IsthatyouJohnWayne

Im confused, hasnt he heard (and hasnt Acecombat heard?) Isnt Pakistan a muslim country? I seem to remember a little hoohah a while back about possible nuclear war between India and Pakistan. Britain is officially a Christian country and im sure nukes arent very Christian devices either (love your neighbour, love your enemy?) but it doesnt seem to have stopped us from possessing them. People are very good at using the 'but we are/this is different' argument.

Agreed, but its easier for us to be relaxed in Europe about teaching religion in schools because most of us are god forsaken agnostics or atheists anyway , whereas in the the US there are still plenty of fanatical believers. By 'religious teaching' in Europe, i think what is mostly meant is (unless im mistaken) fact based (non judgemental) information about different religions around the world (not espousing any one view), and thats what i got in 'RE' class. As i went to a 'church school' as a kid i do vaguely remember when i was young also getting occasional (non curricular) Christian lectures from some bible basher (he actually once hit a kid on the head with a bible, fine Christian!) as well as dull and interminable Hymn singing, which none of the kids took seriously. I think the broad, fact based and non judgemental type of curricular religious education i described first is definitely a good idea and would advocate its use in all countries (im actually kind of surprised there isnt something similar in the US- assuming thats the case). Religious indoctrination on the other hand i objected to then, object to now and would discourage general use of in national education in any country. Whilst some might have difficulty seeing or drawing the line between them i think these two different forms of 'religious education' could certainly play a part in the success of this so called 'War on Terror'.

I heard the news but i think ill wait and see rather than prophesying doom. As long as theres a niche theres usually someone willing to fill it. So to speak. As for RTW mods im holding out for Europa Barbarorum which describes itself as a total conversion. Its looking pretty professional and seems perfect for those suckers for realism who want something a bit in depth (like me). All new units (none identical with the original), Real 'ancient language' voices ,with subtitles, map extended to the borders of India and Ethiopia, new siege engines, etc (Ancient Bactria -Just what i wanted), more realism, more skins, more provinces. Only problem is it hasnt been released yet. These people take 'realism' and 'historical accuracy' to crazy lengths (there will be an optional patch for certain 'historically accurate' naked barbarians even). I like the look of it. Not the naked barbarians.

'Verbal and written instructions about what he wanted done' with his body etc do not necessarily constitute a suicide note. He might have written it down weeks or months ago. The news itself sucks obviously (even if he was past his best, seems like a waste- but then hell, ive promised myself ill become a heroine addict if i live to eighty). I read an article about him quite recently, before which i had kind of forgotten he was still alive.

nSe7eN- Whilst i too disagree with the thrust of USSRsnipers post i dont think the moscow theatre siege is particularly funny (117 or so civilians that died?). It seems a bit tasteless but perhaps its merely your meaning not coming across through the internet so i wont elaborate.

Look Denoir, someones listening to you! I Support The Occupation Of Iraq, But I Don't Support Our Troops LOL, well almost. Akira- I think that was roughly the point quicKsanD was making, that it (the incident) is useless for drawing general conclusions from. However i found it somewhat interesting nonetheless and no doubt of enough relevance to post here. Individual stories certainly have a place in the scope of finding out what is going on in Iraq (especially in the forum of a war game i would think), even if they are not as reliable as general statistical trends for drawing opinions on what the hell is going on there. Chill- I dont think Washington wants that to happen at all (youde likely be noticing it if Bush wanted it to happen). Russia imploding would be a potential nightmare for the west and crucially it would impede business (not to mention global stability, weapons control etc). Whilst i would like to argue with much of the rest of your post, Akira may be right that this is not the right thread for it.

Well the sensible answer is to nuke it doublequick thus killing two birds with one inter planetary ballistic missile. Firstly, nuking the polar caps and this frozen ocean would possibly lead to the 'terraforming' of mars as seen in 'Total Recall', the documentary featuring governor Arnold Schwarznegger of California. Secondly, it would be be likely to neutralise any harmful lifeforms, such as dolphins lurking in the frozen depths, theyde be frozen, but better nuked than sorry, especially nowadays. An additional bonus is that nuking Mars with some excess warheads decreases the WMD threat here on earth. Plus big explosions look totally cool.

