Przezdzieblo

Interesting. M60A1 with optic rangefinder and no thermal vision? Unmodernised? I could be... So I Gulf War-era ERA on USMC M60A1s would be nice ;) DKM Jaguar, M1s ripped by RPGs??? AFAIR in Iraq Abrams` are being ripped only by IEDs. RPG can be dangerous if hit from above, behind or flank - but the most of modern tanks (Challenger 2 included) got thin skin there and got problems in urban warfare.

CanadianTerror, good quality Polish Army troops you will find in vilas addons. I do not know how far is LWP with theis soldiers, but for addons of two above mentioned mods people who are interested in modern Polish Army would have to wait. So for today nothing newer than vilas. Are LWP`s truck good? ;) P.S. Oh, one thing - LWP published one armour addon, Polish camo T72M. Based on Sigma-6`s model has it`s accurate and few changes. I do not thing it would be final version (for many reasons), but this is not-another-one-Polish-truck-addon which you can play.

AFAIR USMC M60A3s in Operation Desert Storm had additional ERA armour.

Firstly - consisted, because LWP was (and probably still is) working on Polish military of Soviet Union-era and hipotetical Polish-Danish war in 1985. Secondly - not consist, because LWP already published screens and some betas which are not only screens and some betas of trucks ;) Just visit http://www.ofp.bmj.pl/lwpmod/ and look around. FerretFangs, I do not see any chance to see GROM troopers in mid 80`s, sorry. And I do not think so LWP mod team would. So, short resume - LWP mod make Polish Army of 80`s. Modern Polish forces are subjects of work of Silent War mod and Operacja Marchewka (Operation Carrot) half-mod (see forums, info on site is not first-fresh). There are also some old Wojsko Polskie (Polish Army) addons in Web, by Cristoph or SPD_Spider (offtime). And there are new addons by vilas (Revol333), who in very short period made many soldiers and vehicles models, which sometimes are very good stuff.

Please make a version with teddy bear http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/challenger_basrah.jpg Challenger 2 look great. Would it be balanced with RH addons or only orginal BIS tanks? For now it is thick as Sigma`s M1A2s but it`s ammo is really weak compared to M829s from M1s pack. Some strange thing with loader... sitting on the turret roof (FPP), piercing through it (internal view from commander`s sit), with no model apeared (external view).

Gimme, gimme

Well, that would be difficult because of standard: penetration capability in mm/2000 meters. But there is a hope: high velocity Russian APFSDS has diameter about 44 mm, more than the most of a bit slower but slimer Western rounds (even 27 mm). Decrease of velocity is in case of BM42 125m/s / 1000 m, in case of M829 rounds family 50-65 m/s /1000m (data from "NTW"). So it would look like this: BM42   velocity  penetration 0 m    1700 m/s     ? 1000 m  ~<1550 m/s  ? 2000 m  ~<1400 m/s  460 If someone think, it can count it, I encourage him to do it ;) P.S. I got also velocity comparison between old DK13 and BM15 and few counts for 27 mm l/d= >35 rounds. Interesting page: http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/ - there is that story about "happy" bullet.

Maybe "Ziel neutralisiert"

Sigma-6, those data is from "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" [New Military, erm, Technology?], article about modern tank ammo; and A. Wisniewski, W. Zurowski, "Amunicja i pancerze" (Ammunition and armours), Â Radom 2001. This first author is constuctor of Polish ERA and ceramic armour. Why "my" numbers for these Russian penetrators seem way too low for you for 2000m? As for "short and fat" (when compared with M829 family) and slower (at 2000 m) this values looks good. Thank for that data about Asad Babyls

da_ofp_man, I found another data. BM32 (DU) - 500/2000 BM42 - 460/2000 BM44 - 500/2000 or 600/2000 (! - this is interesting. The same, short and fat - when compared with Western "needles" - penetrator and so big difference?) The question is what BM42M can do and how does it looks like. Sigma-6, what do you mean by entire assembly? 3WBM17 has two "pieces". Another thing: only 50 from Russia and no more? Strange, "my" S. Zaloga "tells me" that the most of Iraqis panzerwaffe where Poland, Czechoslovakia and Russia imports. Another, "paper", Polish source gives the same info. Maybe there were some new reseraches...

