Sam Samson

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 17 2002,13:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There was a program on Channel 3 (in the UK) last night caleld "The issue is still Palestine" and whereas it did seem a little biased, it was one hell of an eye opener... (Interesting, engaging post) ... Perhaps it was a bit of a biased program, but it sure struck home to me. Especially seeing a video of IDF soldiers with a Palestinian prisoner. They held him and then used a rock to break his arms and shoulder bones.<span id='postcolor'> Now, they definitely shouldn't do stuff like that. There's no excuse. It is difficult though to rate video clips for their objectivity. Reminds me of the pic where the south Nam general shoots the cuffed vietcong in the head. It looks awful. But the prisoner had gotten condemned for killing that general's family. The general merely executed the murderer. But if that incident is really true, it is almost as bad as blowing innocents up with pipebombs (just to get faster onto the 72 virgins waiting for the martyr in islamic paradise.) By the way, I found this entertaining piece today. chesnoff is a respected news commentator, formerly with USNews & World Report. It's about homegrown criticism of the palestinian dictator. http://jewishworldreview.com/richard/chesnoff.html

Got inspired by the war story thread. Didn't want to mess up the other's story thread, so I made up my own. Had some time yesterday afternoon and came up with this. Has it all: action, psychology, a storyline... To read it takes about 13 min. Please critique it, (if you know something about literature... ) ******************************************* The Phantom Suicide [K](2002 by Sam Samson)[/K] It was close to 0100 when the agile little MH-6 helicopter finally descended on the cold desert floor and hovered there for a second. The rotor wash kicked up a dust cloud big enough to pass for a small sandstorm. The operator held his breath as he burst from the cockpit into the deafening roar of the engine. He started digging as soon as his feet hit the ground, not once glancing back as the Little Bird left him. It was a windless night. When the dust finally settled and the stars came back out, there was no trace of him anywhere. At around 1900 that same day Ali Hamd'awl on the bench of his horse cart scratched his scraggly head and muttered expletives when the lanky, thickly mustachioed wanderer caught his eye. The tall man was languidly strolling in the direction of the big city, which Ali had left a good while ago. A string of beads dangled from the man's hand. This fellow in his white haik, his robe, walked alone and without the trademark AK every man in this part of the world had ordinarily slung over his shoulder. Travellers normally banded together and moved in groups for safety, since power still flowed from the barrel of a gun around here. This man walked alone and unarmed! Ali Hamd'awl judged the man a fool. The operator had turned his head to acknowledge the old farmer rattling by, giving the muttering man a gentle smile. Ali Hamd'awl didn't know it of course, but the wanderer had prepared for this walk all of four weeks. He was glad to finally be here and get on with his job. He wanted to reach the city before sundown, and the sun had already begun to set. The op belonged to Echo Echelon, the army's invisible unit for impossible tasks. Not a soul knew about Echo and the brass thought that was just dandy. They wouldn't even admit to the unit's existence. Echo operated strictly in secret. So far they were successful: not even the preying eyes of notoriously nosy investigative reporters had found out about them. And the brief paragraph in Jane's Defense Digest seemed to be a mere April fool's prank, since it had appeared precisely on..., you know which day. Echo consisted solely of "black" operators, which meant nobody knew they were even present. They walked a fine line, working in strange, postapocalyptic countries in which they were not welcome, doing strange things their government would never acknowledge publicly. They were the army's top hunter/killers. They would appear out of nowhere. And after taking down their tango they would vanish into the flitting shadows like the phantoms they were. They seemed to just evaporate. The men never assassinated heads of state. The law of their land was against that, which they didn't mind. But when some two bit warmonger or troublesome drug lord needed to pass away, Echo made it happen. They were swift, silent and deadly. They were the hale pale secret supersoldiers of the world. They trained hard enough. The outward circumstances of the present job didn't faze the wanderer. The differences between this harsh land and his own country didn't weigh him down. He'd been doing this kind of thing many times before. He was deeply tanned. And when his natural beard didn't grow as thickly as it would have been welcome, somebody stuck a fake mustache under his nose. It worked. He looked like the real thing. He was at ease posing as a local, even though he was really of caucasian origin. It didn't make him nervous. Since he didn't quite master the local language as well as he would have liked, he decided to pose as somebody high on khat, the local drug of choice. He colored his teeth some rotten red and practiced the crazed grin khat-users generally sport. He did look sort of deranged. The operator smiled. He was actually a very mild and soft-spoken man. He didn't really cherish the bouts of horrendous violence in which he had to engage frequently, like some of the others did. He was a loner all right, but he did like people. Their destruction was nothing he celebrated. His mind returned to the job on hand. Once he would arrive in the big city he would find his street. Then he would scout the house, maybe actually observe his tango and assess the situation. Next he would take it easy in some coffee shop on some busy intersection close by. Later he would melt into the shadows before reappearing at 0200. He would make his hit. He would take out the well-known leader of a ruthless tribal organization notorious for its indiscriminate acts of terror. This guy had been the mastermind behind a long string of terrorist attacks on citizens and institutions of the operator's and other western nations. This guy needed to die and the operator knew he could do it. Tonight he would relieve humanity of one of it's vilest enemies. But something bothered him as he drew closer to the city. He was wondering about the ammo in his HK PDW Echo7, a foot long, three pound sub employing the brand new 4.6mm caliber, now well concealed under his flowing robe. (It was custom made for him by Heckler & Koch.) Silence would be no problem. His gun was equiped with an integral aluminum sound suppressor and flash hider. It sported the Navy trigger group, which meant it could fire either on full- or semi-auto, no two or three round bursts. It had less than half the recoil of a regular 9mm HK MP5 KA4, the next best weapon. His PDW had the firepower of a serious sub, the medium range capabilities of an assault rifle and pistol-like close combat qualities. It was the best gun for the job. But the ammo... In this operation speed was all that mattered. His regular 4.6 mm rounds had a tungsten carbide penetrator at the tip, which was green. Those bullets could punch neat round holes into solid metal. But they would also just fly right through a man. It was one thing that this ammo was able to penetrate CRISAT-protection (1.6 mm Titanium combined with 20 layers of Kevlar) over 200 m distance, which is four times more than NATO-requirements call for). It was something entirely different to floor a man permanently. He would have to squeeze the trigger three or four times just to get his tango to go down, not mentioning killing him! Even on full auto he knew stopping a man with this ammo would be difficult. He had actually seen an M60 gunner blast two dozen rounds into a target and the target kept operating! It was ridiculous. And it took too much time. The only nice thing about this method was that the tango would stay integrated. Even if he used the other slugs, plastic coated