spooky lynx

I'd add a little. For many centuries Europe had its nice good scarecrow - the Jews, strange nation (for most of Europeans) with own language and culture. They were always blamed for many things, for example ole good famous 'jewish plot' etc. Since 20th century it had become politically incorrect to do this, Jews became free of blaming. But still Europeans need to have such scarecrow. And now Russians took the place Jews held for many years. It's quite okay to blame Russians for everything, offend us, threat us. And, what is most important, such attitude is widely accepted and welcomed in Europe. So no problems with infamous political correctness. And Putin eats the children and shots planes instead of some random Jew using child blood for making matze. Indeed, very civilized behavior.

In fact he says that in case of WW3 start Baltic states and Poland will be wiped out because they will host the forces that are prepared for first strike at Russia. US are far away but those countries are nearby and their leaders bring the danger of retaliation strike at their countries by following US agressive policy. What a nice twist of other person's words, mr. beastcat;) Only one little detail is dropped out but the whole sentence gets quite another meaning. And the notice about harm that will be caused to Baltic states and Poland in case of their participation in US-led agression against Russia turns into the promise of wiping poor countries out of this planet by one of the leading Russian officials... Nice try but still too unprofessional.

Holy craep... Counter-sanctions are put just couple of days ago but Telegraph is already writing about neo-nazi brigade fighting separatists:D I'm surprised very much! P.S. Azov and other similar 'batallions' in fact don't even have real batallion strength so calling them 'brigades' is a little bit way over.

Quite impressive video of devastated remains of 72th UA army brigade near Sverdlovsk.

Угадал. That fakes just shame the nation I belong too. Some people already think that Ukrainians are just a bunch of dimwitted nationalist coward rednecks.

LOLWUT?:D What SVDK are you talking about if that dude clearly said "SVD" (I understand Ukrainian-accented speech clearly)? And I have to upset you but SVD with plastic furniture is produced since late 90's for both military and civil market (civil one called Tigr carbine and... tadaam sold in Ukraine). Again Ukrs are even unable to produce more or less good propaganda, flooding the internet with stupid fakes instead.

It's fake indeed but just damn funny mockery of those jihadist clips. ---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ---------- I've just laughed - especially SKS. And SVD that... is not fielded in Ukrainian army (@1:20) according to that rookie soldier:D

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=747_1406934879

Surprise from Human rights watch: Nice to see more or less balanced report from them but not another "ZOMG EVIL RUSSKIE TERRORISTS KILL CIVILIANS AND SHELL EVERYTHING!!!1" UA style russophobic propaganda piece. Seems that MH17 provocation failed and even worsened situation for Kiev and its sponsors.

And also head of well-disciplined and large armed group that has every kind of small arms in their stocks and even some armed vehicles. So his incitements can be easily backed by some hundreds of well-armed hitmans.

Meanwhile in Interpol...

Rebels don't have a reason to fire at the high-altitude large target coming from north-west to south-east with constant speed and altitude. That's not the route that cargo plane ready to paradrop some goods for UA troops may use. Ukrainians do have full complex but that hadn't hepled them much 13 years ago in peaceful environment. Moreover I highly doubt that level of UA SAM crews had ever increased since that times. It's probably decreased. So in war environment the chance of fatal error of UA troops is even greater than 13 years ago especially if you remember that repairment and maintenance are not the things that were done in UA army. On the other side rebels proved to have rather well skilled anti-air weapons crews who may operate that Buk wisely. If it really shot the missile from the suspected area than it was just waste of costly ammo at rather short distance - not the thing Buk is intended to.

So I'm surprised about how quickly many people took the version about rebels' mistake or even direct order to shot before any official conclusion and disregarding that Ukrainian servicemen can make (and already made several times) mistakes too. I'm surprised how quickly lots of people here became fanatics of version about 'evil rebels' and how quickly hysteria in mass media was started. Call me a tinfoil but I don't believe in such coincidences when so many media outlets start exaggerating one of the rumors and stating it as already officially proved reason. Maybe somewhere at Dnepropetrovskaya street. Adress of showroom is Dnepropetrovskaya st., 34. P.S. 1488 post.

You really hadn't seen any radar indicator if you tell that An-26 doesn't differ from Boeing-777:) I've posted their rather high-res photos here, it's not fake. Too close I'd say. On the other side Ukrainian Buks are nearby since 6th July and could be moved anywhere. I see how are they trained - lost two planes because of stupid mistake, pilots just missed the runway while landing. Hadn't fortified their positions at all in battle zone, the result is catastrophic losses in Zelenopolye. Lost five tanks and one SPG from internal fire during preparations to operation. Attacked own forces of 51st brigade with helicopters after helos performed low attitude fly and even rookie pilot could realise that it's friendly troops. Yeah, good training... You are right about different curcumstances, I say the same: if they shot down civilian jet during peaceful annual excercises - why couldn't they do the same during war time, surrounded with warmongering russophobic propaganda stating that FSBGRU agents are behind every bush and tens of Russian tanks and APCs cross the border every day? I don't even say about decrease of personell knowledge level as since the beginning of operation the only signs necessary for being drafted in army or NG are age and political trustworthiness. At the same time rebels lost no tank or APC or artillery piece because of improper use. The only losses they suffered are from enemy fire. Strange but separatists themselves have other opinion and say the have rather limited stocks of ammo and vehicles. It was seen there on 6th July. Where could it be some days later is question which has no answer yet. ---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ---------- I hadn't seen any advertising billboard of company that does not sell its goods in the town where advertisement is set. What's the point of making billboard with the car that is sold some hundreds km away? Waste of money? For example I've never seen Audi advert billboard until they opened showroom here.

