Predator555

a solution would be for the characterss head to be capable of turning so he can look over his shoulder, this applies to both the human character of the AI character if in the center of your screen you see a door then in 3rd person the characters eyes should be focused on that same door, its not that hard a concept and i doubt it would have been especially hard to implement either, i dont know why they chose to limit how far you can turn your head yet still give you the full view if not a bug, then a design flaw thats not a good justification to give the AI unrealistic abilities, and neither is the fact that we have the same abilities in game, we should all be looking for realism in a simulation like Armed Assault and the current setup is not realistic, if i see an AI has turned his head a certain angle i dont expect him to be able to see beyond what i would expect a similar human person to see in real life. agreed, armed assault is a very good simulation in a lot of respects but i am dissapointed in you that you continue to try to justify a clear design flaw, like i said before this could be easily remedied if BIS had designed the heads as i said so that the centre of their "screen" corresponds to the position that the eyes focus on and also BIS should have allowed the AI to turn their heads to look over their shoulders. Â Had they done this i could have had no complaints, the AI soldier would have looked straight at me. EDIT also it should be noted that again errors in my SOP arent relevant, we are testing the game here in a particuar scenario, but the aim is to test the levels of realism in the game, just because you could have completed the scenario in a better way is not important and would not justify the design flaw, although i agree with you that i could perhaps have been better concealed. What you are saying is no different to me saying that if a game has bugged weapons that cannot fire that it was the players fault for not using a grenade because in that particular case it may or may not have been the better choice even though the bugged weapon is the issue, do you know what i mean?

ok i think it would be best to keep the philosophy out, lets keep it to questions about realism of the simulation and how accurately it portrays the real world rather than questions about whether or not the AI is alive or not simply we want to know, 1) is the AI behaving realistically as humans would when put in a similar situation? my answer is no, and i think anyone who looks at the videos and tests themselves would agree, the AI will detect you a significantly higher percentage of the time than a human soldier in real life. I accept that it would be possible for a human soldier to detect you, you have changed my mind on that somewhat, however i would assess that risk as being medium to low, certainly not every time. 2) can this be fixed my answer is i think it would take a small fix, i accept your comments about limitations of computers for modelling peripheral vision, i think it probably could be represented on monitors with some innovative thinking but for now it cannot. i think it would be better if it cant be done well then either just dont bother with it like most games or come to a compromise on the view and reduce the ability of the AI to spot you some, that would probably satisfy me.

so you agree that it is a flaw in the game that when the AI is looking left 60 degrees it sees objects that would possibly be in its peripheral vision in real life yet cannot see objects that in real life would be at the centre of a real persons view like the barn? seems a little crazy dont you think and allows for situations to arise where you dont think you should have been spotted but in fact have been, remember if this is BIS's way of modelling peripheral vision which may i add i doubt then then we must remember that peripheral vision is unreliable and unclear especially when we consider the distances involved which while small are pretty significant when it comes to how it would effect peripheral vision in real life, peripheral vision is better than nothing but that is all it is and certainly not as fullproof as the AI's appears to be. there is still something wrong here, whether it is as small an issue as the AI having to good a peripheral vision or not there is something wrong. if this were carried out in real life how many times out of 100 would you be spotted if the soldiers only looked left and right 60 degrees, my guess is that it would be a  very small amount of times that you were spotted with this "peripheral vision", certainly nowhere close to 100% of the time

ok, so just another question how does the amount an AI soldier has turned his head correspond to his view in 1st person this is an image of the 1st man in the patrol taken fromthe eyes of the 2nd man in the patrol using Keykats script now i would expect him to be able to see the barn but actually his view is this so he cannot see the barn but can see much further than he should be able too, try it yourself and see this is a big problem imo, if i see the AI's head turn left 60 degrees i expect him to see what i would see by looking left 60 degrees, instead he can see what i would see by lookiing over my shoulder, so in effect i do not think i have been spotted but i have been which is unfair. do you all know what i mean? or am i just completely wrong?

thanks for the method Walker, ill look at it tomorrow, any thoughts on the rest of my post?