titanium slap rounds, - less penetrating, higher energy transfer into the target -, the tango would remain integrated. But he would have to shoot several times. And in a situation like that you wanted to only fire once and be done with. Speed! A job like that was supposed to take just seconds. Then you needed to go. Tardiness was deadly in this line of work. Using the Royal O's deformation ammunition on the other hand would change everything. He carried that too. With a hollow point, just one, he'd get his tango down for good. But the guy's innards or his brain would splatter all over the place. And at the height of his close quarter battles the operator would always change into a strange high serotonin/adrenaline mode. Time seemed to pass slower. Actually, sometimes he felt the world passed him by in slow motion while he handled his tangos at full speed. And if a tango literally went to pieces right in front of your eyes, ... in slow motion! Now that was stressful. You had to live with that image for the rest of your life. After all, even tangos were made in the image of God. The operator knew that those mental picture of mangled enemies could do a man in after a while. Even hardened soldiers carried loads nobody knew about. Just recently several special forces guys had handled this kind of stress badly. They had killed their wives, and in at least one case killed themselves right afterwards. None of them had been with Echo. But the operator knew about the hidden dangers that lurk in the dark recesses of a soldier's mind, undetected, buried under heaps of machismo. Yet waiting to pounce. They came stealthily, in dreams at night. They drove people insane. He dreaded the images. When he finally arrived in the city, at nightfall, everything went according to plan. He found his street, checked the house out and hung around. Nobody paid any attention to the dazed weirdo. Everybody left him alone. Just the way he liked it. A while later he was gone again. At 0203 he suddenly reappeared. The kid at the door posed no problem. Standing in the doorframe of the white two story appartment building he tried to wave the operator off who played his role as nervous khat-user rather well. After some banter the op simply delivered a quick, hard kick to the guy's thigh, shocking the femoral artery. The kid simply passed out. The op flex-cuffed and muzzled him. Then he stuck him into the next best broom closet. Strange, he thought. Tango did not put up any serious guards. He must feel very secure here. Slowly moving down the dark hallway he reached for his PDW concealed by his robe and retracted the bolt. Needed to walk softly now. If somebody saw you move fast they got suspicious. You caught the eye and provoked reactions by moving fast. He moved slowly. He still had time. As he did his senses went into overdrive. The operator could have heard a pin drop a mile away. The house was perfectly tranquil. Upstairs was a source of light. The staircase consisted of well worn wooden planks. Creaky. The op hesitated for a moment. Then he decided to simply walk upstairs without trying to conceal his steps. Going up proved to be no problem. He quickly peeked into the open room with the light source. The op knew the folks inside wouldn't be able to detect him in the shadow outside. The room was nearly empty. But the op was lucky. Tango sat at his desk facing the entrance, apparently still working, even though it was after two o'clock in the morning. One other man sat on a soft couch under the small, barred window high in the wall, sleeping. Two guns, worn AKs, hung from the window. Another one lay on the sill. A hand grenade was perched on the desk in front of Tango. A large silver handgun was lying next to it. The operator said a quiet prayer while he kept his eyes on his enemy. Then he moved the safety on his PDW to single shot. The gun went plop. The tile floor snapped. Tango looked up. The gun went plop again. Tango stood up. His hand reached for the silver pistol. Plop. Floop. Plop. The bullets hammered the wall as Tango sank to the floor without a sound. The sleeper on the couch sighed. The operator sneaked in, took the handgun from the desk and placed it in Tango's right hand. Then he checked: Tango was dead. And he didn't even bleed. The operator vanished. *** On August 23, 2002, Reuters news agency reported that Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist, had commited suicide in his Baghdad appartment. Reuters did not explain why the man shot himself five times.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nice man! You should have added to the War Story. We are thinking of doing another one soon! Please contribute your stuff is brilliant!<span id='postcolor'> Gee! Thanks Cloney. I will, if I find the time to get involved. Had to cut it short. (Dunno how many read this as long as it already is. ) </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im gonna read this tomorrow.... It better be good <span id='postcolor'> Did..., did you? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Didnt read right through it becuase I personaly dont like the writing style, but if you could pump out a few hundred pages, Im sure you could get published and could at least compete aginst Tom Clancy <span id='postcolor'> Well now, Curnel, c'mon. Gotta read the piece, especially if you say you write yourself, before you pass judgment on the style. Then you, - I'm talking to the writer in you -, didn't even notice that I'm employing inner dialog, precise info, true tactics... Blast it! I entertain and educate all at the same time! Competing against Clancy? Actually I had Shakespeare in mind... (Boy am I vain. ) </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the 8th grade I wrote a short story where the U.S. decided it wanted to dominate the world...<span id='postcolor'> Hmmm. I'm not gonna talk politics. Not in here </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My own little project is coming to an end. Last year I decided to start writing. My first stories did not get anywhere, but my latest project has. It is 90pages long and contains 60,000 words to rival Tom Clancy MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA I have enjoyed writing it over the lst few months and I hope it will be good enough to publish so then I can get money to buy a beasty computer so I can run Resistance on full settings at 1600x1200 <span id='postcolor'> Well, post a couple of highlights in here. Let the masses decide whether you got it or not. Hey, we'll critique you. (And steal your ideas.) </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Frustrated because the President [*Who was female by the way - what a weird 8th graded I was*] wouldnt listen to *his* pleas, and knowing that at that very minute nuclear armed missles where racing torwards *him*, he stormed out of the Pentagon doors and walked down the concrete pathway.<span id='postcolor'> A transvestite president perhaps?<span id='postcolor'> Mmmaybe we should let that story rest in peace. It obviously got nuked by mother nature somewhere down the line. Did any of the, umm, real life operators frequenting this forum (unregistered of course) want to contribute something? Like..., how the op escaped?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Sep. 15 2002,12:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">... this thread is not just useful for discussing the latest news. Â For example, Bogo found and posted the following old quote by Israel's first Prime Minister on page 216: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that? David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress<span id='postcolor'>This quote is very relevant and, as you probably already know, it did not appear earlier in this thread. Â It would not have been posted at all had this thread been closed at page 215. But we digress... Â <span id='postcolor'> bernadotte, the ben-gurion-quote is not self-incriminating as you would have it! all former mr. gruen (ben-gurion's real name) does is state the arab view of israel, not his own. don't deconstruct him into a murderous, conniving hypocrite he never was. (what are you? an intern at the ny times? )

