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acer1961

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Posts posted by acer1961

  1. Posted

    Yes, you're absolutely right.

    Shame on me for not suggesting to someone with no experience in 3d modeling, that they might want to get some experience modeling before they try and port a 3d model ripped from another engine, purchase 3ds Max 9, purchase a polygon stripper, fix it up in the software they don't know how to use, and then import it into O2.

    I'll go post in other topics, where I don't make a fool of myself!

    :(

    My god man, no need to get like that.

  2. Posted · Edited by acer1961

    Yes it does, its: "Don't go there!". Just because its not the answer he'd like, doesn't mean its not answering the question.

    Oh come on Rocket, it doesn't answer the question at all. You know better than that.

    To use an analogy to describe the answer you gave above.

    Someone asks

    "What is 2 + 2"

    Your answer would be

    "You shouldn't be asking that question , you need to know what is 3 + 3" and then you claim you answered the guys question.

  3. Posted

    Imagine a 15 year old kid comes to you, says he wants to make an addon for an F15. What would you recommend? That he rip one from FS9? Purchase a copy of 3ds Max 9, and a polygon stripper, and then optimize it? How easy is that going to be? I think it is much easier to direct them to the "My First Airplane" tutorials for OFP. Create a cylinder with some wings, and then get better slowly.

    Optimization is a skill, a unique one. At my work, the experienced 3d artists are the ones we assign to optimization work. This thread was Myke (who is very new to modeling) asking for ideas on how he could bring a model in. Overall, the recommendations have been exactly what Franze said above.

    I'd also recommend any people new to the community, listen carefully to what people such as DaSquade, Franze, Soul Assassin say. These guys have been here a long time, there are reasons behind their opinions. The forums are here to give people help and recommendation on the best way forward.

    Actually his question was how to convert the MDL format into something usefull for O2. So if you are referring to the OP telling him to make the model himself doesn't actually answer his question.

    "I'm not familiar with 3D programs (besides O2) so i'm stuck on how i could get .mdl format models into O2 (.p3d)."

  4. Posted

    (Most) people come to these forums for advice.

    My advice:

    1. Get all the reference you can; be it 3d ripped, 3d libraries, still images, plans, blueprints, physical walk-arounds, manuals.

    2. Control the geometry/texture creation yourself as much as possible, customizing it to the engine you are developing for. Create the geometry yourself in such a way you have complete control.

    Franze summed up my experiences above:

    That sure hasn't been my experience at all. I have found that if you get decent polygon models, i.e. under 25k , you can create some amazing work with very little effort to get it into O2. Remember again, the work you do in O2 is there regardless of the origin of the models.

    ---------- Post added at 01:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 AM ----------

    Which is far from the point. If they're used with permission from the original authors, that is acceptable. If they're stolen and no permissions have been granted, it's wrong and it can get people in trouble.

    I believe it's far more work to take a model built for a different engine based on completely different standards than it is to learn how to make your own.

    People, trust me when I say you are really inhibiting yourself when you simply look to port the work of others. You gain far more by doing it yourself.

    Now, IF this topic is going to remain on the actual method of converting .mdl to .p3d, then I would see it as OK and leave it open. If this is about taking models without any permissions given, it's getting closed.

    Franze: How many models have you ripped from another game and put into O2

  5. Posted · Edited by acer1961

    I think there is a bit of misunderstanding - my issue is that I think people new to modding should be very careful when using any 3d reference material, as it can end up being more work than actually making it yourself over the top of the reference. I took exception to labeling it as "easy". I haven't had any luck with 3d ripper myself, as I'm on DX10 and Vista 64bit, and the last version I tried didn't load at all. But I do use many 3d reference libraries in pretty much all my projects, as I'm fortunate to have access to many of these through work.

    So to labor the point... I think its dangerous to suggest its easy. In the hands of a skilled person? Yes, perhaps it is. Look at Gnat's piper. That aircraft inspired me to really get into trying to make good mods. But I started trying to make addons from the high poly reference I had... and I just couldn't get anywhere even with polygon strippers. Maybe my standards are too high when it comes to visual quality - but I found that the best result came from manually crafting it using highpoly as a base to draw nurbs and extrude polys over.