This one. I'd ask some questions to apologists of theory about drunken incompetent rebels pressed the button and shot the plane: - why do you ignore the fact that Ukrainian Buks are deployed at that zone too? - why do you ignore the fact that the only rebels' Buk is needed in other place - Lugansk and zone near the border where a number of UA brigades are surrounded? - why do you ignore the fact that much of Ukraine military servicemen are poorly trained (even poorer that many of rebels) and they had already committed fatal mistake with passanger plane? - why do you ignore the fact that during war time a chance for committing another fatal mistake by poorly trained UA military servicemen is even more? - why do you ignore the fact that rebels don't have infinite ammo supplies so firing expensive and hard-to-resupply missile on some 2nd grade target when much more 1st grade (attack planes) fly near Lugansk? Doesn't basic logic tell you that the first way that Buk would be used is to shoot down ground attack planes near Lugansk where they are used in numbers for ground support of advancing junta troops? - why do you ignore the fact that rebels use all vehicles they got rather smartly and give them to properly skilled crews only? They don't have huge stockpiles of former Soviet Army as their Ukrainian rivals do. So they aren't so dumb to give the only sophisticated Buk to some poorly trained guys. I don't even say about the fact that no international agency proved that specifically Buk missile was the reason of plane crash yet:cool: It's only rumors. On the other side Ukrainian army has S-200 system deployed near Donbass battle zone.

Who said Malaysian team is not allowed? Rebels themselves said the counter - they are waiting for investigators for a couple of days already but investigators don't hurry to arrive. So they are asking comission not to waste time but begin the investigation as soon as possible. Aren't you tired yet of posting lies? Rebels said that they are ready to show the only Buk they have to comission. Oh and that video posted shows Buk in the town controlled by Kiev, BTW:) That's Krasnoarmeysk, not Krasnodon as claimed. Simple thing, there is no "Bogdan" auto showroom at the Krasnodon, billboard of which is shown at the video. UA propagandists are even unable to create good-quality video FPDR

For me ties with US DoS are equal with side of current Kiev regime (as we all have seen open support those days maidan opposition later transformed into current regime by US officials). And Kiev regime became famous for opressing the journalists (that case with Rada deputy forcing the head of media outlet to resign), killing them (recent case with NTV group) and throwing the craziest and stupidest BS like Polish MANPADS in hands of Russian journalists, finding 'caches of terrorist weapons' in some forest far away from any potent target with a couple of MANPADS, labeling some old Soviet weapons as new Russian ones, saying about RPG-18 (which is prodiced since 70's and discontinued in 80's) as newest Russian RPG which does not present in Ukrainian army, talking about mysterious super-duper AK-100 rifles, naming own Ukraine-produced T-64 tanks as Russian T-72s etc. I can post huge list of every kind of BS told by Kiev propagandists and officials but, sorry, you may find it yourselves (even at the links I posted in this thread earlier). And, as I've said multiple times, who pays always matters. BTW Kiev's propagandists forgot to remove one detail from the video showing suspected Buk towed to Russia. Advertising billboard shown there is... located at another town, Krasnoarmeysk, controlled by Kiev's forces since 11 May:)

At least my sources weren't shaking some mysterious tube with white powder at the council claiming it was probe of Saddam's WMD.

The fact that it is sponsored by US Department of State changes.

With all eyes of every fukken agencies nobody gives a damn about hundreds of civilians killed by artillery and airstrikes performed by Kiev's forces. Nobody gave a damn about general 'brilliant' plan of maidanuts to opress the population of eastern regions demanding for federalisation and Russian language as second state one (quite normal things) by army and newly created nazional guard. So for me it's not surprise that just after the crash nobody even says about possible Ukrainian involvement but instead of it takes part in hysteria pointing on rebels and Russia. Oh and seeing recent activity of Ukrainian army and rebels I'd say happy trigger drunks are in first one. 13 years ago they already got their victory upon moskali's Tu-154. And if you see how the battle group of 24th&79th brigades was vaporised by rebels' artillery being stationed in open field without any kind of fortification and then the commander of one brigade just ran away... Let me remind you that some time ago so called United States of America officials were not really officials to anyone but themselves;) Then, you may believe him or not, but he says what he says. And he is at that place, not somewhere in other country. Then, for me and many others that VK channel never was reliable because it was known from the beginning that Strelkov does not maintain any social network account. So does not any of his nearest helpers. It's long story to tell, you can watch it in various blogs I've provided here (some of their authors have connections with Novorossia authorities so they post various first-hand info). You may don't know but there are already few businessmen that offered a reward for the head of fascist Oleg Lyashko, rather large reward BTW. So if you need money... Oh and there is a strange thing named 'volunteer'. You know, some of them may be with rich combat experience. We had seen them with UNA-UNSO badges at our country some years before.