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 15 2002,01:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,23:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 14 2002,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree. the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region. just a fantasy...: after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently. hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.) an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia. then iran will be taken down. the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan. then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt. the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic. if anybody starts another war on israel, israel will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead east of the jordan river. syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped. like general lehman said: power corrupts, absolute power... is really cool! any takers? <span id='postcolor'> What a bizare fantasy. Is that what you expect or want? Or both?<span id='postcolor'> honi soit que mal y pense, I had hoped, paratrooper, that you might pick up the train of thought and subtract from, or embellish it on your own. present your own idea of a middle east scenario for the next few months and years. definitely more entertaining than your one line spam responses, without which this forum would not be any poorer.<span id='postcolor'> I asked you a question. My response would be determined by that, not a jibe and not spam. I assume you would answer that it is what you expect. I expect no change in the Middle East. None. Saudi Arabia and Jordan have very stable monarchys. Which is good for the region considering the dangerous elements moving in the Arab world currently.<span id='postcolor'> there is a great difference between jordan and saudi arabia. I have to admit, I have a soft spot for jordan. I liked king hussein. He always struck me as the most fairminded arab ruler down there. arafat took advantage of the king in the seventies, when the PLO became a de facto shadow government in jordan until hussein kicked arafat and his minions out. And he made peace with israel before he died. A great man, especially considering the circumstances under which he labored. saudi arabia is an entirely different matter. It's rulers are corrupt. They are buying off threats to their hated rule by funding the most extremist religious fanatics around. in mini-mini-bosnia alone they invested 800.000.000 $ in mosques and other islamic activities. most of the 911 killers were saudis. all they have down there is oil and islam. They keep their people locked up in the middle ages. that clique needs to go.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Sep. 14 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,01:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree. ...<span id='postcolor'> It's such a shame that when you look at people you categorise them. It shouldent matter if you are christian,muslim,jew,black white or whatever. We are all the same as long as some off us don't see that and take the people that are less fourtanate it will cause unjust and unjust will cause wars and animosity.<span id='postcolor'> bogo, I don't understand a word you write. could you explain yourself some more? and I really don't want to talk about it anymore in here, but... about israel surrendering land that once was theirs for many long centuries: everybody should know by now that I feel israel has a right to exist. I don't share any of the obvious hatred many people here bear for that nation whatsoever. israel is my sympathy nation of choice. I don't feel any closeness to any of the corrupt dicatatorships and extremist fiefdoms in the region. however, in the past God did indeed tell his people to surrender to a foreign power and leave their homeland. nebuchadnezzar's babylon is the case in point. the southern jews, (northern israel had long been deported, it's population partially replaced by "samaritans"), were to go into captivity for a set number of years. jeremiah told them God would bless them in captivity outside of their land. and he did! daniel became chancellor of the empire with three of his closest friends running the most important provinces of babylon. (jews in high places? gimme more! like now, many of the jews returned to their homeland after a considerable amount of time, and the inhabitants of the region didn't like it and schemed against it, just like now. israel depended on a superpower for protection then (persia, today's iran). today, by now, it can hold its liquor on its own. but looking at the present situation: any way I slice and dice it: israel cannot surrender certain territories without jeopardizing its very existence. until a new leadership takes over for the palestinians the status quo will remain. a recent positive sign was that arafat's cabinet stepped down because the pal's parliament, (convening for the first time in 18 months!, maintained that those ministers are largely self-serving, incompetent and corrupt, (like the man himself)! I knew there was common sense in a lot of those people.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 14 2002,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 14 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree. the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region. just a fantasy...: after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently. hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.) an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia. then iran will be taken down. the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan. then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt. the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic. if anybody starts another war on israel, israel will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead east of the jordan river. syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped. like general lehman said: power corrupts, absolute power... is really cool! any takers? <span id='postcolor'> What a bizare fantasy. Is that what you expect or want? Or both?<span id='postcolor'> honi soit que mal y pense, I had hoped, paratrooper, that you might pick up the train of thought and subtract from, or embellish it on your own. present your own idea of a middle east scenario for the next few months and years. definitely more entertaining than your one line spam responses, without which this forum would not be any poorer.

