Schoeler

No, but he'd could very well have gotten into air force one with the nuclear football like the protocol for what the President is supposed to do when the nation comes under attack dictates, and like he has been trained to do since he took office. Remember while 9-11 was happening, nobody knew who the attackers were. All we knew was that they were hitting financial and political targets of which, Bush was one. He elected to sit there while for all he knew, ICBMs were crossing the polar icecaps, and do nothing, all the while making those kids around him a target. Gore would have at least had the book right-side up. We'll never know what he would have done will we? This is mere speculation. A hell of lot more than a guy who ditched his air national guard service tells us. Kerry was in combat, took fire, saw death up close, killed the enemy. He knows exactly what the men and women he orders into action are going to personally go through and how they will feel when they come home, if they come home at all. He knows what war will bring to the nation it is fought against. He witnessed the destruction we caused in Vietnam firsthand. Bush has not a clue. Are you a veteran? Because I find that sort of statement extremely naive if you are.

Yes, but you have to stop and think about the future yourself. Â I meet a lot of Bush supporters who say the same thing, "Well, I am doing fine under Bush". The thing is, are they really that selfish or are they not even bothering to look at their neighbor? I think it may be a little of both. And what about future generations? Â What about your kids, who are going to be saddled with debt and maybe even drafted into military service? Bush holding his ground has gotten us into some sticky situations, like a long-term war in Iraq. Â Meanwhile, Iran developed WMD and actually supported Al-Qaeda in the 9-11 plot and Bush did nothing. Â How long do you think we can continue to ignore that threat? Â Now, we have a war we don't have enough troops to win, and another one on the horizon that we may be forced to fight. Â All because Bush stood his ground. The numbers showing the economy getting better are mixed. Â The U.S. is borrowing heavily from Asia to fudge those numbers. Â Jobs are growing, but they don't pay the same as the jobs that were lost. Â In addition, healthcare benefits have actually decreased. Â Education costs are going up and student loans and grants are going down. Â I don't know if you have kids, but how do you plan on putting them through college if you do? I have far less faith in Bush's ability to improve our image. Â He had a fresh clean slate with the world after 9-11 and look where we are now. Â He can't admit wrongdoing and the world resents him. Â How will things be when he has an entire four years to maneuver without being concerned for his re-election? It scares the hell out of me, because a President's second term is usually when their agenda really kicks into high gear. Â If Bush was taking it lightly and trying not to step on any toes this first four years, then we as a nation are headed towards some serious trouble.

Hey Billybob, since you seem equally concerned about the issues and equally upset about the negativity, tell me, what is it about Bush that brings him your support? What have you seen him do for the country in the last four years that makes you want to give him his job back for another four? I'm truly interested in why people want to vote for this man, I just can't fathom anyone thinking he has done a good enough job to deserve re-election. Also, your support on the flip-flopping thing was hardly substantial. Â Kerry reversed his opinion on affirmative action after 12 years? Â Do you feel exactly the same about everything you believed in 12 years ago? How about the fact that less than four years ago, Bush adamantly expressed his belief the United States should not engage in nation building? That's one hell of a big flip. You second quote has Kerry initially criticizing the first President Bush's interests in GW1 and saying he didn't think the coalition organized would hold together over the strength of those interests, and then later saying he applauded Bush for putting together an international coalition before acting. Â Not exactly a flip flop. How about George Bush the second saying he would "leave no child behind" and then approving the cutting of funding to that program thus leaving many children behind to the outrage of educators across the nation? There is a giant flop. The thing is, ALL politicians change their position on various issues over time, even your beloved President Bush. Â They change them as circumstances change and I would expect them to. Â The ability to change your mind, grow in your knowledge and adjust your opinion to what you have learned or adapt with changing circumstances is a fundamental and crucial aspect of the human condition. Â It insures our ability to learn, adapt and survive, to develop and perservere and to achieve the things we have achieved. Â I don't see why that quality, the ability to change one's mind or grow one's opinion is characterized as negative by Republicans even when they do it themselves. Â How can maintaining a narrow-minded and unflinching worldview and insisting on retaining a stance even though that stance is failing terribly, and then refusing to apologize when that failure becomes obvious to everyone be seen as strength of character? The fact that the President doesn't change his mind and doesn't admit mistakes frankly scares the hell out of me and is a larger part of the reason I'm voting for Kerry.

Obama gave an excellent speech. He is truly the future of the Democratic party and that future is bright. He'll make an excellent Senator and I see him going even farther too. Maybe an Edwards-Obama ticket in 2012?