At least one reason - to perform false flag operation for sake of making the whole Europe mad about 'evil rebels shooting down civil plane'. Current situation at the battle zone is very bad for Kiev - army and NG suffer heavy losses after insurgents got some artillery. European leaders start pointing at improper use of firepower by Kiev which leads to losses among civilians. They desperately need something to change the situation for better side for them. Shooting that Boeing was just a miracle. DPR officials are happy to see international investigators but the latter ones, according to the words of DPR 'prime minister' are unsatisfied of security measures DPR can offer to them and still hadn't arrived in full numbers, although DPR officials are concerned about the bodies of the dead still lying at the ground. BTW various VKontakte social network groups dedicated to Strelkov are... unofficial, so he has nothing to do with the people who maintain them and post or remove an info. Pushilin had already long term conflict with other DPR officials, being suspected with connection with famous oligarch Rinat Akhmetov and sabotage of Donetsk defence. After arrival of Strelkov to Donetsk a number of DPR officials and commanders resigned and fled, but suddenly after it insurgents performed a number of successful operations and became much more effective force in general. Why should they carry the weapons across the border if there are plenty of warestocks full of weapons of all kinds left from Soviet army in Ukraine? It's much easier to brong potent specialists who can seize that stocks or bribe Ukrainian servicemen who will give an access to stocks.

They already use heavy artillery and aviation against their own citizens and destroy lots of civil buildings. In their own territory. Then, how can you know if no other Ukrainian missiles have been fired? Then, if rebels really were operating Buk TEL in that district - they should see that the target moves towards Russia, uses high attitude and had big measures. The only military target Boeing can be mixed with is something like Il-76. It was not moving to Donetsk or Lugansk airport so it could not be distinguished as Kiev's cargo plane delivering ammo or food to surrounded UA troops. So why could rebels fire at such target, spend expencive missile if they have plenty of much more significant targets as Frogfoots and other ground attack planes used by Kiev widely? There are plenty of such morons either in UA army or MVD/armed batallions - for example the commander of 24th mechanized brigade that fled the battle zone and left his soldiers without proper commanding during heavy battles. The result was total loss of order in the brigade. Pilot that just missed the taxiway during landing and destroyed his Su-25. Etc. And rebels perfectly know that since the beginning they have a little amount of support in EU. Shooting any civilian plane will destroy it at all - you don't need to be a genius to realise it, and rebels realise it too. I go the same way as mr. Obama and don't say about any reason of the crash as being 100% right and proven. And I don't understand why certain forum members behave like they have more info than US president and say rebels are guilty for sure. ---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ---------- Funny thing that pro-Russians say the opposite - OSCE observers don't hurry to arrive at the crash site although A. Boroday noted that they (DPR officials) were asked by foreign experts not to touch anything at the crash site, so he warned that because of it the bodies of fallen are rotting at the high day temperature. And he asked investigators to hurry and start their duties as fast as possible to prevent complete rotting of the bodies. MistyRonin, if you understand Russian or have some Russian speakers around - here's fresh interview of DPR official about current situation.

There are no evidences except a couple of fake 'chats' between mysterious separatists and low quality video with some Buk TEL supposed to be towed near the suspected crash area. At the same time Ukrainian Buks are deployed in this area too (particularly at Slaviansk) - complete complex not lonely TEL. I can make dozen of videos showing a dialog between SBU agents talking about anything I want and upload it to youtube. It won't make it serious evidence. So still there are no officially studied data from civil/military radars or satellites. No recorders recovered and studied. No conclusion from any aviation commitee. So I ask you, dear junior forums member beastcat who joined us not so long before this tragedy, are you clairvoyant or just troll instigating anti-Russian and anti-Donbass hysteria across the web? Or maybe you have access to classified CIA report proving guilt of insurgents? ---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ---------- If glorious Ukrainian AA servicemen commited such mistake at peaceful time, nothing can stop to commit the same mistake this time during the war. Moreover if you see the amount of warmongering Ukrainian hysteria crying about hordes of Moskali ready and willing to invade Ridna Nenk, regular reports about detaining GRUFSB agents and know how many totally incompetent personell were drafted or volunteered in UA army - the probability of mistaken shooting at the plane is even more than 13 years ago.

Why had it done this 13 years ago? The same reason may be at this time.