well, we could argue israelis/palestinos until we're blue in the face (and we were a couple of times, weren't we), and we would never agree. the mid east is big, and now, since the president admonished the UN to take itself serious again by saying the UN should demand iraq follow some 27 resolutions hussein so far ignores, let's talk about the possible pax uno (or americana) in the region. just a fantasy...: after using afghanistan and several other -stans for decentral mobilization zones, building up forces, america will move on iraq, disabling its military and all wmd-sites permanently. hussein will move underground and fade into irrelevancy. (capture is nary impossible.) an iraqi general who went awol during the gulf war and lived in the US since, will form an interim government with elections soon to follow. iraq will cede territory to saudi arabia. then iran will be taken down. the mullahs leave for europe, (where they will be hailed as freedom fighters against fascist america), and the people elect a leader like in afghanistan. then saudi arabia's corrupt elite will be deposed of for funding terrorists worldwide, and the country reshaped in the image of egypt. the hashemite kingdom of jordan will be transformed into a palestinian republic. if anybody starts another war on israel, that country will then obtain the disputed territories for good as well as ancient gilead west of the jordan river. syria will remain an isolated dictatorship in the region, stabilizing it by forcing the new states to remain vigilant in respect to it, syria's dictator becoming their common enemy, and serving as reminder of the political system they just escaped. like general lehman said: power corrupts, absolute power is really cool! any takers?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Sep. 12 2002,08:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 11 2002,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this here world, my fairminded friend, is probably the only heaven you'll ever meet, and the only hell some of us will have to endure. God revealed himself in Jesus.<span id='postcolor'> Excellent... have proof? And as for Hell, I believe the existentialist Jean Paul Sartre (French- but we shouldnt hold it against him) summed it up best: "There's no need for red-hot pokers. Hell is- other people!!"<span id='postcolor'> proof? got plenty. guys like you just don't go for it. matter of fact, I probably could part the red sea and you'd just mumble about friction in the earth or something. Jesus himself could probably come down the street with red neon signs pointing to him and you wouldn't acknowledge him. problem is, in the end you die in your sins and aren't ready to meet infinite justice. that's a shame. your sartre quote is a tad too misanthropic for me. right up there with descartes and spinoza. anyway. in the end existentialism always leads to nihilism of some form or another. and that's no answer. but this is the mid east thread. now, after the prez's speech in front of the UN let's develop a scenario of the region 10 years from now!