Miles Teg, if you were reading carefully, you would see points in which I have doubts. Whipping the as of the Asad Babyl T-72 and Iraqi T-55s was none of this doubts. As I said before main problem for me was effectiveness of Russian armour pack. As now I know this addon pack is not "compatible" with the newest Sigma-6`s tanks. This case is over. I argued against high penetration ratio of the newest APFSDS rounds against the newest armour. In this case I do not give any others arguments. Becouse of Sigma-6`s statement, that he would probably not change those values, this case is also closed. That what you see above are OT posts, not only my. But indeed, it doesn`t matter, now it is discussion about beliefs, quiting bringing up arguments, military experience and Tom Clancy...

...and this is why I am seaking for Zaloga`s books (not only) when I need some data. In his book about "Abrams" if I remember he is quoting those story about "one shot two kills" but does not comment it. And I have that trouble Front turret armour more than 200 mm plus rear armour plus everything could be hit inside (gun elements). Hull hit? Here ammo and engine room can be obstacles in a straight way to blow up next tank. But as I said, maybe it happened. Just a trick. So happy Abrams` crew had double look: they meet two Iraqis "made in Iraq" tanks, one behind other, not T72 from import (which were not armoured enough to survive M829 hit, but made from good, steel). Do you know how many Asad Babyl were in Iraqis army compared to bought ones? Do you BELIEVE that thise story happened or do you KNOW i happened? See the difference. If we do not know, we might suppose and believe. I choosed second possibility and you, as I seen in your post, too. Now I can BELIEVE you that spending six years in mechanized, light and air assault units give a knowledge about this and that, including armour capabilities in duel with every projectile hostile fires... I wish that in Polish army young soldiers were trained so much. This is the other thing. Remember that you are not the only person who read books ;) And not only Clancy, who you do not like. Another thing: this is a topic about new (now not so new) Sigma-6`s addons. Some people can write something about textures , some about small model incorrectness. Others can doubt in armour/rounds performances. I do not see any reason why the last group cannot discuss with Sigma-6` system. The one other thing - high quality of his addons and fact, that his system would be use in two big modes, makes possible, that it would be very popular. Also among addonmakers.

Hellfish6, I guess you have those mentioned experience and moderate level of understanding, to write here own beliefs (and even definately beliefs)? Maybe you are military expert? Armour constructor? Nevermind, please, do not mislead frases "In my opinnion", "I believe" or "I think that" with total ignorancy and arguments just taken from air. I would not say a word about penetration capabilities and armour level if I never saw it somewhere. No the question is where. Publications of S. Zaloga have comparable value (maybe better) than Clancy`s. Authors from military tech periodicals usually also use some sources, not only just imagine. I guess that armour constructors, who write a books that "non-expert" can read, use some good datas too. High velocity penetrators are fragile. There is a possibility that when piercing materials with different thickness (and also ERA armour) it would crumble. Becouse of there was, as I mentioned, situation with one tank set on fire by explosion of other, there was a possibility, that this coused destroying of two Iraqis tanks. Story about "one shot two kills" sounds more like a myth (but maybe happened, who knows? Hellfish6?).

I do not really believe in this story about destroying two T72s with one round that penetrated one and hit other. Even "soft turret" Asad Babyls have steel armour, if APFSDS pierced through front and rear turret armour possibly it have no more power to penetrate next tank`s protection. If it hit hull, the chance is smaller - must add to armour engine, probably auto-loader and gun basis. It is also hard to believe that after destoying one T72 APFSDS round still had shape and was stabile and was not fragmented. But there is some possibility of destroying two tanks with one shot. In 1991 there was a situation, when Abrams was set on fire by near explosion of T72. So maybe this is what happened with two T72. Decapitation of Abrams? No modern tank can survive giant bottom explosion. Even without bottom armour penetration and ammo blow up chances for crew are small. Quake kills, just like it happened with few Merkavas. da_ofp_man, any info about BM44? Lenght, diameter? I know only that it penetrate more than 500 mm RHA at 2000 meters... how much more? If not much more, it is rather opositor for M829A1, not for round M829E3 - hit=instant death in Sigmas addon - and even not for M829A3 - ~650mm/2000m.

Sounds accurate to me. . . You might recall a story in which the M1A1HA was unable to be destroyed by one of its platoon-mates to avoid capture in 1991. . . But I said about M1 ;) M1A1HA as you know is much better protected. M829 could penetrate front turret armour of M1, with M1A1HA it would be hard task. I also recall a story from last year, when one Abrams (M1A2?) damaged near Bagdad (seen in many News - stuck on a speedway with burning engine room, later with Iraqis around wreck) was first set on fire (.50 ammo in turret for better effect), then hit by another Abrams, eventually destroyed from air. Russian tank for today have better "self destroy" systems. About those powerfull Russian shells from 1950s... Maybe if we consider energy values, old, slower but heavier bullets had more energy (just after fired). Modern Russian APFSDS have also more energy than Western round (so are more powerfull in energy category), but this not mean are also more powerfull (in penetration ratio category). So there is something true on mentioned oppinion, but it easily leads to overinterpretation.