It's probably fact. I don't doubt they make heinz ketchup all around the world. The difference is, they still make Heinz ketchup in Pennsylvania as well. Don't confuse foreign production with outsourcing, they are not the same thing. Outsourcing is packing up an entire plant and all of its high-paying jobs and moving it to a foreign location to replace those high-priced workers with cheaper foreign labor. Outsourcing in essence screws over the American citizens, and the poor foreign worker as well, all in the name of bolstering the bottom line.

He looks like a giant blue condom, but it's hardly the Dukakis photo reborn. Dukakis' was a video and he looked ridiculously out of place in that tank.

You have got to be kidding me!? Â You don't think much of her stand on stem cell research. Â What better reason could she have for promoting it? If you got diagnosed with terminal cancer tomorrow, would you be happy if people wrote off your advocacy for ehanced cancer research? That is simply a narrow-minded and extremely un-empathetic point of view. Yes, it may be unempathetic, but it is right. Sometimes when someone is emotionally vested in a certain situation, it clouds or completely takes over their judgement. Sure, it may alleviate some suffering, but is it the right way to go about it? I'm sure down the road there is more than one way to alleviate such suffering. Â Cloning is not the way to do it. If I were a cocaine addict, I would beg for cocaine to alleviate my suffering of withdrawal. Â My judgement is clouded by my problem. Â Simply appeasing those who suffer is not always the right way to solve a problem. I think this reply does not dignify a full reponse.

George Bush Premier Public Speaker We Can Be Proud Of I can't wait for the debates.

Cannot find a recording but all the news website quote her has saying that.... (I heard the tape thingy on local news...) Hi billybob2002 I think you need to come up with tape of the speech. I have done a thourough hunt and cannot find one any where. Could you tell me the Radio station you heard it on? However like many others I think it perfectly reasonable to tell a reporter to shove it when he is being as obnoxious as that particular one was. Shove it is not swearing after all. Kind Regards Walker Walker, she did say the words "un-American" in her speech. I heard them as well. What Billybob has failed to do is supply you with the context for her use of those words. Her speech was about all of the recent negative campaigning being done by both sides and how they should focus more on the issues instead of personal matters. She said it was un-American to be so hateful to each other. After the speech, an editorial reporter for the Pittsburgh Gazette, a notoriously right-wing rag that has featured a series of attack editorial against the Kerry campaign in recent moths tried to trap Heinz-Kerry into making a statement that attacked Bush by taking her statement out of context with a leading question, asking her if she was calling the Bush campaign "Un-American". The camera caught him asking a follow-up question, "What do you mean by the words un-American?" after she refused to answer his initial question. Heinz-Kerry, already angry at the man, at first attempted to dodge him and move on, but he kept harassing her, so then she turned around, sought him out of the crowd and let him have it with the "shove it" comment. Of course all we get from our reliable media is the soundbite containing the second question and the aggressive move followed by the "shove it" comment. We are then left to speculate as to what really happened because people will make the obvious assumption and think badly of Heinz-Kerry, which of course assures controversy and increased viewership in the run up to the election. I am starting to think the media is our worst enemy in this country, for both Republicans and Democrats and I think it may be time for them to be held accountable for their tactics. They are playing a dangerous game of hyping up the controversy and presenting us with half-truths in order to secure bigger ad buys. I don't think the public would be nearly as divided if it weren't for them. If we had all seen the entire story and been provided with the context, I think most Americans would admire Heinz-Kerry for being a strong enough woman to stand her ground against an unfair and biased attacker.

Cannot find a recording but all the news website quote her has saying that.... (I heard the tape thingy on local news...) Denying that she said un-american and she did.... Edit: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/news/s_205302.html No, no, no ,no, I'm not talking about that. Support your assertion that Kerry is a flip-flopper, because right now, it sounds like the Republican attack ads have spoonfed you your opinion and you didn't bother to check things out for yourself. Can you show Kerry is a flip-flopper, or is that something you have been told and then just assumed was true?

Would you care to support this statement with an argument, or, God forbid, some evidence, or are you going to act like the rest of the Republican party this election and be satisfied enough with the accusation itself?

You are still missing the point. People have the ability to change their point of view and their feelings on any subject. A change in point of view usually follows a life-changing experience or comes with increased education. Might it not be concievable, and I know this is an amazing and far-fetched logical stretch here, that the Reagans changed their point of view on stem cell research because of a life-changing experience and/or, further education on the matter. **scratches head** Gee, I don't know. In all my examples, people changed their point of view for whatever reason, be it selfish or selfless, based upon life experience, or upon further education. The Americans established the colonies as loyal British subjects. Some profound life-changing experiences changed their point of view and changed their loyalty to the crown. The Russians had a revolution to establish Bolshevism. By 1989, life experience and education into the feasibility of the communist system caused many of them to change their point of view. The Germans under the Third Reich had no reservations as to slaughtering jews. By 1945, that viewpoint had changed. YOU, probably used to cry to get your mother to give you the things you wanted. I know I certainly did. Life experience and education changed my point of view about using this tactic for my own material gain, as I hope it did for you as well. MY point is that people often have a point of view and a set of beliefs based upon the relevant information they possess thus far. That isn't to say their conception of the world and the things that fit into their moral framework are never subject to change as you suggested. If a persons knowledge is expanded via a life-changing experience, or further education, you can hardly call them hypocritical for changing their point of view. Using your narrow logic, every student in the world and every grown adult would have to be labeled a hypocrit, as I'm sure all of us have expanded our point of view on a number of subjects over the course of our lives.