I was in the tip of southern india last year when some buddies knocked on my door and told me to flip on bbc-worldnews: somebody had just slammed two passenger planes into the WTC. I had no explanation. neither did any of the other guys. well. since then afghanistan has after 23 years of war become a country with a fair shot at development. al quaida and most of its operatives are rendered ineffective. the US has realized that the new threat after fascism and communism is worldwide wahhabi islamic terror and fights it. the victims paid for this with their blood. the US also has to look inward and search for the causes of why this judgment befell us. I just want to salute the victims of 911, especially the brave men who put up a fight over pennsylvania, becoming the very first to fight this new wave of terror. this fate could have befallen you or me just as well. their sacrifice was not in vain. thanks also to all who stood with america in this hour one year ago and still. God bless America, and every faithful soul.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 11 2002,14:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Sep. 11 2002,10:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"DOR do you ever read the history or anything that  isent in the bible. If sow tell me on wich page does it say mass deportation of people is viewed ok in the gods eyes." Woah. You think God is a NICE guy? Come on. God would deport people in a second if he wanted to. The guy flooded the whole world! He sent plagues on people! He levelled entire cities! bla bla.<span id='postcolor'> i'm thinking about one thing ......... wouldn't the place we're in right now be some kind of hell ? -edit- : god is a biatch<span id='postcolor'> this here world, my fairminded friend, is probably the only heaven you'll ever meet, and the only hell some of us will have to endure. God revealed himself in Jesus. now, what was that about bitches?

this thread is a snakepit! I'll tell my psychologist buddies! they'll have a ball with this...