    Dangerous to whom. If the person fails using a 3dripper , then so be it. I think perhaps dangerous is too strong a word.

    I probably should have told folks this before, but this isn't my 'regular' name on the forums. I have released a number of addons to the community. ALL using 3dripper. When I started to see the 'flavour' of this thread and others about ripping , I figured I didn't want to post under my regular. BTW, I got permission from every author's work I used. I had actually done a bunch that I could not get permission for.

    I can see what you didn't like 3dripper if using Vista and DX10. That is why I mostly use FS2004 models, less things to deal with.

  7. Posted

    Well, in my case:

    • I now work as a Producer at www.sidheinteractive.com, leading teams that make console games.
    • I also do freelance work for IRIS Simulations, making FSX models.

    I started out modding ArmA and FS9, while I was an Officer in the RNZAF. It was my modding work and the clan website I run, that got me in the door as an AP. I was the first Producer they'd hired from outside the industry in their ten year history, and my modding work was a major part in the reason I was hired. So I'm living proof.

    But you are the exception rather than the rule.

    If we only allowed original work and not rips (of course with permission) there would be a fair number of mods that we wouldn't get at all.

    I appreciate the work you do, but don't begrudge others for ripping and importing.

    As someone else said in this thread, if you don't like rippers then don't download and play their mods.

  8. Posted

    Some people actually do that, work their full time job, do freelance work, and then make addons for ArmA/ArmA2 :eek:

    I agree some do that. MOST don't. If we try and limit people to only creating models from scratch instead of converting a lot of addons don't get made and we don't enjoy them.

    And make no mistake some people are trying to limit this by their 'attitudes' towards converting and indictating that the only 'real' way of doing it is from scratch.

  9. Posted

    When you do model yourself you gain experience, and more models you make more experience you gain, and at some point you can even start doing freelance work and get some money :p

    Now seriously how many people do you think will actually do that , instead of making some pretty decent mods for Arma/Arma2

  10. Posted

    Which is far from the point. If they're used with permission from the original authors, that is acceptable. If they're stolen and no permissions have been granted, it's wrong and it can get people in trouble.

    I believe it's far more work to take a model built for a different engine based on completely different standards than it is to learn how to make your own.

    People, trust me when I say you are really inhibiting yourself when you simply look to port the work of others. You gain far more by doing it yourself.

    Now, IF this topic is going to remain on the actual method of converting .mdl to .p3d, then I would see it as OK and leave it open. If this is about taking models without any permissions given, it's getting closed.

    No one is saying or suggesting taking models without permission. You must ALWAYS get permission.

    I am not sure why people think you gain MORE by doing the whole model yourself. There are a ton of models that can be converted into p3d and would be far less work than making them from scratch. Remember all the stuff in the .cfg files, and in O2 has to be done regardless of method, so you don't save any work that way. What you save is getting the .3ds file for importing into O2.

  11. Posted

    Great topic over here. This is indeed a golden topic with tons of usefull info for new folks. Go rip guys,....don't wast your time on trying to make something yourself!

    (reported, nothing new but imho this shouldn't be in a topic aimed at new commers and i don't suppose it is something BIS or any hardworking modder can stand behind...with or without permission).

    What are you talking about.

    I think you would be VERY surprised how many addons in this community are RIPPED.

  13. Posted

    Hi!

    I search some time ago how to convert the FS models to 3DS for O2 can convert to and put in the game. Able to convert models from other games as GTA and BF, the only way that was posted here in the GTA forums, because I believe that with the authorization of the authors of the 3D models do not have any problem moving to the ArmA\ArmA2. It is something we should explore more of the community as these other games offer many good models and that of course would give great addons. I am converting some models in secret for ArmA\ArmA2 always with the permission of the true author, and my only role of the converter and the result has been very good! Once the work is finished I will launch for the community too. And if interest I post here are my methods of converting these games, FS, GTA, BF and others ...

    and...

    In 3DRipper when I caught one of the FS aircraft and opened it in 3dmax it was flattened, but impossible to take the model =S

    Which version of 3dripper did you use, it sounds like an early version which did not detect the FOV properly or not at all.

  14. Posted

    I'm being high and mighty, because you keep saying the same thing: That it is easy to get FSX/FS9 models into ArmA.