Akira- Looks more like a nature documentary on the social habits of Nasa employees 'And here we see a herd of scientists milling around in their natural enviroment, some communicate their presence in a low chatter, some rub their hands perhaps in preparation for data analysis, the more gregarious creatures seem to gesticulate in meaningful ways towards inanimate objects as well as other creatures, some sit huddled before monitors, seeming to draw some comfort from the dim illumination provided' I voted that it would go well, though every time i look at images of the probe if somehow appears horribly fragile... edit.. Excellent!

///hehehehe If you hit Denoir from across the atlantic the drinks are on me.

Thats the spirit. From an old article on good news from Iraq: Is Media Bias Filtering Out Good News from Iraq? The Salvador Option(MSNBC)- Civil war anyone? Whilst special forces assassination and snatch squads might possibly be one of the more effective and well targeted means of forcefully fighting terrorists and/or insurgents, somehow Central American style paramilities seem unlikely to be harbingers of imminent peace in Iraq. El Salvador as a model? Scene in the eighties of a brutal civil war with US backing, right wing ARENA deathsquads etc If ethnically exclusive paramilitary hit squads are the answer, i wonder as to the question. I can only hope this 'idea' doesnt take off in the same way as other myopic initiatives have in the past such as, oh, supplying weapons and funding only to the most extreme and zealous Mujahideen in Afghanistan. Tex [uSMC]- Hehehe.

It depends where you mean but there are tensions and rebel/government conflicts in many of the regions hit (Sri Lanka and Indonesia for instance, although in Sri Lanka it seems like the disaster might possibly bring the sides together) so it may be SOP to take their weapons everywhere with them in these regions. It seems a bit much, but cant blame them for being careful i suppose (if it was foreign troops it would be another story).

All very good and praiseworthy in principle but what surely matters is what actually gets delivered and the effects on the ground. As i recall, plenty of countries made 'pledges' for funding to Afghanistan much of which has now fizzled out. If in a few years time this is forgotten and perhaps there are diverting disasters it is doubtful if all the money 'pledged' will actually arrive. But still, this show of international generosity must be a good thing (even if mostly due to media therefore public attention).

Fmerry Smucking Christmas everybody. Not a very original sentiment. But when youve had 2 brands of white wine ,4 brands of red wine, champaign, port, babysham, sherry, stella, carslburg, Grolsch..ugh god knows, you dont much care. I think i may have a hangover coming. Well have a good time everyone, and dont commit suicide- Santa Claus doesnt like it.

brgnorway- I dont agree. Medics should not be targets within their capacity as medics, civilian and otherwise unarmed workers and contractors (and even soldiers) should not be targeted. In my opinion it is immoral to kill such people with knowledge of their state, and if the law makes it legal then the law is an ass, besides which as far as i am aware it does not. If it is 'legitimate' to kill anyone giving help or aid to the enemy then this would legitimise coalition slaughter of Iraqis suspected of sypathising with insurgents (probably a large proportion of the population in many places) which seems unsupportable i think most would agree. The UNs laws and 'international standards' are widely flouted throughout the world by UN member states and there is massive abuse in many states, yet no action is taken. So when you say: it seems somewhat to be missing the point. For Iraqis the UN doesnt have any integrity anyway. As far as i can tell most Iraqis dislike the UN at least as much as the US. And the opinion of many in the US on that institution is well known. In other words neither Iraqis or Americans have a natural respect for the UN (and this is perfectly understandable if you look at their respective histories) and so the only practical reason for a UN resolution would be to make europeans and a few others feel morally justified in going into Iraq and otherwise assisting. But seeing as noone significant seems very intent on doing that anyway, the whole practical purpose for a UN involvement seems to evaporate. Possibly the only thing that -could- improve the perceived integrity of the UN for Iraqis is peaceful intervention.Plenty of conflicts on the part of supposed enforcers of order have taken place without official UN sanction, but the UN still tends to assist when and if it can. Whats different is that the US has militarily toppled a regime and obviously other governments dont like that. But so what. Being apathetic to instability in Iraq in order to 'punish' or pin down the US should be nothing to do with the UN. If there is a future invasion proposed by TBA (or any other government) it should be debated on and fought via other means than pointing to the disgusting oozing wound that we would let Iraq become. Denoir- Very good. But to make your analogy more realistic we should add that noone in government can agree on what the laws should be and the police headquarters is a corrupt bureaucratic nightmare that most often does not respond when you ring. In this country i would carry a pointy stick at all times.

