Pukko

I got a question on the ever present 'anti-a particular group of people' topic. We often hear people comlaining about 'anti-US' attitudes in threads like this. We also hear 'antisemite' in the midest thread (which in my opinion risks taking the words real meaning away with time, 'anti Israel' would probaly be a better word to be used by people who wants to accuse someone around there). Now to my question: Have anyone ever heard or used something like 'anti-muslim' ? Or is there even a special word for it? If not, why is it so?

Darklight, maybe you got it, but that was just some poor jokes by Albert  And denoir is not lying. I have indeed never heard of anyone getting punished for not using 'brass bags' in Sweden; on the other hand I dont think I have ever known someone who have not used a brass bag either Its just as narural to empty the bag once in a while (when it starts to become hard its full and must be emptied) as it is to empty one self when needed, no problem, one dont think about it since it becomes a natural part of the weapon. I made some scans tonight, and since this thread already has alot of swedish stuff, I thought I would post 2 pics from my military service, featuring discussed items: Here you can see both 'brass bags' and 'lösskutnings anordningar' on swedish high quality K-pist's (and alot of guys in old ugly uniforms during basic training) Here you can see a carrier of quite a big machinegun: JA 37 Viggen. To support your story Albert I can tell you that I have a empty 'Viggen gun' case (30 mm ammo) in my bookshelf. It was collected with a chopper from the ice of lake Storsjön by the 2:nd guy from the right, in the lower row - who served as a case-collector , no seriously he was a 'ytbärgare' (pilot rescuer) who collected some cases as souvenirs. ´ btw, both pictures features the same people, at the start and teh end of our 11 months military service at F4-Frösön

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 15 2003,08:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember the Canadian ground force troops killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame? Well, if USAF regulations allowed use of these pills and this can easily lead to cloudy judgement, then whoever approved this process should be put on trial - not the delirious pilots. Do other armed forces use amphetamines for similar purposes? Aren't there safer and effective alternatives? No-Doze comes to mind.<span id='postcolor'> Remember the Afgani civilians killed by bombs last year. Read this! Unbelievably pathetic! There are a lot of issues to discuss here. Who's to blame?.... sorry, could'nt resist Â

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Necromancer- @ Jan. 12 2003,22:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I consider every human who consumes a lot of the Earth's resources bad, including myself. The only things humans do that i consider "good" are humans that account OFP as a good game.<span id='postcolor'> I agree  I will not even get started in this discussion, but its nice to see that only 1 so far believe in such extremely simplified thinking. There is most certainly no such thing as anything 'absolute' in the entire universe (or indeed in any of the universes). Almost everything we know about human nature is just a product of our own time; what we today call a human being have never existed before, and will never exist again (atleast when talking in centuries). One positive thing (in my opinion) that most social researchers agree on is that human development goes more and more towards 'oceanic' charasteristics; that is (in my interpretion) away from more concrete rules and conceptions in society, and towards more abstract and undefined ones - which also brings the need of constant critical thinking... Certainly less productive but also more 'human'. Shit, I did got started in this discussion  Well, to finish off, a link to: the Milgram experiment Not the best site I could find indeed, but probably the shortest Now, are these people born EVIL - or are their actions just products of a social context???