So in your world, people aren't able to change their minds? You have to take a stand and maintain that stand all your life? Circumstances can't make you change your views? You can't ever grow in your knowledge or in your feelings about something? You are just born to believe and feel a certain way? Better go tell the Russians they can't have a democracy. Better tell the Americans they are still subjects of the British Empire. Better tell the Germans to start killing jews again. Better tell your mama you want candy or you'll cry. Better forget everything you've learned since the day you were born, else you'll be a hypocrit yourself. That is the single most narrow-minded and ignorant argument I've ever heard. Please try not to sound retarded in your reply.

You have got to be kidding me!? You don't think much of her stand on stem cell research. What better reason could she have for promoting it? If you got diagnosed with terminal cancer tomorrow, would you be happy if people wrote off your advocacy for ehanced cancer research? That is simply a narrow-minded and extremely un-empathetic point of view.

Perhaps they have a greater sense of patriotism than you do exercising their first amendment rights in the name of humor when supposedly "patriotic" types like yourself are all to eager to stifle or even take away those rights in the name of loyalty or worse safety. Remember, the President isn't the king, and for those of you eager to coronate him and make him something other than what he is, a civil servant, you have the architects of this nation rolling in their graves. They gave you your freedom of speech and your vote precisely to be able to bash the President all you want. He works for you after all. You have the right and the responsibility to criticize him and even to fire him if he doesn't meet your standards. The framers didn't want all the pomp and circumstance to go with the office of the Presidency, they wanted him to be one among a number of citizens. A gentleman farmer, someone that all citizens could speak to and someone that any citizen (who was white and owned property) could become. The danger is that over the years we've given the President a power and a mystique that would have horrified the founding fathers. They had just fought a revolution against tyranny, and knew all too well that democracy is the form of government that degenerates quickest into tyranny or dictatorship. Please do not, in your ignorant conception of things patriotic, do your fellow citizens the disservice of making this nightmare that much closer to our day to day reality.

The problem with the primary system is that it brought money into politics on a scale never before seen. It used to be with the convention system that the party would pick loyal old salts well-versed in politics from a pool of experienced politicians and would-be candidates. Now, anyone with enough money can get up, look at themselves in the mirror one morning and announce they are going to run. With enough juice, these guys can get the publicity necessary to overrun even the more experienced and worthy candidates like Bush did to McCain in 2000.

Typical mindless Bush supporter. Mouths the words of support that have been drilled into his washed brain and then dodges out with his hands over his ears to avoid hearing any semblance of the truth. If it ain't the party line, just shout loud enough to drown it out so you and others don't hear it. Then repeat the mantras you've been taught long enough to make them seem true in your mind.

