Schoeler

As you all can see, Agent Smith has been extremely busy! Compared to him, I've been slacking, but I do have some progress on my Middle Eastern buildings projects. My second one is here: Source photo: My rendition: Some additional shots of details and car parts: Next I'll add some lighting and conduit and a few other details and then it will be released. All buildings will be released individually and also later, in a 10 building pack.

Spock, the Franco-U.S. relationship has not been always "peachy" or "perfect" throughout history. Some of France actions during the U.N. thingy was.....:crazy: (i.e. running to Africa to get the Africans to vote no and etc.). I think you should further research the important role France played in our revolution and the important role the U.S. played in both European Wars with respect to France before you continue to embarass yourself with ignorant statements.

God I hope you are right Walker. I just spent the week entertaining a good friend from France. We talked incessantly about the corrupt administration here in America and about Franco-U.S. relations since the Bush Presidency. It's sad really that two nations who have been key friends for over two centuries have had their relationship strained by one simple bumpkin asshole. I fear that this administration's abuse of power has set a precedent in subverting the Constitution that this country will never recover from. Historically, once the limits of power have been extended for the Executive branch, they have not been retracted. My strongest fear is that the United States is slipping into facism and dictatorship or only slightly less troubling, a totalitarian democracy. I fear that if the abuse of power and the corruption remain unchecked that civil war or revolution may remain the only option to restoring out government to its original function and intent. The damage this administration has done will take generations to recover from.

How about using set object texture along with a script to change the model's hand textures to include a pack of cigarettes and another to include the cigarette itself?

I actually modelled cigarettes and packs for about ten different brands the last time this was brought up. Â Let me know if you want them and I'll send them to you. The zippo isn't modelled, but anyone who wants the texture can have it. I might model this in a little while. I just need to wrap up some of my current projects. It would be cool is someone could do a zippo animation an make one guy flip it open and then light another's cigarette.

I want that camel in the background. Where did that come from?

I want that camel in the background. Where did that come from?

And another anti-American comment from you Albert, which frankly I find ironic given that you criticize us for denigrating those whose opinion differs from our own when in point of fact you have and repeatedly continue to do the very same thing. Shall I offer other examples of yours and other's hypocrisy on these forums or would you rather avoid the public embarassment?

I've got my towel out just in case. Now where's Ford gotten off to?

Albert, I see you've elected to give me my opinion and then express it for me, so ordinarily there would be no need to comment since you've seen fit to pre-express what you imagine would be my point of view. Unfortunately, your preconceptions of how I feel about the war and the way I would react to this abuse are grossly inaccurate and unfair. Since you have resorted to this sort of unfair slander, I will deal with that issue in due time. I can assure you my response will be equally as fair as yours. In the meantime: I completely disagree. Guilty or not, abuse of this sort against anyone in custody is deplorable. The persons guilty of these crimes should be turned over to an Iraqi tribunal for prosecution immediately. Those in charge should be tried under the UCMJ at a courts marshall and they should be imprisoned. Senior level commanders should be stripped of their rank, benefits and retirement and dishonorably discharged. The Secretary of Defense should be fired, and the President should personally apologize to each of the tortured prisoners and their families and should personally see to it they are compensated for the abuse. Abu Gharaib should be bulldozed to the ground and a school or hospital should be built where it now stands.

That's the thing, its more important to them for them to be right and to be able to gloat than it is to have a stable Iraq or to save lives. It's okay that people are dying because it gives them a reason to criticize America. it's gone way beyond simply disagreeing with the war to just plain ugliness. I would never wish failure upon anyone's military to the detriment of the soldiers and the nation they were trying to stabilize just so that I could be in a position to gloat.

Again, I'm not complaining about the criticism. I am pointing out the ugliness of certain people who seem to get a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment over the failure so far to stabilize Iraq. That is twisted. People who are happy to see two countries go to shit so they can gloat, point their fingers and say "See, I told you so!" are jackasses. I get the feeling that that sentiment is behind a lot of the criticism on this board. Perhaps that is just me, but a careful search throguh this thread would easily expose what I am talking about and I think most of you know that. I'm not going to pretend it hasn't happened.