Nyet, The Guardian is a serious minded left leaning 'progressive' broadsheet but it sometimes has forays into provocative campaigns and stories. The Sun is the most popular tabloid with a diet of sport, topless women, celebrity gossip and the occassional news snippet. As for the story, who knows. Ill judge it if/when it appears. Theres always the chance film projects can fall though which is probably why Univeral havent announced it yet.

Denoir- Hmm? Surely controlling information such as illegalising foreign media interference is a relatively small violation of human rights in the widest possible perspective though in your opinion it is vital to guard against, yet people being deprived by the government of their right to vote in a meaningful way and so influence their governance (the effect of vote rigging) is ok and not even worthy of EU criticism? Denoir- Of course not. There is no question about it that Turkey will have to deal with the Cyprus question to EU's satisfaction before joining. Personally, I think it was a big, big mistake to take in Cyprus, without having solved the problems with Turkey. It was a clear violation of the Copenhagen criterias (one of which dictates that no EU candidate country may have any border disputes). I agree that its created a messy situation but if Greece and Turkey are in agreement then Cyprus could be made to feel quite unwelcome in the EU if its starts throwing its 'weight' around so early in a way that appears unreasonable. The disputes can be resolved so long as everyone sees it is in their mutual interest to do so. If border disputes included airspace limits then it seems these criteria would excluded Greece also. From one of the links Ex-RoNiN posted- What are Greece actually doing conducting bombing runs between Lesbos and Limnos (quite obviously near a sensitive area) anyway? Youde think there were enough other parts of the mediterranean for weapons practice if they are looking to diffuse tensions. In 15-20 years Turkey has every chance (if seized) of meeting EU requirements and i wish them luck. The logistical or infrastructural problem as i see it is overwhelmingly the east of the country. The Turkey that borders Iraq and Iran is a world away from the cosmopolitan atmospere (and prosperity) of Istanbul. If Turkey could be divided into an Occidental and Oriental segment then the western segment could potentially join relatively easily by the end of the decade at most. But the east is way behind, it could do with massive infrastructural investment and it remains to be seen how long it will be before the new laws are actually followed and enforced on a daily basis. So the east is behind the west economically and infrastructurally and is culturally less european, but really so what, lots of EU countries have more backward or economically underdeveloped regions its only a question of degrees. Culturally Id have to say eastern Turkey is more a 'european influenced' part of the middle east than strictly 'european' (and russian influenced in the north east) but then these things are nebulous and always hard to judge exactly (the almost total lack of nightclubs or bars in much of the south east of Turkey is a telling sign though). The potential of Kurdish/Turkish violence is more troubling, but is surely less likely with a stable Turkey in or moving towards the EU. If the Turkish military restrains itself if there is a new upsurge in PKK/Kongra Gel violence then that will be a good indicator of change (and hopefully there will be no such upsurge). Overall i think the world would be a better place with Turkey in the EU.

Grizzlie- What he said. I think. I dont see what is to be gained anyway by seeking to justify the possible infringements of liberty of Kuchmas regime by arguing whether rigged elections are 'genuine' but seems pretty clear to me. Electoral fraud is a violation of the spirit of the UN declaration of human rights even if lawyers could argue about the letter.I have no sympathy for moral ambivalence or wilful passivity in the face of violations of human rights. You appear to agree: so your belief that any interference in this case is wrong seems incongruous with your acceptance of internationally agreed standards such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.Unless you maintain that government assisted electoral fraud is not a violation of human rights or reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

billybob2002- Ok im going to be a bit of a devils advocate and say 'so what?' Is a slow down in the rate of growth in the US economy really so unthinkable? As long as under no circumstances slow down becomes recession i see no cardinal sin in a, very likely temporary, slowdown. As it is all youre doing is burning the available energy at a still faster rate. Theres going to have to be a reorganisation of the energy situation anyway at some point so its just a question of time. The status quo is untenable in the long term (and seems to me increasingly unwise). But i claim no expertise in this area and id welcome any arguments to the contrary.