(not much time at all...) I don't understand something. you guys clear something up for me. in 2000 bill clinton and ehud barak agreed to hand 98% of the territory over to arafat for autonomous administration by the pa, including strategic places like the jordan valley, etc, if I remember correctly. they promised him his palestinian state. why did he not take the offer?

well. you might actually be able to continue to operate if you got shot with some plastic coated titanium bullet like most courteous beckwith-boys use in their marvellous car-15s. but if you got hit by, say, a clipped 7.62, you will be incapacitated to the point of not being able to think clearly. those bullets damage your innards severely and the exit-wounds consist of a big crater on the side of your body on which the bullet came out and journeyed on. other folks will drag you to some quiet spot where you will lie in your blood until some medic fidgets around on you, probably haphazardly, because he's nervous himself. after the firefight you will be flown or wheeled out to the next serious mash. don't get into this business until you know exactly why (should you think about joining an active combat unit).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 07 2002,01:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lets kick both sides out and populate it with Communists! Then there are no religious problems  Just a carazy idea. And Sam Samson, reading your posts, it all most sounds like you are saying we should exterminate the every muslim on this planet. This is both Genocide, and Ethnic cleansing.<span id='postcolor'> you guys know no nuance. and as to populate with communists: you obviously forgot that gamal abd el nasser of egypt, plus jordan and syria attacked israel in 67 with about 2 billion of '67-dollars worth of soviet hardware. he was properly funded by the commies. the arabs lost anyway. and considering the close ties arafat had to now defunct communist east germany, (he explained to them how during the day they throw stones and at night they deploy their snipers), I would say, the commies had their throw. and failed miserably. I still say: buy the palestinians out, resettle them in jordan. then start a coop, building desalination plants on the mediterranean. irrigate vast regions of desert on both sides of the jordan river and make them into agricultural zones (like israel has been doing all along). then palestinians, israelis and all peaceloving people in the region can focus their attention on making some money and bettering their lives. but it won't happen. islam in the way...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's not about KYOTO! It's about saving the planet from fanatical Muslems! Wake up and smell the roses while you still can.<span id='postcolor'> and i really like to say that you are one biased person. there is no fanatical muslims. Osama and Omar has been dubbed as impostors of muslim longtime ago. thus they are not. although they cam claim that they are the 'true' muslims, it is no doubt that muslim do not condone them.<span id='postcolor'> hello? earth to ralph? it's great that you found out that osama aint no moslem. but I for one would like to hear that from the imams at the university of cairo and not from a poster at this forum. has your sense of reality been clouded by a too close proximity to hollywood (assuming you actually are from the west coast)? al quaida is not moslem... so what? then western capitals are under threat by a legion of crazed guys who think they are moslems. does that diminish the threat? yours seems to be an all too typical case of political correct leftist denial. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's about saving the planet from fanatical Muslems!<span id='postcolor'> I think we should deal with our fanatical christians first. I consider them being more dangerous to our civlization.<span id='postcolor'> tell me all about it! buddy, you know not what you are talking about. you in your posh little place obviously never had to endure ethnic or religious violence. you never went with some fanatical christian idiots to some remote place of the world where moslems killed hindus, hidutva raped and pillaged moslem women, and your despised christians patched up the maimed and wounded afterwards. you obviously were not among the dumb christian dimwits who cared for the orphans of african ethnic slaughter, or installed food and healthcare for them. you never went and raised money for causes like that like those stoooopid fanatical christian peons. look. if you feel like badmouthing and maligning somebody, why don't you pick someone you know something about? I bet you know not one christian bomb builder or mass murderer. so where's the christian threat to your enlightened civilization?

none. real men are not afraid of the dark. (know another "real men" joke?)

