Bernadotte

I'll be very surprised if you ever believe how much I want you to stay exactly the way you are. Â Â (...or if you even understand that last sentence. Â Â )

As soon as Oman's literacy rate or Jordan's school book extremists are featured in the top 10 news stories each and every day across several decades then perhaps we can start a thread about them too. Â I've posted in all 4 Iraqi threads whenever I've had something to say about that crisis. Â (Don't miss the war predictions I made just a few days into the conflict.) I disagree. Â I do not expect that Nemesis6 will ever enter the realm of what we call legitimate discussion - and that's fine with me. Â You see, I think it's not only important that people are exposed to the views of the extreme right-wing, but also their means of expressing those views. Â Many people will not have the resources to distinguish fact from right-wing propaganda. Â I'm hoping that those people will instead decide on the basis of the weak discussion methods employed by the propagandist. Â The last thing I would want to do is help a propagandist sound less like a propagandist.

Listen, you are not an anti-extremist. What makes you think that I'm the least bit interested in an opinion about extremism coming from you? Which one of us is not to the left of your position? Â Ariel Sharon was to the left of where you stand. No, Sri Lanka. Â Please check the thread title. Â Really? Â I would call them necrophiles. Â

Holding the view "that Lebanese civilians are more valuable than Israeli" does not reflect intelligence. Â That is my opinion. Â Obviously, you are entitled to believe that valuing Lebanese lives more than Israeli lives is an intelligent thing to say. Â I happen to disagree. I'll ask again... Â Which category are you in? It was NOT a question. Â Let me help you: This is a statement, NOT a question. Â If you indeed know that people will start whining as you've described then please tell us who you think they are. Â On the other hand, if you DON'T actually know who such people are and wish to find out then please ask us with a question. Â In English we distinguish a question from a statement by putting a question mark [?] at the end of the sentence. My stance is anti-extremist, not anti-Israel. Â I share the views of many Israelis both within Israel and abroad who believe that pursuing a just resolution of the conflict with the Palestinians and with Israel's neighbours is in Israel's best longterm interests. Yes, but in accordance with the treaties it has signed such as the various Geneva Conventions governing war and the obligations of an occupying power.

Thankfully, most of us here are intelligent enough not to hold such views. What does intelligence have to do with holding a certain view? That's like saying that anybody who doesn't agree with your view is unintelligent. Oh really? Â Please look again. Â I associated intelligence with not holding the view you described above. And which category do you find yourself in? Â I'm in neither. Really? Â Which of us feels that Israeli civilians deserve to be killed? That's pretty much what I'm asking all of you to tell me. No, that's what you are telling us, not asking us. Â So, please go ahead and at least have the balls to identify the people you were referring to above. And who else, besides yourself, feels that "poor helpless Lebanese" deserve to be killed? Who said I think they deserve to be killed? Obviously, you did, unless you were mockingly referring to yourself as one of the people who will start whining and make up excuses why the poor helpless Lebanese don't deserve to be killed.

Thankfully, most of us here are intelligent enough not to hold such views. Really? Which of us feels that Israeli civilians deserve to be killed? And who else, besides yourself, feels that "poor helpless Lebanese" deserve to be killed?

Nemesis always makes me laugh ! really ! Â

Before: After: No manipulation but just fact. Do I detect some progress? Jewish Americans are definitely the victims of hate crimes more often than Muslim Americans, and it's not just because they outnumber Muslims by around 2 to 1. Â However, I do not believe it is mostly due to their religion. If Israel was a Mormon state killing thousands of Palestinians under brutal occupation and now bombing Lebanon to dust then I believe American Mormons would be attacked much more often. Â And most of those attackers probably wouldn't have a clue what the Mormon faith was about. It's much more political than religious. Â ...Unless you believe that being an atheist could actually save an American Jew from a hate crime.

I hope Mel Gibson reads this: Important part of the landscape?? Â Given that American evangelicals out number American Jews by about 6 to 1, they have become the landscape. Â ...Not to mention that a much larger percentage of Evangelicals than Jews blindly support Israel.

