vietnam and Korea, the Green Berets even taught the use of blowpipes and crossbows in their training scheme to match their surroundings and possible events on top of the melee, sentry neutralization, knife and hand-to-hand skills; Michael D. Echanis was a big part of that and some of what he taught lives on today. You may want to take a read of, "The Green Beret Combat Course: Training the Elite Fighter for War", written by Chief Warrant Officer James M. Webb, Blaise Loong and Sergeant John S. Joyce. Two of the names there being combat veterans and instructors for the Special Forces Combatives Course. "Sentry neutralization is taught utilizing empty-hand, garrote, and knife techniques. Not only are the actual killing movements taught and practiced, but also the philosophy of close quarter termination, stealth, stalking, visual domination, spring power, timing, environmental control and spontaneous reactions (both of yourself and the sentry target) Realism in all situations in stressed to its heighest point. Two-man sentry neutralization techniques are presented for absolute control of an armed guard." Another good read in that era is below, cited in the article "Dagger of the Green Beret" on Tactical-Life's website. "In Hans Halberstadt’s book War Stories of the Green Berets, The Viet Nam Experience Caviani gives a personal account of a couple of his own experiences with the Gerber MK-II. The first involved the extremely rare circumstance where a sentry was actually taken out with a thrown knife. As Jon tells it, he was well known for practicing knife throwing in camp but he really wasn’t expecting to need to put that skill to use in the field. The North Vietnamese Army (NVA) sentry was on the far side of a road (Ho Chi Min Trail) and no one wanted to try to cross the open ground to eliminate him. His team leader motioned for Jon to throw his knife and, at first, he shook his head “no.†The team leader again stressed he had to take the sentry out. Calculating the throw, and fully charged with adrenaline, he let fly at the enemy solider. To his relief, the knife buried itself to the hilt in the enemy’s back and the sentry dropped without a sound! Even in elite units, that one cold steel kill would normally have been the rare exception to multiple tours of heavy combat, but not for Sergeant Major Caviani. His next chance to put the Gerber to work was actually during the same action that he won the Congressional Medal of Honor for. In June of 1971 the NVA over ran Radio Relay Site Hickory north of Khe Sanh and he had the misfortune of being one of its small group of defenders. He was in a bunker when two NVA entered, one unarmed and one with an AK-47. Thinking fast, he stabbed the dagger into the throat of the one with rifle, while his partner stitched the other up the front with 20 rounds from an M16. A few seconds later the NVA logically threw a grenade in the bunker and Jon decided to play dead, which, given the extent of his shrapnel wounds, wasn’t hard to do. He hid under some cardboard in the bunker but an enemy soldier lifted it to see what was concealed there. Without the slightest hesitation, Caviani drove the Gerber into his sternum all the way into his spine. The only problem was he could not free the knife from the body. He managed to escape the camp and evade the NVA for another 11 days before a local Viet Cong captured him. As mentioned earlier, he spent 23 months as a prisoner of the communists and received our country’s highest honor for his bravery in the camp. Returning to duty in the states, he became one of the first senior noncommissioned officer (NCO) serving with Operational Detachment Delta. Any knife is only as good as the man behind it and Jon Caviani proved over and over he was one of the best." I've read some reports on specifically hand-to-hand in WW2 with the Russians. Some intense events and figures. If you've ever read "On the topic of Hand-to-Hand Combat" by Captain S. Feldman, it's a small article but it puts together a number of polled veterans with confirmed experience and categorizes it. The entrenching tool is basically apart of the subculture there, they're far more involved in melee than we are. "According to the same poll, 822 reconnaissance troops used the following in combat with enemy units or troops: knife-dagger stabs (182 incidents), bayonet strikes (92 incidents), buttstock blows (86), an unarmed struggle of one man vs. several opponents (61 incidents), blows with the entrenching tool (48), blows with other improvised means (34), unarmed single combat (18 incidents), and other means (57). These numbers point to the special quality of reconnaissance action: the dagger-knife is the most popular here. We must clearly engage in special training for reconnaissance men." And if you've ever read, "Knife Combat: Version of the Spetsnaz GRU" by Alexander Popov, he gives a good account on the why with no in-between. "In a combat training of Spetsnaz soldiers a great attention is paid to their ability to engage in hand-to-hand combat and to use hand-held weapon aswell as various expedients. The main mission of a Spetsnaz fighter in a Close Combat [situation] is to destroy the enemy with any available means as quickly as possible despite their arms and superior number. The fighter himself should not be seriously affected, otherwise he could jeopardize the achievement of a fighting mission by his reconnaissance/sabotage team. That's why the combat training of a fighter from the Spetsnaz is aimed at gaining a flawless proficiency in many types of fire arms and cold steel and traditionally a combat knife is of special importance among them."