Yeah, and now when I read through my dogmatic speculation (the kind of disturbing way I write most times) I thought about adding some about collective identity The point above is rather that we westeners (almost all of us here are probably such people) have a great part of our identity and most of what we consider to be good things from the rather abstract concept of 'western ideology'. That is, we are a part of the western world wether we like it or not - and as such we can be afraid of ourselves (what we could be like/are like) when we see our equals do some questionable things. Thats a disturbing feeling, and most certainly a great part of the reason why we care and find it important to discuss such questionable things that today primary Israel and USA do; and at the same time dont care much about all other conflicts around the world by non-westerners. Its they (non-westerners) and its us/we (westerners). Humans have always both a collective and private identity... And that takes me to the biggest problem that I see in the mideast conflict; the fact that the conflict probably plays an important role in the Israelis and Palestinians collective identity - a fear of what would be there instead if the conflict ended. What would keep them together, what would their lives be like when the most important thing that influenced their lives is gone? Its a perverse thing indeed to be fond of a conflict, but I really think thats a real problem here (another good example is probably USA - they had to have a new enemy after Sovjet, and got the Muslims). There are some serious theories also about the good things in being united towards a common enemy (an old socioligist, Simmel, started theorising about it some 100 years ago). It has the same function both with working places as with nations. Stuff like efficency (and thereby economic gain) is much improved with this kind of centralising of groups or collectives. So there can also be this kind of economic interests from the governments side that prolongs, or start, conflicts. I recon this is an important factor in USA:s current warwaging... </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Syrian Troops Enter Isreal; Fire Upon Soldiers<span id='postcolor'> Whooa, you really scared me there for a while, dont seem to be all to serious though, or?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ Jan. 09 2003,03:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 09 2003,03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember this? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 03 2002,19:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli troops have shot dead a 95-year-old woman </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fatima Hasan died from at least one bullet in the back as she sat in a vehicle at a checkpoint outside the city <span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'> The good news is the IDF's Judge Advocate General took action. The bad news is it was only a disciplinary hearing. The good news is the soldier was found guilty of violating rules of engagement. The bad news is he was sentenced to serve only 35 day. The good news is he was also found guilty of lying. The bad news is lying only got him an extra 30 days. The good news is a Civil Rights group protested the verdicts. The bad news is the JAG cancelled the 35-day sentence. The good news is that they are finally launching a criminal investigation and are preserving the possibility of imposing a much more servere sentence. Edit: link to update<span id='postcolor'> I think this shows how cheap the Israelis value Palestinian lifes. Tragic if you ask me <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'> Then one may ofcourse argue that the Palestinians are no better (even though the Palestinans also make official symbolic punishments towards, at least some, Palestinians that have been involved in the killings of Israelians). But the main problem with Israel is that it is considered a 'civilised, free, western nation' and as such are obligated to keep above a certain level of, at least illusive, human rights and justice. But as the international relative consensus about Israel clearly show, Israel is not able to live up to the symbolic standard that an western nation should keep. The only way out is probably to create some great new illusions to give the nation a western shine (the problem is that no illusions hold forever though), or to make all the great sacrifices that an end to the conflict demands. The Palestinians, Chechens and Russians (that conflict only as an example here) are not really considered to be holy western people (yet), why they are given more space - Â and worse violence is tolerated due to a number of, mostly symbolic, reasons - by us world leading westeners.

I would agree with Tex that it does not look too reliable; rather alertness and 'arab-sounding words' test. On the other hand I dont think I have ever agreed on any test system to actually test what is intended to 100%, rather to a maximum of maybe 70% in the best cases I recon.. But I'm not to well into this kind of test - it might be more accurate than it seems too. I got: "Your data suggest a slight automatic preference for Arab Muslims" btw, I stopped to check out the word 'agony' in a english-swedish dictionary.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 06 2003,18<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Learn from people who did it right. It may come as a surprise to you but wars have been decisively won in the past.<span id='postcolor'> At first I was about to mention an other nation who have 'successfully' dealt with a ethnic problem some 50 years ago, but thats rather untasteful and incorrect I recon - since one can not call that a war; but on the other hand the mideast conflict is not a real war either. But what I wanted to say was that you better stop living in the past. The times of expanding borders by military force (no matter how justified) is probably forever gone. Can anyone mention one single nation that have successfuly been able to keep occupied territory, gained by military force, in the 20'th century? I guess there are some case indeed, but among the 'sacred' western nations? My point is, do you really think it is possible for Israel to keep the occupied territories in modern and postmodern times? Or will that kind of stuff, even in the future, only be found in wars that "have been decisively won in the past"? I know that the westbank and Golan heights has strategical importance. And that the conflict, at least the old one - now maybe almost forgotten, cannot be said to only be about the occupied occupied territory (outside the old UN borders), but its non the less a major part in the present conflict. I recon the only way to create an empire in modern times is to follow USA:s model; the 'symbolic influence way' rather than military way. btw, the other day I heard that the 'IDF refuseniks' has been outlawed....