    That is absolutely not true, and it is misleading to people like Myke (the OP) and others coming into ArmA from outside modding communities where such statements ARE true.

    • Where is the Geometry LOD?
    • The shadow LOD?
    • All the animations need to be setup.
    • You need to remap the UV's, rebake/paint the textures to new co-ordinates
    • Setup the configs
    • Define all the animations
    • Create the different resolution lods
    • View/Fire Geometry LODs
    • Not too mention... the interior views!

    All of the above, are easier and more consistent if you use good reference and good modeling practice in the creation of your models. Taking a model from Tubrosquid and/or FSX and saying "right, now I'm plopping it in-game" is a recipe for disappointment that has been dished out here time and again. My point: there is no magic bullet, no script or plugin, no substitute for good modeling practice.

    What you're saying, is that you choose models specifically that are close to being "acceptable" to load within ArmA. That's very different from it being easy to rip/port from FSX/FS9 and is precisely what Gnat already stated. He searched around and found the Piper which was one of a few prospects that offered any hope of a successful port.

    If we go down this route, all we are going to end up with is addons that don't work properly.

    Everything you mentioned has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with importing from FSX/FS2004 into Arma. Those jobs need to be done regardless of methods

    Yes, the addons will work properly , the UH1 that I imported worked as good as any addon created so far that I have seen , including your Maul. It started out as a 27,500 poly model, with 4 textures, when I was done , it was 12,220 polys with 4 textures and according to PerfHud , it was performing as good or better than anything already in the game.

    You seem to think that YOUR way is the ONLY way because it works for YOU. There are other ways that work just as well. Your assumptions are based on a highly subjective assessment of "its working RIGHT".

    Open your mind to other ways of doing things.

  15. Posted

    So how do you go from 60,000 polys and 10 textures, into 15,000 polys and 4 textures easily, and produce a "good" model with "decent" performance easily?

    On a side note, you should aim for one texture, not four.

    I'd quite like to know, as would the entire gaming industry, because then I can lay off most of the art team at work and employ a couple of students/vagrants.

    In my humble opinion, unless you are optimizing a sphere, polygon reduction is never easy, and it is only in the hands of someone very skillful that it produces good results. You have MAJOR UV cleanup, and potential for severe polygon distortion.

    Even if you manage to write a script, or use the new Max functions, that magically reduce polygon counts... on complex and weird models like Aircraft the results are less than pleasant. Automated polygon reduction or unrestrained vertex merging as a method of good optimizing is laughable.

    Assuming you manage to optimize the model, you can bake the old uv's onto a new uv set, but that is not easy... generally requiring an experienced artist. Many artists I know and work with, do not know how to do this. I know how to do it, because I do that for IRIS. It takes many hours of careful UV manipulation and cautious baking, piecing it all together, sometimes with severe heartache and completely creating components from scratch, handpainting/cloning texture parts to cleanup. It is very expensive, and not easy.

    I don't go from 60,000 polys, most of the models I have captured in 3dripperdx are under 25,000 to begin with and are usually around 4 textures because I pick the model itself carefully, plus I capture more models from FS2004 instead of FSX for this reason. I have also used this program for poly reduction with excellent results (it sure helps to work in the 3d field and get good deals on plugins)

    http://www.mootools.com/plugins/us/polygoncruncher/index.asp

    It has some excellent options to virtually eliminate texture problems after reduction , such as maintain texture boundries so that you don't cut off textures. keep border vertices etc.

    Oh btw, there is no need to get sarcastic, we are having a nice discussion about this stuff , don't ruin it by getting all high and mighty.

  16. Posted · Edited by acer1961

    Sounds like a decent workflow, however - the issue with ArmA/ArmA2 (and someone correct me if I'm wrong but this is my experience) is not just the number of verts themselves, but also the texture verts. Doing your process above does not remove the fact that you end up with craploads of textures, with potentially quite a high number of texture verts. FSX/FS9 are all about the one aircraft. It is not uncommon for an exterior of an aircraft to have over 60,000 polys (that's quite a few triangles...). I once got a 1,000,000 triangle International Space Station into FSX just for a few giggles. They are all about rendering the aircraft, with scant polys for anything else. ArmA/ArmA2, this is not the case.