So talking about more than 30% of the frontal aspect was not needed. Not with M829E3. First hit always fatal. M829A2 - the second hit is fatal. On interestng thing - M1 can survive M829 hit... Nevermind, I stop to, as Miles Teg said, "arguing pointlessly". I suppose I would DL upcoming Russian T-tank pack even if BM32 round blow up M1A2 with one hit...

Sure, except that there are a lot of places where you can hit it. That armour only exists on the front of the turret. That's hardly more than 30% of the frontal aspect. if you hit an Abrams from the side, you can kill it pretty easily. Remember, OFP only allows you to set umbrella values for everything. I have no desire to have tanks surrounded completely by massively thick armour. To take it further, it's next to impossible to have these tanks perform 'realistically'. I've settled for 'as realistic as OFP will let me make them'. Put simply, I'm not adding my personal slant to these values. I'm doing constant research, and I'm plugging in what I believe to be the most reliable numbers. (as in, from the most reliable sources I can find/read/speak to). Here is the clue. I agree, OFP engine cannot simulate those various hit areas, for today `realistic` tanking is not possible. But please remember that even simple LAW could knock out even the newest M1A2 in some situations. Do you want also to simulate this possibility? To be consequent modeler would have to decrease his tank "hit points" to some strange average (how to count it? %, +, -, blablabla)... or take for HP value the lowest armour protection... or take for HP value the highest armour protection. In my oppinion the best of those three not realistic ways is that third. The most of tank vs tank duels in OFP are also face to face. Situations where human player can surprise AI tank from side or rear are rare. Sometimes it happens in MP, but... only sometimes. So those heavy armoured 30% are also those places, which are the most often hit by opponents tank (in OFP, and in real too). If we make some average HP values (or increase power of APFSDS above the armour performances) we would deprive a tank his main advantage - armour protection (from the other hand still against infantry this tank would be a beast). History is full of examples of competition between armour and weapon inventors. I do believe that today, probably at the end of tanks (in XX century categories) era those guys, who are inventing protection systems, are winning. 10-15 years ago DU and Tungsten rounds could penetrate the most of heavy MBT armour. M1A1 with M829 rounds was not untouchable for its own weapon. But the newest generations of armour probably gave modern MBT resistence for its rounds from the most menaced directions. Ok, after this hot statement (vote for me ;)) what is one possible way to deal with balance problems... The situation which in my oppinion is not realistic is "instant death" after one hit in M1A2 vs M1A2 duel (face to face, of course). As I wrote above increasing HP of tanks is bad way and it would make all AT soldiers cry. So maybe decrease APFSDS power? Not so, that mentioned M1A2 will survive direct 5, 10, 10432 APFSDS hits. But maybe those struck would knock out a tank without its destuction? Red/black barrel, turret malfunction, destroyed truck and crew forced to bail out. For M1 family it would be even more realistic, becouse of better crew survivalibility in those tanks (compared to Russian T72/T80/T90 family, where ammo explosion is fatal). I understand you did not take those values `just from air`, but I think you choosed not the best of mentioned above three ways. Well, I am not saying I am not curious abot the resoult of that duel.. but I hope I would not really see it soon ;) Not sooner than when the great voice from the sky tell us "I am Alpha and Omega, no more wars, game over, or I shall kick your asses etc." "imagine all the people living in peace" would test old wars relicts and shot M1A2 and Leopard 2 A6 each other.

da_ofp_man, if you have a link to DL... I did not see this model on ofp.gamezone.cz, strange. Sigma-6, now I see we have different data and its interpretation. If M1A2 has those 1000 mm RHA, no modern APFSDS can penetrate it (and in OFP destroying of tank with one shot should be not possible to balance the game). Indeed, ERA has some influence on tank survival ability when hit by APFSDS, but not as big as against HEAT. Do you hava another data about DM53 penetration ratio? Because now it looks like APFSDS with 700 mm RHA penetration could penetrate more than 750 mm RHA tank armour and in 40% of cases it could penetrate more than 750 mm RHA + additional ERA... Â Strange, but this are still calculations and discussion about not published final T72/T80/T90 addon pack. Do you agree that M1A2 has better front turret protection that the newest projectioles could penetrate? Or maybe you have another data where M829E3 rounds has much better perfermance than DM53 (and French round for their L55), even when fired from shorter barrel, and could penetrate those 1000 mm RHA (one meter :o) at 2000 meters?