I don't want to get into it again, but complaining about people who point out how things are going was not what I did. I am just saying that people who obviously get pleasure from pointing out American failures need to get therapy and are also angering the Americans. I don't need to disconnect how I feel about Americans from how I feel about our current foreign policy because our current policy is getting my fellow Americans killed. I don't think a disconnect would be appropriate or possible for me so long as people continue dying and I don't get any joy from seeing this nation or its policies fail simply because it affords me the opportunity to point out how right I was from the beginning. i think the larger issues of war, death, prosperity for the Iraqi people outweigh personal gratification and ego stroking and I refuse to partcipate in or coutnenance anyone who uses this as an opportunity to stroke their ego. I don't need to be reminded that this war was a mistake by certain people here over and over and over again, especially when that reminder comes in a pernicious form. The nightly news and the images of bodies both American and Iraqi are reminder enough. While I feel that reasoned and informed debate on this subject should be welcomed and is helpful, I think that gloating and America bashing are petty and juvenile forms of behavior that have no place in this forum. That isn't censorship, it is simple propriety and decorum. I'm not trying to silence you, all I'm saying is please show a little sensitivity in your criticism.

Bals, Why don't we bury the hatchet and shake hands? Â I am not accusing you of this personally, but it seems to me, and I suspect a lot of the Americans here, that the non-American anti-war types gleefully post any news they can find about American mistakes, failures or defeats. Â Its almost as if they enjoy the fact that things are not going well so that they can repeatedly say "I told you so" and rub our noses in it. Â Considering that to a man, almost all of the Americans here (Especially myself, Ralph, Tex and others) are opposed to the war, I don't see a great need for that kind of treatment from our supposed foreign "friends". Â It only breeds anger, resentment and the desire to stand our ground whether or not we are right or wrong. Â One thing you may not understand about Americans is that we are very proud and we don't shy away from a fight. Â Once you get our dander up, its hard to get us to stand down. I completely agree with your sentiments about this war. Â It was unecessary and reforming Iraq probably could have been achieved in a more peaceful manner. Â But the fact is that we are in it now and we are committed to seeing the whole thing through. Â We owe that much to the Iraqis. Â Americans are now fervently hoping our Administration can get its shit together, fix the problem and bring our troops home. Â So when we see setbacks, increasing violence and the prospect for failure, it is deeply troubling to us both for the sake of our troops and especially for that of the Iraqi people. Â Just because we want to see the war go well, does not mean we support the reason for going to war. Â I take extreme umbrage whenever I see a post in this topic that celebrates our problems in Iraq. Â I think people who get a kick out of pointing our problems out to us, when we are already well aware of them need to get some psychological help. Â It's really just sick. Â Again, I'm not accusing you of this, but it does seem to be present in the general tone of some of the more recent posts on the board. Â There comes a point where anyone who really cares about this issue will just get sick of that kind of exploitation and react badly to it. Â That is what happened with me. I am not trying to ignore the war, its impact on everybody, or to censor your views. Â I am trying to point out to you and especially to some others that you might consider taking more time and care in posting, especially when regarding the sensitivity the Americans and God forbid, any poor Iraqis who might venture here have towards this subject. Â People are still dying, more probably will and we don't want to see things going badly. Â It is very troublesome to us already and people who gloat over our troubles are likely to get the verbally equivalent response of an enraged punch in the nose. Â It may not be the right reaction to such pettiness, but it is the natural human reaction. Â When people become that angry, they interpret things differently. Â I was angry enough to think you may have been behaving as badly as I suspected others were, which is why I came at you swinging. Â I'm a fair guy and now that I've had time to cool off, I can re-evaluate the things you've said and I admit, I believe that you aren't anti-American, just anti-War. Â Since we share the same feelings on the subject, it is strange that we have been fighting so intensely. Â Please, just take the time to make your news updates just that, updates and not as if they are a way of chastizing the Americans here.

If it was personal, it was indirect. It's exactly the same tack you took when I found fault with you. Funny, its okay for you to do, but not for me. I also find it funny that you can see through the nature of that post, but not your own. If you want to continue this discussion, move it to pm. I'm getting tired of the back and forth.

Warin's warning was for both of us not to devolve into personal warfare. In the post you quoted I have refrained from personal attack and made a very valid, non-personal argument about my point of view. You don't have to take it if you don't want to, but you can't say I flamed you. I have a right to argue my point of view. I have a right to point out behavior I find offensive, and I will exercise that right. I dislike arguments that exploit world events for the purpose of spewing venom, especially when the venom is unwarranted. If you want to maintain peace on this board, then stop using this topic to elicit angry responses via indirect attacks on the American people. I couldn't agree with you more that this war was a mistake. I couldn't agree more that the American people were mislead, that the Administration is corrupt, arrogant and dangerous to the world. I cannot disagree more though when I see every opportunity exploited to heap criticism on America. Especially, when in this instance there was no cause for criticism. I don't deny you the right to criticize the administration, the military, American foreign policy, or even the American people, so long as that criticism is fair-minded and warranted. When it is made out of spite, is unfair in nature, designed to elicit anger or to insult, or simply a cheap attempt to cast aspersion, I will call attention to it.