Truth is many the people who roam this offtopic forum need to give up the trolling and find soemthing more productive to do with their time. I almost never venture into these damn political discussions because I see nothing but hatred of americans and their government. I dunno, maybe this is your only outlit for your anger against us, because I can't think of anything you can do that would actually be constructive and that would actually influence world politics. Complaining in favor or against anything thing really has no effect. As my speech teacher once said "People get this strange idea that they can convince someone, no matter how strongly they feel about something, to go the other way. This is simpily untrue and a waste of everyones time." Find a better way to change our foreign policy other than trying to convince total strangers on a forum that they need to change their beliefs in their government, because that will never work except with the weak minded, and I don't see any weak minded individuals on either side of this debate. Just some thoughts. Have a nice evening gentlemen, I have wasted enough time with this thread. First of all, who the fuck are you to tell people what or what not to do with their lives? Secondly, your statement is among the most ignorant I've ever seen posted on any board I've ever participated on. You see nothing but hatred of Americans and our government? I see nothing but a few perplexed foreigners and a lot of patriotic Americans wondering exactly what the fuck happened to the real American government, the Constitution and democracy in general. Have you read the history of our republic? Have you read the Federalist Papers, the Constitution for that matter? Do you know how this government is supposed to work as opposed to how it is currently working? I highly doubt it based upon the ignorance in your latest response. You call those who voice their concerns here unpatriotic? What fits into your definition of patriotism then? Is it ignoring any and every action of the government including those that trample upon your civil rights, the Constitution and the spirit of democracy this nation was founded upon? Is is pledging blind allegiance and fealty to the administration and never questioning the actions they take or the decisions they make? YOU are a free person, with rights to determine what best suits yourself in your pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. You have been given a voice and a stake in this government with your vote and this government serves you, not the other way around. It is not only your privelege to examine, understand and even criticisize the actions of your government, it is your duty and responsibility as a free person and you owe it to those who died to give you that right to follow up on your obligation. You don't think it's constructive to examine the current policies of this nation and to critisize them when they don't fit each individual free person's views of what this democracy should be? What's the point of voting then? What's the point of one man one vote? What's the point of free speech? What's the point of the first ten amendments that secure the blessings of liberty to the INDIVIDUAL? What's the point of a federalist system that creates three branches of government and a series of checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of the majority? Why not have a dictatorship where your opinion of the government is given to you and your "vote" is pre-determined? We all then could be good little patriotic citizens, mind numbingly sieheiling the fuhrer and robotically voicing our undying allegiance. YOU are the greatest enemy to democracy and the American Revolution. YOU are the greatest fear of the founding fathers. YOU are the destroyer of liberty and the detractor of the Constitution. YOU are the empowerer of tyrants and the facilitator of oppression. YOU in your ignorance are the very reason this government will and is falling. You don't believe you can influence politics, even after only 537 people picked this President? You should believe now more than ever before. You should examine what is going on, be concerned over the future, wonder and worry what country your children will inherit. You don't believe a handful of people can make a difference? Tell that to Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, George Washington, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin and a handful of other brave patriots voicing their protest, sharing their opinion, and having the guts to stand up to the majority and to their government and do something about their beliefs. Here, go and learn something about your freedom, you owe it to those who died giving it to you: How a handful of protestors changed the world

Funny how the Berger investigation, which has been ongoing since last october was suddenly leaked to the press just a day before the 9-11 Commission report is released. Smoke and mirrors anyone?

Again with the tards who think the moon landing was faked.

I was an Aerographer's Mate 2nd Class in the Navy from 1993-1999. That's an E-5 weatherman to you grunt types! I did all the flight weather briefings for those A-6E and F/A-18 pilots dropping ordnance on whatever target they had that day. Â Also did flight weather profiles and flight plans for P-3 drivers, assorted rotorheads and the occasional F-14 jock. I did a brief stint at the Joint Typhoon Warning Center in Guam doing ship routing and routine local weather observations. I am a qualified diver and subject matter instructor as well. Now, I'm a full-time student at the University of Arizona, I'm a Political Science/Pre-law senior. I also work as a plain clothes security officer for a major national retailer, arrresting shoplifters for a living.

Right well, You know. Maintaining the Most Powerful military on earth costs alot of money. Free Medicare is dumb, you just get stuck on a damn Waiting list, whilst the Rich get their appointments REAL snappy. Also, It's not pissing it away. That comment just pissed me off BIG time. Who said anything about free medicare? It is just that healthcare should be accessible to everyone, and not just a select few. I lost my brother to cancer recently, and he had excellent health care coverage. I can only imagine how horrible it must be for people with lousy hmo's or worse, no insurance. It's easy to sit back and tell people to earn more or get a better job, but when the doctors are telling you and your family, "Sorry, there's nothing we can do for you, go home and die" while some rich bastard gets all the new experimental treatments, then see if you care or not.

The really funny aspect to all this is that as a member of the middle class, you didn't really get a tax cut at all. Those federal dollars that went to funding important programs like road maintenance, education, law enforcement, emergency medical care, and even homeland security had to be made up on the State level. You now pay higher sales tax, property tax and State income tax to cover the deficit. Where the State can't or won't cover the losses of federal supplements, you have lost out on all those goods and services. In effect, you are paying the same if not more in taxes than you were before and the local and State governments are having a rough go of it. Bush essentially fucked you in the ass, kissed you on the face and made you feel like you asked for it it to happen. The problem is, that nagging soreness just won't go away.

I think you need to look deeper into the Kerry plan for tax cuts and health care. He isn't going to raise your taxes to 35%. This government wastes more money on pork that could be going towards that healthcare. Kerry probably won't make much of a dent in that trend, but he's definitely better than the corporate lackey Bush. Look at Bush's latest drug plan, big pharmaceutical companies were the only real beneficiaries. You should be pissed that your government no longer looks after your best interests, but rather cowtows to their corporate financier handlers. This is no longer a democracy.

I'm not going to feel bad at all, Kerry's tax plan calls for rolling back the cut for only the wealthiest 5% of americans. Considering that these people make thousands of times the annual income of the middle class I really don't give a shit for their awful plight. Maybe now, they'll pay their fair share and my kids can be eligible for things like student loans, grants and health care.