If you're American, your Army does the same. Australian, the same. Britain, the same. Get the trend? Every armed forces has some degree of it encompassed into their training. You could easily say more so in recce/SF and I'd be inclined to agree. And yeah, some 'training camps' do such, sentry killing being the biggest factor there. Not tip-toe though, that's just silly, that's nothing to do with stealth. Books, articles. What you want - peer reviewed? Field manual? It's all there. You just need to look it up. Oh wait, field manuals are written by guys in the armed forces but don't do crap, right? Your next argument. Isn't it good then when guys who have served and have combat experience write their own articles? What else are you going to argue? You've obviously never looked into it. That's quite dogmatic. We've already talked about other games that are getting a good grasp on the mechanics and how if melee was implemented here, sure, it would probably be poor and need work but modders could at least use that base animation.

Who mentioned easy? You obviously just perceived that, probably because you didn't read. How about you read some articles or books made by the said Spec Ops and I'll let them do the talking. That's right, if you came at me with an actual argument I might be inclined to take offense.

Is there a difference between AP/FMJ in that sense? If it penetrates, if it doesn't?

Based off what source? 5-20seconds depends on location, does it? Because in Fairbairn's timetable of death some are almost instantaneous and others <2 seconds. That's more than half your... guesstimate. Modern studies suggest 40 seconds with a single wound, that's without continued cutting. I agree you could cause a number of injuries including spinal injuries bordering quadriplegia or paraplegia. Shock depends on what factor, medical shock or 'oh crap' kind of shock. Either way less noisy I agree with, people talk about screams or the sound of rushing air but there's ways to counter such and they're discussed in numerous articles on the subject matter. No, comparing cartilage is fine. It's like comparing our skin to that of a pigs, which is why they're used in wound ballistic testing alongside ballistic gel. You missed the whole sentence which also talked about humans and how cartilage can be cut through. When people talk about a 'struggle' during this event, realize that involves what we're discussing: a knife going through your neck and not being static but being maneuvered. Stabbed involves a thrust. That doesn't mean you can't thrust a knife during this event, knife thrusts would be good to see in-game; especially if you wanted a dynamic system where-by you can use the knife freely instead of being locked into an animation upon condition. The point was that you can cut, slice, chop, whatever words you want to use to describe certain techniques, you can go all the way to bone, all the way to the spine. You can have a single area of penetration but once the object moves within that created cavity it causes extensive damage to the surrounding tissue. The point of these 'low velocity penetrating injuries' you hear about normally is two idiots in a street fight, one gets stabbed quick and done. In this case it's the opposite, it's co-ordinated and methodical, in a specific anatomical location with technique to cause the most damage, not a simple singular stab. The 'instant kill' for general I fully agree with is stupidity, but if you saw the chart I posted before you can almost instantaneously lose consciousness, some wounds types taking less than 2 seconds and others less than 1 second. It's medically btw. I had to look this up and they have the concept spot on. Give it the next sequel and it'll be great. Currently judging via videos it looks a bit... buggy and awkward. Then again... all MP combat does at some point. You heard it here modders!

https://dev-heaven.net/projects/cms/activity Try again. :) Does it work?

You state everything like it's a fact and you define the airway in two different contexts. That statement sounds like you cannot die from having your throat slit... or at least cannot die from having it slit 'only once'. "Just one cut", seriously? The OJ murder case was a cut that went all the way to the spine. If you apply one variable of number of 'cuts' or 'slits' then it's just a pointless argument. You're basing your argument off nothing of substance. You don't account for depth, for anatomical location, for technique, for anything that involves killing with a knife which proves lack of understanding. "Because of the cartilage", yes, you have cartilage around the trachea in certain areas. You can slice through cartilage and ligament, I guess you've never butchered a turkey or have seen a beheading video. Don't forget the carotid arteries and the jugular vein also, it's not the 'cartilage is where it's at' statement; rapid blood loss and blood filing into your airway isn't 'just' anything. Same for breaking someones neck? Not even going to go there.