    What I do is use any high resolution models to trace over (such as those from FSX, MeshFactory, Turbosquid, MilViz or etc...), and then for baking into diffuse and normal textures.

    The point I'm trying to labor here... is "horses for courses"... I'm trying to shift my focus to making good models that are designed specifically for ArmA2 rather than just getting something in there really quick. It's the only way to create something really useful rather than end up with our addon sites full of crappy models that are performance dogs with loads of bugs.

    When I do a model for Arma, I make sure that the model has less than 15000 polys and 4 or less textures. I agree that some FSX, FS2004 models have a ton of textures. I also use PERFHUD from Nvidia to look at how the model is performing.

    I guess what I am saying is that it is 'easy' to get a good model from FSX/FS2004 into O2 and have decent performance in Arma if you are carefull. For example the UH1 Huey I worked on some time ago, was very good...unfort I could not get the permission of the author to release it.

  17. Posted · Edited by acer1961

    Gnat;1372019']Yes' date=' great advice Rocket.

    And yes, spend MANY weeks (not days) getting that Piper into a semi-suitable condition for release.

    It probably would have been easier to start from scratch using the ripped model shape and scale, [i']IF[/i] I was any good at using any other 3D package other than Oxygen :(

    I've seen no Weld option, I assume you mean "Merge near". Yes, used it but as I said, there can be some serious problems also created. Sometimes you don't want certain bits merged with others. eg windscreen attached to dash or other. Double sided faces are also a real pain in the arse.

    The source file would be better, but sometimes the author doesn't have that in a suitable file format either.

    To Rockets points, I generally selected some FSX models to convert based on Poly count, Interior detail, true "usefulness" to ArmA (a military sim. (with Civilian elements missing) ) and obviously last being getting authors permission.

    I should have made note that I was referring to 3ds Max when I said the weld command. It allows you to weld vertices that are close together , in this example .001 meters of each other.

    @Rocket: I should have also detailed the full thing that I do. I break up the model by textures (actually by sub materials). This prevents things being welded that shouldn't be welded and allows each 'object' to have only 1 material (texture) per object. There is a max script that you can download that populates the material editor , making each texture a seperate sub material of one single multimaterial. I have taken FSX (also FS2004) models that were over 20,000 polys down to under 15 using this method along with multires and no noticeable loss of resolution.

    BTW, when I say it is easy, I mean that you can get the model ready for Oxygen in a matter of minutes, including having all your materials ready , decently reduced polys, and the shadow lod ready as well. Of course the work required inside O2 will need to be done regardless of method and nothing will change that. The "easy" part is making the model ready for O2.

    Also, I tested a model I made for FSX, checked the polys on source and after captures, they are exactly the same.

    Remember I capture the model from the main screen not INGAME, not sure if this will make a big difference or not.

  18. Posted

    Gnat;1370281']FSX and 3DRipperdx were how I ported the (released) Piper Warrior to ArmA1 several years ago' date=' with permission from the author of course.

    Also have an approved Cessna that I never finished, that might make it to ArmA2

    Biggest problem is some of the vertexes are messed up at times, and its a real pain to repair and remap.[/quote']

    Just a note, did you select all vertices, then WELD them using .001 as the tolerance then apply the smooth modifier and select prevent indirect smoothing. I have found that works great to get rid of the vertices problem.

  21. Posted · Edited by acer1961

    As kju stated before, "alphasim gave the okay to port their work to any other game for non commercial use".

    The link should include source files of the ALPHASIM freeware, but it seems that CheyenneAH56 is the only one who knows, how to convert them :)

    No CheyenneAH used 3dripperdx I believe.

    Plus if you want to convert any of those to .3ds for example, I can do that for you. I can also export OBJ files and the you should be able to find a bunch of converters for other formats from both .3ds and Obj. Remember O2 imports .3ds files

  23. Posted

    Think of Alpha channels just like you would a stencil in real life. The 100% black parts are the holes in the stencil, the 100% white parts are the cardboard. When you have something between 100% and 100% white, say for example 50% black and white, this means the holes will be like putting something over the hole that you can partly see thru but not completely.

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