if my house were to be more than 1000 years old, I might consider moving, yes. but that is not the point here. bogo, if it were up to me all mankind would live in peace. and no: I'm not for kicking people anywhere, whether in the rear nor out of their homes. but that is also besides the point. the threats to our way of life by wahabi moslems won't go away by ignoring it, bogo. you're obviously not from new york. (me neither.) and in the future I'm not going to reply to pointless posts. and ms holder? what is that supposed to mean, if I may ask? I'm not a holder of any ms, whatever that is.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 06 2002,19:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Sep. 06 2002,10:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I want to know if and or when there is a war with Iraq, will the ravers and hip-hop kids and young adults protest the war the same way that the hippies did back in the 60s. -=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'> I think so, there are already dozens of musicians even in the USA talking about how US policy caused 9/11, and how much death the US is and was causing around the world.<span id='postcolor'> you guys make me weep. this is a classical example of how leftists construct the victim into the actual aggressor. this is ridiculous. loopy logic. for the record: the US never did anything to mr bin laden, who is a millionaire and still never did anything for his people than deal in death, or his gang of killers. on a less vitriolic, more sober note: you can't underestimate saddan hassim like chamberlain and the rest of his dovish colleagues did hitler in the 30s. he is aggressive. he gassed 1000s of his own people. he probably has wmds. also, you have to look beyond this present crisis. for the US to topple saddam means it is willing to get involved into nation building. that costs billions and billions, and the outcome in that region of the world is far from certain. it might work if the victory comes swift. but I doubt it will. right now I'm for containment, whatever that may entail, not war. the US will need at least the leading nations of europe in some sort of agreement. (lest they start sabotaging too.) but I trust president bush to do the right thing. he knows more than we do and he has able advisers. (and he's not like ole slick, who bombed iraq every time a scandal was about to break at home.)

denoir, I'm familiar with heartland america. and I have to say that most people don't give a rip about politics. it's not like in europe, where politics is everything. (I'm fluent in german, so I know what I'm talking about.) also, I don't see it as a problem that only 50% of voters turn out to cast their ballot. I think they are simply too fat and happy to care. as long as the economy humms along, nobody really cares about who's in charge. and as long as government stays out of people's personal lives. their abstinence is a sign that all is well in their eyes. and I don't doubt at all that your swedish friends didn't like it in newjack city. that is probably because ny is a lot like europe. (lots of highstrung, hectic people with strong moods).

seems like a lot of folks are out knocking the US for patriotism these days. maybe they mistake patriotism for nationalism. I think patriotism and nationalism are not the same. nationalism is just plain foolish. why would any nation in and of itself be better than any other one? the blood of all runs but red. a canadian is not better than a yank who happens to have been born across the border. and a frenchman is not by some mysterial act of nature intrinsically better than a german. what makes any nation great is the rule of sensible law, rulers installed by the people that have their eye on the benefit of the people. (that have at least their mind on what they think that is.) what makes a nation great are the principles it was founded on and the institutions founded upon those principles. ultimately that seems to have a lot to do with religion, since your principles spring from your faith, no matter what that would be in particular. (even the credo in science would belong under that heading, as it formulates principles too). so, is the US wrong to be patriots of their nation? are their institutions and founding principles moronic enough to warrant perpetual knocking? Is patriotic synonymous with idiotic? whaddayathink?

colonel, while I sympathize with your viewpoint: it is utopical. we're dealing with roughly 12.000.000 young people which are currently being indoctrinated in thousands of madrasahs (koran-schools) in a wide swath spanning from indonesia all the way through northern africa. in these establishments they are schooled in their scriptures, in the art of the ambush and close quarter combat, and in implacable hatred of all things western. afghanistan and al quaida are only symptomatic of this crisis. they proved again and again that they are willing and ready to destroy the "geat satan" and its satellites, most notably on 911 a year ago. we can't go 'round and pretend everything is dandy. to those people we seem squeamish with our scruples. if they'd have the chance they'd kill us still tonight. we gotta get into their mindset, find out how they are thinking and be prepared. israel needs to do the same.

I say you're not really free, if you're not able to NOT do that kinda stuff for even an indefinite period of time, should the situation demand it, or should you just simply choose to forgo those things. if you need that stuff all the time you're hobbled big time. in earlier ages this mindset I'm talking about was called self-discipline. you'll never get anywhere worthwhile without it.

while I'm thinking of it: it is almost perfect altruism when the US (or whoever) helps a nation and benefits from that help later on, like america did helping europe after ww2. so what if the US created a market for it's goods and grew rich by giving europe a hand? who said a good deed is only good if the receiver benefits from it and not the doer? the best deed is the one where both make some winnin's. it's a tenet of principled capitalism that everybody should gain by a transaction, and not one wins, one loses. benign, principled capitalism creates win-win situations.

I own a ruger 10/22 LR and it is a fine lil toy. cost waaay under 500 bucks. (170 or 220, if I remember correctly.) go for the bolt action if you want something to fiddle and play with. I personally like the semi-auto makeup better. if you want something with a little more zip go for a .22 hornet. wouldn't buy anything w/ bigger cal if you're not into real hunting. you live in whittier? had friends there. they're in kansas now.