Tovarish, I understand there are many meanings and types of retreat, but the way in which the word was used implied defeat. It is plain from the language that was used that it was intended to insult and to start a fight. Flamebaiting begets firestorms. Normally, I have a pretty even temper, but when I see people using events like the Marine withdrawal from Fallujah as a platform from which to launch thinly veiled attacks and insults at the Americans here or at the American people in general, I get pretty pissed. I don't see any reason for anyone here to hide what they are really trying to say in a poorly contrived and indirect attack. The decision to withdraw the Marines was not made out of cowardice and it was not mandated by defeat. It was made to stop a lot of unecessary bloodshed and to approach the problem from a new, more peaceful angle. I don't care if you are pro-American, anti-American, pro-war, anti-war, whatever. There is no denying it was the right thing to do and if someone can't even admit to that much, then they are simply being an ass and looking to start a fight. I am vehemently opposed to this war, have never concealed my feelings about that, and yet, I am not so narrow-minded or selfish or silly or just plain petty that I can't acknolwedge when a smart move was made. Some people are so anti-war or anti-American that they will seize every opportunity possible to criticize American decisions, whether or not the criticism was merited. Those people seem to argue and to insult no matter what the decision. First they argue one way, for example that the U.S. is too aggressive, then, when the U.S. takes on a more pacifist stance, they argue the other, that the U.S. is cowardly, or was defeated. That kind of tactic is underhanded, hypocritical, juvenile and ridiculuous. It is nothing more than a spiteful attempt to capitalize on any opportunity to heave venom and hatred on the American military, the American press, and the American people in general, and I won't stand idly by with my thumb up my ass and allow it to happen. I will refrain from personal attacks from this point on, as they simply devolve into ugliness and illogical back and forth warfare rather than reasoned debate, but I will not hesitiate to call things the way I see them, and right now I see hypocrisy.

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts. Ill leave it at that, lol. I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition. So let me get this straight. Â You can use language guaranteed to incite a heated response by characterzing the Marine withdrawal as a retreat, which in english in case you aren't aware, suggests they were defeated and had to pull back rather than what actually happened. And yet, he cannot respond to your insults? That's really fucking priceless Bn880, just who the fuck do you think you are? Excuse me? Â I see that this problem named Fallujah is bothering you a little too much to discuss reasonably. Â I interpreted the event in and aroudn Fallujah, and you are attaacking me personally, and so was he. Â Who do you think you are? Â Need I remind you who was right the last time you had a tamper tantrum at me? EDIT: You are lying in the post above, see ya, I'm not discussing with you. You're realy a piece of work you know that? You were right the last time we butted heads? Now you've really got me laughing. Keep up with your hysterics, and keep posting alarmist messages based off information from your oh so credible sources, everyone can see it for what it is.

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts. Ill leave it at that, lol. I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition. So let me get this straight. Â You can use language guaranteed to incite a heated response by characterzing the Marine withdrawal as a retreat, which in english in case you aren't aware, suggests they were defeated and had to pull back rather than what actually happened. And yet, he cannot respond to your insults? That's really fucking priceless Bn880, just who the fuck do you think you are? You can insult the American military, you can insult the American press, you can insult MLF, but the minute he responds in a manner you find insulting, you demand he keep his mouth shut? I don't think so. Â If our laughter at your exagerrations and blatant anti-American sentiment is something you find insulting, just remember that you characterizing our Marines as cowards, our decision to withdraw and end the violence as a retreat that was necessitated by defeat, and our press as a bunch of propaganda spewing liars, is extremely insulting to us. I find your indignation laughably hypocritical, and if this insults you further, well whoopty-fucking-do! You started this argument with flamethrower language and then you act shocked that it started a fire? Â Frankly I find that unbelievable. If you want to step back and return to reasoned debate, I challenge you to show how the Marines were defeated and had to withdraw. Â If you can't do that, stop calling it a retreat.