What government's military will ever admit to the "deliberate mass killing" of civilians? Â And when such incidents do occur they will certainly get covered up like at Haditha. Â By the way, do you consider the killing of those 24 Arabs in Haditha a massacre? Nonetheless, I will forgive the Palestinians who may have used the same dictionary definition for "massacre" that I use, which says the killings must be indiscriminate, but not necessarily deliberate. Â And I certainly won't regard it as a significant attempt at media manipulation as you have chosen to do. I think he isn't a semite because he is Pakistani. Then why do you think American media downplayed that he is Muslim?

You apparently believe that the IDF can execute on sight any Palestinian in the West Bank who picks up a weapon even if they do so in defense in Area A where the Palestinians were given full military control. Â I disagree. You apparently believe that only unarmed people can be massacred. Â I disagree. Â You apparently believe that a massacre is not possible without a lop-sided score, like at some sporting event. Â I disagree. I didn't ask the UN how many Arabs must be killed to constitute a massacre. Â I asked you. Â And since you've not denied that the Haifa restaurant and Munich Olympics killing were massacres, where fewer unarmed innocent civilians died than in Jenin (using your reference), then you clearly need to see more Arabs die than Jews before calling it a massacre. Racism? Â Obviously. It goes with my argument that Arabs try to manipulate too. If it wasn't for the "right-wingers" who exposed the doctored picture (just like the leftists with exposing Israeli manipulation), the picture would had been a successful manipulation by Arabs. They are not organized as the Israeli but it is there. Are you saying it's ok then? Â Those examples of Israeli media manipulation given in the video are acceptable to you because some Arab photographer added a few more clouds of smoke to what was already there? Â ...Awesome double standard. I like how you use the race card at the end! Anyway, I admit I seriously missed up on that one. Actually, it was one day that it took them revise the number. Just forget about that one. Oh, don't try to use the race card again on me. Mistakes happen. Â But when was the last time you "seriously messed up" in favour of Arabs? Â Hardly no new reporting in the national news and the fact some papers wouldn't mention that he said "I am a Muslim American, angry at Israel/" They might mention he was "angry at Israel" but don't mention the other part. He was a shooter who happened to be a Muslim and that is all. Look at the reporting by the Washington Post for example of downplaying the shooting has just a guy shooting Jews. I got the full story over here in Central Europe. Â Why do you suppose the American media hid the fact that Naveed Haq was as much a Semite as his victims, hmm? Â How do you expect me to show that you are lying again if you don't include a reference link? Â

Not really. Not really? A third of your country's water comes from the Sea of Galilee, which is fed by the Jordan River, which is fed by the Hasbani River in Lebanon (plus 2 springs in the Golan Heights). Keep trying!! Â

Lebanon should rebuild all those power plants along its eastern rivers which are a major source of freshwater for Israel. Perhaps that will protect them from future attacks.

Who am I? Â Jesus? Â When I said "you" I referred to the Israeli people, not necessarily you specifically. Â So, does that mean you personally do not regard any of those killings to be a massacre? Â Even the link to the Munich Olympics killing of 11 Israelis contains the word "massacre".

The two images actually have very little overlap; were shot from different angles; and probably at different times. The one on the right may have been retouched, but who cares; it's not much worse than the original.

Yes but they still tried to call it a "Massacare". How many Arabs have to die for you to call it a massacre? Didn't you call the killing of 30 Israelis at a Netanya restaurant in 2002 a massacre? Didn't you call the killing of 21 Israelis in Maxim's Restaurant in Haifa in 2003 a massacre? Didn't you call the killing of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics a massacre? Then why is it that the killing of 52 Arabs in Jenin was not a massacre? Racism, anyone?