The Borderlands of Pukko This game is probably quite lame and pointless I recon, no wars, no nothing except un ratings.. But I think it could be at least some meaning in it if all 17 (or so) nations mentioned here joined up the malden group, I'm on my way. btw, [TU]$33ker, I spent some time looking at flags, and at once decided that I wanted the Kazakhstan flag, but it was not in the flaglist.. - thanks for reading my thoughts

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Dec. 22 2002,07:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I wish someone would make a WW I flight sim as engaging and enjoyable as the original Red Baron. Â Perhaps on an engine like IL-2! <span id='postcolor'> Check out: http://www.wingswithwires.com/ Join the forum and lead the developers in the right direction! Also Red Baron 3D is quite updated with mods. And there are some other games that feature WW1 sims like (I think it was) Fighter Squadron...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KEVBAZ @ Dec. 21 2002,11:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">side by side<span id='postcolor'> OMG, that picture really made me wet my pants, and then I dont mean the the scary kind of wetting, but the kind of creamy orgasmic wetting.... Â Shit, I really love those old aicrafts... That pic is just too beatiful for a (even if not fanatical) WW1 airwar fan to just pass by **saves it to harddrive** whoooaaaaa, ****grabs the joystick and fires up OFP for a flight****

Ok, now I am officially in love with BIS:s wonderful creative software masters  I have had wet dreams about WW1 planes in OFP ever since the demo was released, and when I passed through the main page on the way in here earlier tonight I could'nt believe my eyes! Been hoping that some modeller would create WW1 planes, and when it finally comes, it an official addon!!!!  I love the graphics and feeling of the flashpoint universe, and now its made complete by some wonderful über scouts  Well, what can one say.... I'll just bow and send everyone at BIS great big kisses   btw, there is an awesome WW1 flightsim in the making called Birds of Prey, you can check out their site at: http://www.wingswithwires.com/

Aaah, just came back from watching The two towers (2:nd Lord of the Ring film), and now I want some more war!!!!! Real war!!!! Come on now, give me some great war pictures from Iraq in my telly (or indeed at the cinema), attack Iraq now!! [depressed sarcasm mode off] Well I used to post in these kind of discussions before (last autumn & winter), but now I just have'nt anything to say.... its all too abstract and speculative to make any real point in these discussions I guess Tries to catch up with your postings here though, but the last days this thread has grown too fast (I followed it till page 30 I think). Great to see your, at least in some cases, good arguments anyway Sorry for spamming, but I just feel too depressed and apathetic about these things at the time to have anything to contribute with. Just wanted to say that I appreciate you all sharing your opinions... (if you wonder about my opinions you may find some of my latest posts here ) And btw, The two Towers is an incredibly mighty an well made movie, with probably some of the best made war scenes ever made. Happy cristmas

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Dec. 09 2002,10:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, our official statistician, maybe you should calculate whether this correlation is significant or not.<span id='postcolor'> Well, if the data vary as much as it has from earlier figures to this graph - its quite unlikely to be be statistically significant, what ever you look at Guess denoir was a little tired last night, but the anarchist axis is quite buggy. Damn, I dont post much here anymore - just these pointless shitty comments at times. Guess that I mostly have discussed US foregin policies here earlier (which has been most interesting), but both I and the forum in general seems to be quite done with it for now - it has just become empty routine to present the usual arguments. Maybe times will change and this forum once again can be a creative way to get rid of rage and sorrow of the kind that I felt during the last autumn and winter.. In the meantime I will continue to visit this forum as often as I can, since it is (or at least was) a great news source

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -3.75 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -6.62 <span id='postcolor'> Hello there all pinko commies

I took these shots back in february on a Robert de Niro theme; one major thing in flashpoint compared to other games is the big and beatiful world - that is best shown by long viewdistance shots, right? http://w1.315.telia.com/~u31505667/Robban.html

I made my 11 months long military service as a JA 37 Viggen aircraft/weapons mechanic at 1:st div. F4 Frösön, squadleader - no more, no less; I have been 'krigsplacerad' (given a specific war position), but have not been called to any 'rep övningar' (repetition exercises). Official F4 (not much): http://www.f4.mil.se/index.php?lang=sve Some pics taken by a guy serving 2 years after me: http://hem.passagen.se/jim76/jim.htm