Nice to hear it, hope it would appear soon, nice and shiny... Was there "previous PT-91" model? Never published, I suppose. Sigma-6, I now that there is no need to talk about old T72/T80/T90 packs untill you will publish new addons. But there is a chance to say something about M1/M1A1/M1A2/M60 pack. I agree that one M829 and M829A1 hit would destroy M1/M1A1. Front armour of those tanks was not untouchable for those projectiles. In this case the winner in duel M1A1 vs M1A1 would be tank which first succes to hit opponent. M829E3 has better penetrate ability but M1A2 has also better armour. If you have any www sources about M1A2`s front turret RHA equivalent I would like a lot to see it. In my, "paper" sources, the newest tanks from T90 family have front turret armour protection more than 750 mm. I do not think M1A2 has less. So even with superb M829E3, the newest generation DU round in my oppinion, M1A2 would not be able to penetrate front turret armour of another M1A2 (or T90) with one shot. With your addons in OFP it is possible. Still I cannot see the reason for making M829E3 so powerful when DK53 fired from longer barrel still rather would not penetrate T90`s (and comparable M1A2`s) front turret armour. So please consider this arguments which in my oppinion lead to make power of those tanks in OFP more balanced and eventually decrease power of hi-end projectiles (increasing number of "hit ponts" of M1A2s would destroy the balance, making those tanks invunerable for RPGs fire).

Indeed, there are some changes, new FCS, maybe new ammo (Polish tankist still use BM15, old steel penetrator), new camo... I know how does PT-91/PT-91M looks like, but if you want to show this MBT... please ;)

Well, if we speak about main armament of T72/T80/T90 and even T62/T64, I do not remember those tanks had rifled guns. Are you sure that 2A46 is rifled? All these guns (various types) are smoothbore. From the other hand - your T90`s (indeed old model, I do not DL addons that are not published) armament has better balistics than M256... strange for me. As above, with all consequences. You have right, 120 mm`s APFSDS are more stable. For today have also better penetration ratio, which is caused that the most od Western APFSDS are more slim. Compare dimensions of for example M829A1 penetrator and BM32. American APFSDS` have better sabots and are slimer. Why? maybe because of autoloader dimensions... With better ammo T72`s 2A46 would have better penetrate ratio. I simply cannot wait untill final version of T72/T80/T90 pack is published If the newest T90`s has front turret armour above 750 RHA and the best (today) APFSDS round, German DM53 (fired from Rh 120 mm L/55) could penetrate about 700 RHA at 2000 meter, I think that M829E3 fired from shorter barrel cannot deal with Russian armour. BM32 could penetrate about 500 RHA at 2000 meters, are you sure that T90S (even when hit where there is no reactive armour) could be destroyed with one hit in front of turret? Has it less than 500 RHA there? In my oppinion not with BM32 (and BM42 too). M1A1HA front turret armour is also untouchable for those rounds... As I just said I cannot wait. Many, many months ago there was an idea of making Polish T72M1 modification, PT-91 Twardy (this is also a new MBT of Malesia), I hope someday it would appear.

Ok, I did not read cerefully and thought the question is about sights, not its cover plates... So I think STGN`s statement is simple - there is something to fix. My questions are still about system of battle damage and too strong, in my oppinion, the newest M1A2`s/T80`s/T90 maind gun ammo.

STGN, has it two? Do you mean M1A2 leader`s CITV?

Their "modern" tanks weren't able to even knock one out. Am I getting through? They didn't have any modern tanks. Not even close. Did they tell you that and you believed them? Â So, maybe not modern compared to the M1 but how come they couldn't knock out any M60 tanks that the Marines were using at that time? The T-72 is a much newer tank than that one. Heard about some situation when M60 were facing T72 and T72`s projectiles failed to penetrate "American" armour? I do not know any situation like that... maybe happened. Asad Babyl is a Iraq build T72M1, but Iraqis army were not equipped only with those tanks. Many others were build far from Tigris and Eufrat. All of T72 type`s (independly from place of build) armour failed to protect vehicles from M829 hit.

Maybe Inseminators Addon Pack would help to rebuild the population? Try to hunt a hunter. It could newer be boring. In OFP I saw nailguns, Mechs, Terminators, now I see chickens and hear about deers... Is that really needed? I only count the minutes before local OFP Animals Liberation Movements will start to blow up hunters servers. And then new movements will raise! Communists Liberation, Women Liberation... Remember my words!