good video and yes, the scientific approach is always the best one, im glad you said that but just to clarify one thing, the AI does not appear to turn its head by more than about 60 degrees to the left or the right, but from that video it appears you have to turn your head well over 90 degrees to the left to see me (looks about 125 degrees or so?), something which the AI does not do on its patrols am i mistaken or were you simply proving that i was visible from my position, if that is the case then it does not explain why i get spotted especially so late in the patrol. Â EDIT - perhaps a better test would be to simulate the AI patrol by actually doing it and scanning in the directions the AI do and then see if you can see me i did it and found it was near impossible to spot the hidden soldier. Â Im not familiar with how you are able to set one soldier in a position and then switch to another so perhaps you would be better doing it and recording it, if you have the time of course, i could only put a static soldier using the editor to a fairly close position to the one i took up in my video.

appreciate the first video anyway can you post a second video of your proof that it is not a bug, id be happy to be proved wrong EDIT - (btw i hope you have my position correct, use the video i posted, the position you start in the test mission is not a position i would expect to go unnoticed from, in the video i clearly move to a slightly better position, more closely tucked into the wall and peeking) link is still the same - http://www.savefile.com/files/1586885

It may be close to "nitpicking" but I see nothing wrong to have a proper discussion on how to improve AI (and other things) in ArmA. I quote Q and The-F from their PROPER AI Test Framework readme which I also agree with. I think it's kinda unrealistic to expect that BIS would have resources to tweak every value to perfection... And who knows, while tweaking and testing different things some may unveal a real bug/issue that may be corrected in a future patch or ArmA 2. I currently don't see this as a bug per se but after playing around with your mission I think the AI's current peripheral vision could be toned down a notch or two since IMO they are a bit to good to detect static targets in the corner of their eyes. I'm looking thru the config files and can't find any value to to adjust the AI's FOV ( am I missing it? ) but there is a value that sets their min/max headturn in degrees (which seems to be 120 degrees for soldiers). <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE"> Â minHeadTurnAI = -60; Â maxHeadTurnAI = 60; I will play around with thoose values and see if things improves or not. A thing I noticed while testing is that sometimes the AI's head movement becomes kinda spasmatic when they scans left/right, no big deal but looks kinda funny and just telling what I observed... /KC thanks, i noticed the spasmatic ai head movement as well, its a little strange. i agree with you, no matter what others have said i just find that at the edges of the AI sight are to wide and as clear for them as something dead in front of them as for the issue of peripheral vision, well i highly doubt this was modelled for the AI, they will just have a sector of vision that they can see, simple as that but if someone can point out that BIS actually did model it then im happy to be proved wrong perhaps the issue is exactly that, the AI has normal vision where there should be a blurred and unreliable peripheral vision at the extreme edges of their sights.

yep, well i hope it is fixed because its bloody annoying

ok, but you seem to be under the impression that i am looking for a solution to this mission, i am not. i simply wish to know if it was fair to expect to go unoticed when in the position i took in the video i posted. to me if i did that in real life i would not expect to be spotted but am i wrong? or is it a fault of the game?

you could all be right but to me it does not seem realistic. Â just for the record i always hug the wall and do not stand in the open doorway but there are 2 issues. Â Firstly i would not expect the enemies peripheral vision to be able to spot me considering both the distance and how much his head has turned. Â Secondly even if i was within the range of his peripheral vision then that is no guarantee that i will be spotted, i think the distance is great and i am at best on the absolute edge of his sights. Â when we consider that he is in a "safe" behaviour mode it is even more unlikely that he would see me, sure it may be possible, its also possible lightning could strike me down but not on a consistent basis. Â The AI spots me almost every time i have attached a video of me trying the test mission, i hope you take the time to view it and compare it to your own efforts and tell me if i am being unrealistic in my expectations of not being spotted. Â maybe im nitpicking or just plain wrong, what do you all think? here is the file, AI is in "safe" behaviour and difficulty is "normal" http://www.savefile.com/files/1586885 EDIT - just rereading some of the posts (especialy in response to Walker) and im not looking for a way to beat the game by looking through cracks in walls and the like, i simply want to be able to stand in a realistic ambush position and have a good chance even if not 100% Â of remaining unseen

anyone else find this annoying or is there a fix for it?

i know what you mean but really i wouldnt expect to be spotted from that posistion and the fact remains that a 1 man patrol will never spot you yet the 3 man patrol always will, that doesnt sit well with me, it should be more random but yes perhaps describing it as a bug is possibly too strong

correct

really hoping that this BFS game can be the continuation of the R6 and OGR series that we have all been waiting for Mr Sonedecker certainly is making all the right noises.