The reasons to start a war is never, or very seldomly, only due to one single reason. I will here post 3 more or less important, and seldomly discussed, unofficial reasons for the US government wanting to start a war against Iraq. There are indeed more reasons that I cant think of right now (apart from the 'in it self not so important' oil argument, or indeed the 'mass destruction argument' ), but here they are in short: 1. Unification (or centralization) of the American people towards a common enemy. Extremely useful to keep domestic economics/production on top, and to keep the focus away from domestic problems - among many other things.. 2. The Israeli lobby in washington. There is no way that Iraq is a direct threat towards USA with its maximum of a dozen scud missiles (to carry any eventual nukes), each with a range of only 300 kilometers. One info source about the Israeli lobby can be found here 3. To justify the upholding and development/expansion of a great big war machine. The war industry is not a small one, and the Bush administration recently got a even greater defence budget. Of course these, and many other, reasons all interact with each other, and might not really be viewed separately. Its impossible to just point at one single major thing - but the current, as everything else absract, US foregin policy really stinks in many peoples noses... any comments or additions?

Germany - King Tiger Sweden - JA 37 Viggen Norway - F16 USA - Aicraft carriers lol about the hockey stick unjamming, Tovarish BTW, I cant believe that these small (ok, I dont know too much about sub sizes), outdated & secondhand, subs: -costs about Å83m each! Either the total sum (Å 332m) must have included bigger models, and/or alot of service equipment etc was sold with them....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 26 2002,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">about chechnya: it's just too bad that the russians don't try the US policy from after ww2. the allies utterly, totally destroyed german and japanese warmaking capabilities. but then they turned right around and helped those nations with lots of goodwill and money. they proved that allied warmaking, or the hatred war brings on, was not done from the heart. those nations are now (fairly) stable allies.<span id='postcolor'> Im sorry to go more offtopic, but I cant leave this comment out here (and this is not US bashing). *oh wait, when I read your post again I bacam unsure of what you meant by "from the heart"* Anyways this kind of includes also the solution of global terrorism. USA (and the western world in general, but USA is kind of the 'western führer' ) is, for right or wrong, blamed for much internationally. By making up with the rest of the world from the heart (like the pre coldwar USA was good at I recon), the terror threat will be gone in time. Its a process that will take decades, but in differance of war it has creative potential. I hope this was not too offtopic, or a flamebait; so that it wont ruin this thread.. peace Edit: added western world in general ofcourse

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 26 2002,23:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to BBC news many hostages are in a poor condition in hospital due to the gas, the military is refusing to say what type of gas was used so the doctors cannot treat them, how fucked up is that?<span id='postcolor'> In Swedish television they broadcast a short interview with a Moscow doctor who told what you are saying; that the hostages are all in a bad condition. He finished his sentence with: I think they used nervegas....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 17 2002,07:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I fail to see how a bomb exploding in Bali can be blamed on the US. And yet somehow, ONCE AGAIN, we are arguing about the US. This springs from two problems- certain forum members who hold the deep seated belief that EVERYTHING is the US's fault, and, of course, the less-than-well-informed Americans who continually rise to their bait. Pretty mindless, considering this song has been played at least 200 times since February<span id='postcolor'> Regarding US blaming: Some hints of the reasons for me, and maybe others, blaming USA for much of todays global problems: 1. Since 9/11 I have become scared and worried of what will come if this conflict is not dealt with in creative ways. As you know, I am conviced that this is not a conflict that started from just the terrorists side on 9/11 2001. I would never say that 'US foregin actions in the last 50 years' alone really is the entire reason for the terror attacks though either - but USA has anyway internationally recieved a big part of the 'blame-labels'. The sadest thing is that since 9/11 USA has really started to deserve their bad reputation - the 'not so creative' bombing of Afganistan and the most likely coming war on Irak (and then maybe North-Korea - saw the post about their massdestruction weapons), amongst many other symbolic things, do convice big parts of the world that it will be better of without USA. And since I am living in a 'Western nation' (never say never about terror attacks in Sweden), I am scared about the ever increasing chanses of terror-retaliations close to me - at home or when visiting other countries; and ofcourse I find it depressing to just stand by and watch as the world around me falls apart (which an non-creative dealing with the current situation will cause)... 2. Other reasons might be my utter tiredness of US influence in my everyday life (maybe a psyco-analysist would find me just projecting my frustrations at USA , but in that case USA is in serious trouble due to fact that a majority of the worlds population feels, at least partly, like that). I mean how the virtual US global emipre affects me - the huge US global influence on: - Economics - Media - Culture    |    |    V  ...as in stuff that really makes you rule the world.. 3. One more thing that is important to mention, is that I can not remeber the last time I heard something positive about USA on the Swedish news. As late as half a year ago it was clearly visible that they wanted to sahre some light over the blamed USA - but not anymore.... Now they can spend minutes just reading lists of all UN conventions that USA have not ratified (a sole but symbolic thing) and ordinary kind of - 'today USA made further efforts to get their little war on Irak' reports... We live in a time when this conflict takes up a great, or at least some, part of everyones conciousness, and the USA- for good or bad - happens to be the main actor there..........