First of all, I have never advocated this war for the reasons that were used. Â I have been a vocal and frequent critic of the Bush Administration and its foreign policy from day one. Â Look back to the very first Iraq thread, long before the war ever started and you will find that I predicted exactly what is happening today. I have expressed this very same opinion numerous times myself. Â A simple search would reveal that. I particularly resent being arbitrarily and capriciously branded a Bush supporter simply because I elected to stand my ground in an argument where I thought the opposition was being malicious and unfair. Â I wasn't supporting the action in Fallujah, I was ripping on the alarmist nature and exaggeration of some of the more recent posts that I have seen. Â This is not the first, nor will it be the last time that I point out a post that I find ridiculuous on its face. I challenge anyone here to find one single post where I have praised or supported the Bush Administration. Â I never have. Â What I have done is never fail to take the opportunity to criticize a bunch of neocon boobs, thugs and morons that are ripping my country apart. I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that you had been nominated the sole arbiter of what is real and what is not. Â Had I been aware, I never would have questioned the authority of your statements with my debate. Normally I am all for reasoned, polite and enlightening debate, but I cannot simply stand by and watch people try and argue from both sides of the podium when it suits them.

This to me is a poorly contrived way of saying the Marines were defeated. Â I think that is plainly a mis-characterization of what took place. Â As to your motives for choosing to phrase the decision to pull out in this manner, I can only speculate. Since you seemed to have been in favor of a peaceful solution to the standoff, yet now see fit to criticize a withdrawal of forces in the spirit of achieving just that sort of solution I ask you: What would you have had us do? Criticism is the easy part, coming up with an answer is much more difficult. Â The way I see it, things were breaking down, the chance to achieve peace was rapidly eroding and there were only two choices left. Â 1) Go in and root the insurgents out and kill them, 2) Withdraw and find a peaceful solution. Option two was the right choice. Â I think you believe it was the right choice as well. Â What I can't understand is why you simply can't come out and say that. Â It seems, and I may be wrong here, that anti-American sentiment prevents you from acknolwedging any good decision made. edit: spelling errors

If you consider "the economy" to be the NASDAQ index or the S&P 500, then yes, things are looking rosy. If you consider it to be real income and purchasing power or new jobs created, then no, things aren't too hot right now. I hate to burst your bubble, but GDP is no longer considered a reliable or accurate barometer of a country's true economic strength. PPP (purchasing power parity) is now a much better means of coparing ecomomies. Paying for the war and increased retail sales are anomalous and not a good indicator of improvement. The increased spending in the retail sector happened with the first wave of income tax refunds. It should peter out. Did he also mention the interest rate is about to go sky high? Job creation wasn't new job creation, it was mostly in hirebacks for laid off workers. Meanwhile, retail and fast food sector jobs are growing while higher paying jobs continue to be exported overseas. Food and energy prices are the two best indexes for evaluating real income and economic well-being. If you can't afford gas and milk in America, something is very, very wrong.

The did. They did shell it. ref I'm not even going to bother to find you a reference. This is what they did. You can find pictures and videos as well as coalition statements everywhere. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3599993.stm http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/05/iraq.main/ http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oif-vigilant-resolve.htm Denoir, those were pinprick attacks in comparison to the effort that would have occurred if they intended to capture and hold the city. Now who's dressing things up in revisionist colors? Really, a few Abrams and two AC-130's? The F-15E strikes were a bit excessive, but from what I've seen, they were isolated to two pockets of heavy resistance in a warehouse district.

I am just extremely irritated by people who seem to think its acceptable to criticize American actions no matter what they are. Do I think we should be in Iraq? No. Do I think we should pull out now? No friggin way. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. We owe that to the Iraqi people. What pisses me off is when we do end up doing the right thing, like pulling out of Fallujah, some people just can't seem to give credit where credit is due. Pulling out was a good decision, it shouldn't be mis-characterized. I think certain people are explioting certain subjects to covertly air a thinly veiled anti-American sentiment. I see no fault in challenging them to stand up for themselves and actually say what they are thinking. @Denoir You of all people should know I'm not one of those "my country, right or wrong" types. But I don't like hypocrisy and I don't like deflected, concealed or indirect attacks. If someone wants to bash America, go right ahead. I'll either agree or fight back depending upon my views. I just resent hidden agendas. I'm not saying this is you or Bals, but at times it sure feels that way.

I am just getting sick of anti-Americanism being hypocritically colored under false pretexts, so why hide it? All of you anti-American bashers, here is the opportunity to air your true feelings about why America is evil, bad, corrupt, immoral, cowardly, over-aggressive, expolitive, whatever.. Quit hiding behind the other threads and repressing your feelings, it's unhealthy. Besides, why fight little brushfire wars in the guise of other topics, we might as well break out the big guns.