Did you watch the video?  This is not about what the different sides try to do.  This is about what the pro-Israeli side succeeds at doing; what the US media allows them to do; and what the rest of the world's media does not.  Sure you can argue that Arab media allows the Palestinian propagandists lots of freedom, but Arab tax dollars did not buy the bombs and missiles that killed nearly 1000 Lebanese civilians this past month. Please prove that the scattered residents of the Jenin camp had anyway of knowing the real numbers in advance of being allowed back in by the Israeli army.  The Red Cross wasn't even allowed in.  All they knew was that many people were unaccounted for and, given what happened when the IDF sealed off the Sabra/Shatila camp, they assumed the worst.  Nobody tried to hide the real numbers when they became available. Again, what does that have to do with successful media manipulation? Again, where's your evidence that they knew, but suppressed the actual number of casualties.  They had to excavate that cellar with their bare hands.  It took them days.  And when they finished, the real deathtoll came out. What were the initial deathtoll estimates for the WTC attacks?  Twenty thousand, then ten thousand, then five and finally under three thousand.  Have you accused the US authorities of trying to make the deathtoll greater than it actually was?  Of course not.  This is an accusation you reserve for Arabs, I guess. Successfully having US media refer to the settlement of Gilo as a Jerusalem neighbourhood instead of a settlement goes far beyond getting a point across.  Another example:  In August 2003, when two Israelis were killed by two Palestinians, CBS, NBC and the LA Times each reported that the “summer truce†had been “shattered†after “a month of relative quietâ€.  During this “relative quiet,†17 Palestinians were killed and 59 injured by the IDF, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society. (But of course, you know this already if you watched the video.) Please show me your evidence that it was downplayed.

Bigotry, anyone? Â Why don't you try responding to his opinions rather than his race? The video is not a debate about the conflict. Â It is an examination of the manipulation of American media in favour of Israel. Â And if you are not convinced just visit the Habara homepage: Hasbara openly admits doing what the video claims. Â

A very good documentary, deanosbeano. Â Thanks for posting. Â It is exactly sources of information like this that I've come to rely on heavily over the years. Â Btw, around half of the contributors are Jewish and many are Israeli, so it's not merely some anti-Israel propaganda rant. Â The producer is an American media watchdog organisation called the Media Education Foundation. "'Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land' is a bare knuckled examination of how media coverage in America is most definitely distorted and unequivocally used as a form of propaganda for Israeli interests." -- Jewish Toronto News

Two things... And perhaps... Farmworker 1: Â Has anyone seen the boss? Â Farmworker 2: Â Yes, he's standing over there about 500 meters away. Farmworker 1: Â Really? Â I wonder what he's doing way over there. [bOOM!!] It's tragic, but they really couldn't be taking a more obvious risk than by loading open trucks in the Bekaa valley near the Syrian border. Â Of all the recent war accidents, I actually find this one among the least troubling. Go back 24 years to when Israel stopped it's advance on Beirut. Â There were 2 main reasons: Â (1) Sabra/Shatila massacre and (2) high rate of IDF casualties. Â Without a civil war there's little chance of another Sabra/Shatila. Â So the main concern is IDF casualties, which they are trying to minimise by using more air strikes. Politically, it's much much easier for the Israeli PM to face an angry UN than a grieving Israeli mother.

You're beta-testing VISTA's new speech recognition software, aren't you? Â

I agree and I've also tried to encourage the tenacity of Nemesis6: Unfortunately, he was not quite convinced of my sincerety: Let's be honest, Nemesis6!! Â We're both here for the same reason - that is, to get away from all those other boring discussion sites where everyone already agrees with our respective opinions.

Sorry Nemesis6, I didn't mean to frighten you. Â Please don't commit any ceremonial suicides, ok. Â I'm not really as dangerous as you may wish to believe. Btw, does anyone remember the following scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian: I guess Monty Python must have some "deeper grudge" too. Â Prove it!! As you can see from my response I actually said his joke was racist. Â And please don't forget that the mods gave you a few days off for flame-baiting. Â I suppose they must have some "deeper grudge" against you too, huh? Â Keep trying.

It probably doesn't help either that the IDF uses the site of Masada for swearing-in ceremonies. Masada is an ancient fortress where 1000 Jews held out against the Romans until 73 AD when they all committed suicide rather than face capture. Â Why did they kill themselves (actually each other because Judaism forbids suicide)? Â When the Romans held Masada a few years earlier, the Jews had persuaded them to disarm and then proceeded to slaughter them all after they had agreed to surrender. Â So, the Jews had no reason to expect any mercy. What other military in the world glorifies an ancient mass suicide precipitated by a notorious act of dishonour? Â

Who said anything about moral equivalence? There is nothing morally similar between an armed Lebanese civilian in Lebanon and an armed Israeli civilian in a part of the West Bank that is supposed to be under full Palestinian military control. ... why u say i'm a hypocrit ? Sorry, you're quite right. Â I apologise. Â Your comments aren't actually hypocritical if you are an anti-Arab racist. Â