Jams - for sure! Safety, not really fussed. Some people operate safety off. So it would only rub the fancy of a sub-player group.

I'm sure it differentiates military-to-military. Plus pistols use lanyards, I haven't seen a pistol sling.

Guess you never played Gears of War. You'd always get owned if you didn't properly 'transition', which in that game tended to be when you took up cover, you went to the side you wanted to shoot from so you could shoot around. If you didn't, you were shooting with the wrong shoulder and would be off/had to adjust. And to say it has NO purpose for shooting from cover is a pile of crap. That's like saying the animations have no purpose for shooting from cover.

Some are 'better'. But that's mainly in HP/JHP where their 'petals' open out causing a very painful wound profile when it penetrates a barrier then meets flesh. I don't know about any MIL-spec in that argument but it would be suggestive that the lowered velocity would allow for certain events like tumbling instead of creating a through-and-through. There's some, limited, study on armour here: http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 It's not a lot but it gives you some basis if it were to be applied in-game.

Bled to death, not outright died from the shot to an extremity. We were talking about in ARMA how people can die from five shots to the hand. Which is equals to say two shots to the chest. People lose arms, legs. It's been known for 7.62 to penetrate around the radial head, tearing apart ligaments and taking off an arm. Hemorrhage control is a major factor to life-saving. It's tough when you're dealing with extremities, especially the legs as you can have the large mass of the thigh which usually needs two tourniquets, squashing all that tissue like a mattress trying to compress the femoral artery plus finding bleeding origin can be impossible. It could be from the abdominal aorta, hence why the CRoC and pelvic splints were successful interventions. Seeing how that article being 2012 hasn't come a long way from this one in 2000. "KIA 31% Penetrating Head Trauma KIA 25% Surgically Uncorrectable Torso Trauma KIA 10% Potentially Correctable Surgical Trauma KIA 9% Exsanguination from Extremity Wounds KIA 7% Mutilating Blast Trauma KIA 5% Tension Pneumothorax KIA 1% Airway Problems DOW 12% (Mostly infections and complications of shock) [KIA: Killed in action WIA: Wounded in action DOW: Died of wounds] PREVENTABLE Causes of Death on the Battlefield Bleeding to death from extremity wounds (60%) Tension pneumothorax (33%) Airway obstruction (maxillofacial trauma) (6%)" Then we can only imagine the setting ARMA 3 is in. Medical advances, combat first aid but we're still dealing with projectile weaponry, and 'better' rounds. Yes, straight away discard temporary cavity. Sure it can 'cause' some temporary and usually low-scale happenings but it's not a damaging factor for the most part. You don't want to account for those variables, I mean displaced muscles, who cares? And if you compare FMJ to AP rounds and similar you'll note that AP rounds tend to go through and through in most cases so if ammunition variety is seen in ARMA then there's logical reasoning for the change of damage values through the selection of ammunition types. The 5.45 is known as the poison bullet for good reason. Throw precession into the mix and its axis can literally turn upwards and those kind of rounds really stand out. To your points: 1. Precise Center Mass Hits. Well, if you think about it with the new gear system and the accountancy for 'armor' then this would be nullified. I don't know how that would work. Chance of penetration? 2. Non-instant Incapacitation Shots. I agree. It's stated in many LE wound ballistic articles that a number of those shot in a firefight actually bleed out elsewhere other than the position they got shot from. They normally get to cover and away from the area before bleeding out, going unconscious and so on. Weighing non versus lethal is all about hit detection and how the damage values are utilize though. ACE tries doing similar in terms of bleeding to unconsciousness. The more movement, the more you bleed, the more pain you have and so on. 3. Randomization. I agree randomization and chance is always good to have, we're including it in CMS but it depends what kind of values you're looking at for what kind of factor.

The "Belgian take-down" certainly does. I laughed that one off.