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Oct. 14 2002,08:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, actually the blame of this bombing has fallen upon the Jihad Islamia or JI terrorist faction, and not on Al Qaeda as some of you seem to think judging by your posts. Another point of note which I feel alot of you have missed, is that the terrorists are attacking places such as the WTC, and now Bali to make people go "Oh gosh, they've attacked us because of our governments involvement... lets get them to step back" They EXPECT people to have that sort of idiotic reaction, they thrive off responses like that. Its the basis of terrorism. Inspire fear in people and they BACK OFF. Give in to them once, and the next time they want something.. they'll resort to an attack again. Getting involved to stop ALL terrorist groups now (Including the IRA and PLA and non-islamic groups) is the only way to ensure that there are no continued attacks. I can't believe the majority of you can't see that.<span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Frizbee is right. And what amazes me is the automatic assumption that  US foreign policies are the cause now for all terrorist activity.  Another excuse to blame America first. As soon as we give into the terrorist, from whatever country they come from, they will have won. I'm glad to see some people like Frisbee that can actually see we must do all we can to stop these murderers. <span id='postcolor'> To keep this short (have repeated this kind of things far to many times): 1. If you would ever be able to eliminate all organisations that can be called terror cells (in the long run most certainly every street gang, or any even vaugly violent criminals, would be called terrorists too) that are around in the world today, you would at the end have multiplied the development of new organisations by many times. Maybe you get 10 new terror organisations for each you eliminate - at least if you eliminate them by, covardly, deliberatly risks (and do take millions) civlian lives by bombing entire nations. All, and I'm sure the only thing, that one can do is to try being creative about it - bombs are not very creative - by removing their reason for using terror. The relation between cristians and Muslims have always been infected; but historically the cristians are the real bad guys. The last 50 years the muslims have been forced to eat much shit that can be blamed on primary USA. Either we make it up with them (not easy, but can be done if we swallow our bloody pride), not at all only on our own short time economic conditions, or we learn to live with them throwing back shit at everyone they think deserves it. 2. If you just meet these terror organisations with violence, you will soon have a global version of the Israel/Palestine conflict (not by far only involving muslims/cristians). We have to be creative now or the next chance may be 200 years away..... 3. Another thing one can say that the ones behind 9/11 wanted is exactly what happened - the western world, lead by USA, confirmes how bad they are by staring a war on terror (in a conflict that definitely did not start at 9/11 2001); and give real concrete reasons for 100:s of new terror organisations to start up.

This thread made me remember something I have'nt thought about for a long time. It feels strange that I have'nt noticed it in grater extent now... My oldest brother was a fuel driver (carried fuel on a trailer after a tractor) in the Swedish infatry, Sollefteĺ, during his military service. He had a friend there who served as an motorcycle ordonance (messenger - I think he used an offroad Husquarna or something). As I remeber it they were good friends and my brother got to ride some wild trips with him. But during a 'lights out' night exercise this guy came at, well enough speed, and drove right into a cannon at the back of a column; he got the cannon tube in his stomache and later died from the injuries. I'm quite sure he died from it, hell I'm really surprised over my bad memory in this case anyway - I was probably 13 years at the time (28 now) and understood it from a 'not capable to understand anything serious - little brother' perspective. I really have to find this out... real scary that I'm not sure about such an important thing in my brothers life....

Quest For the Holy Grail. Maybe the best movier ever, all categories Btw. theres a great looking special edition DVD out (2 or 3 discs) now.