Me- denoir- Well i think we'll have to disagree on that. The EU has every right to reject the election results if they think there is sufficient evidence of cheating. Rejecting election results itself is certainly not a return to colonialism. the Ukrainians dont have to take notice of the EUs rejection but if they want any chance of future EU accession talks (as some do) then they should. Its probably more the business of the EU than the US elections, either this years or the previous dodgy  one. If we (in the EU) believe that governments deliberately falsifying results in an election and cheating is wrong then we should say so and speak out. But maybe you think governments cheating their citizens of the right to vote (which is essentially what electoral fraud amounts to in nullifying legitimate votes) is ok? From where im sitting that does appear a human rights abuse in an allegedly democratic country. E.g. From the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which as you have previously stated, no state originally had the guts not to sign. Looks like a violation to me. If it were the Israeli government depriving a certain ethnic/religious or political group of their votes i cant help thinking you would immediatly jump on the bandwagon of condemnation. But Ukraine is somehow different it would appear. 'Friendly words' to Russia in this case would achieve zilch except distance them. They see it as their right to interfere in Ukraine with its partially Russian speaking population and Moscow inclined post soviet legacy, plus Putin is becoming increasingly autocratic himself. I think in such cases as this 'imperialism' would have to be defined. I will say though im not totally against the idea of non violent democratic imperialism but even if i was, letting democracy and the rule of law crumble or erode on the outskirts of the EU without protest or opposition is a bad way to proceed and would set a bad precedent. As for Yushchenko's face, even if he was poisoned by the government, im sure its nothing a friendly word from the EU wouldnt fix. bn880- Yes youre right, just like the middle ages. How dare people protest at election fixing or human rights abuses.No more protests, there are authoritarian regimes to reinforce people! Noone even mentioned the allegations surrounding the first Bush administration as i recall hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. (was i too subtle?) bn880- Yes precisely right. 'Minute cheating' to tip a close election does indeed turn a government from from good to bad, or 'evil', as far as im concerned. Intimidation of voters, government giving their supporters multiple voting slips and turning the dead into voters. Are these 'evil' (morally wrong) acts? Should they be opposed (at least verbally) even in other countries? Absolutely yes.

Captivity, internment, detention, bondage, confinement, custody, durance, limbo possibly (some relevant selections from dictionary.com). Good luck with your MP campaign .

Duke_of_Ray- Good luck with that.

Now now, lets move with the times. The poster isnt so much WW2 as post partition Korea. Great Leader, Dear Leader Incidentally ifound this quote from Kim Jong-il in his bbc profile "I know I'm an object of criticism in the world, but if I am being talked about, I must be doing the right things" -Kim Jong-il Somehow seems familiar. BTW i disagree that letting the US exercise its regime change routines in the EUs backyard is a good idea in the long run. If our interests were identical (only differing in methods) it may well be for the best but its obvious that in certain areas our ideas diverge and US appear to be developing a clear advantage over the EU in election tipping techniques (one might imagine that next time if successful they will call on Ukrainians to assist them).

Well it strikes me that the EU should have such measures and techniques for intervention, or else prohibit and condemn them. Standing by, apparently letting (or allowing) the US do the work of waging the propaganda war against anti democratic forces in the far flung corners of europe smacks of lazy complacence. The EU is (or should be) responsible for cleaning up europe and ensuring the survival of democracy in potential future member states not the US. [edit- i dont wish to become a total pimp for the guardian online but ive just read this article that pretty much supports what ive just written Freedom's front line edit]

bn880- Whilst i think there almost certainly is something behind the allegations of cheating (cant really say for sure who poisoned Yushchenko) There was an interesting analysis in todays Guardian about US involvement in this electoral furore and an apparent policy of such intervention in elections with somewhat authoritarian governments: Something to bear in mind at the very least.

bbc-Ukraine cities defy poll result bbc-Ukraine's east-west showdown Seeing as the choice is between a leader who favours closer links with Russia, making Russia the second official language, possible future union etc and one who favours closer links with the west, and possible future EU membership, it might be worth watching here.