ericz

Python3, you sound like a young man who would like to see peace in the region with the Palestinians getting an opportunity for a normal life and I commend you for it. But there is a big difference between you and me. I dont think your going to do what you have told me I should do, namely, live a day in the life a of a Palestinian in the occupied areas. I on the other have lived for much more than a few days in areas which rival the occupied territories or are worse than them. I have seen what people in extreme circumstances can do. Your post as well as my own point to the problem I mentioned which is that both sides are too entrenched to make a move. As to Palestinian civilian casualties, you are just arm chair quarterbacking, as you said you have "no clue". Your not there and you dont know. Whats obvious to someone who's never seen or experienced conflict except in the movies, newspapers or on TV does NOT reflect the reality of what goes on in the hot spot. BTW, there is nothing nice about a combat patrol... everything else you said, I can respect as your opinion, but on this point, have a little more respect and don't describe something like that without firsthand knowledge, it just discredits you and your arguments.

Apollo, when I said you were essentially right. I meant exactly that. Essentially diplomacy will be the only way to solve this problem outside of complete annihilation by one over the other IMHO. I differ from you on the substance of the diplomacy. If the diplomacy is not backed by visible actions i.e. withdrawal of IDF troops, abandoning settler camps, stopping attacks on Israelis, they can talk till their blue in the face and not an effing thing will change. If Arafat cannot control the terrorist groups then there will be no deal, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. If you give in to the demands of your enemy based on the threat of terrorism youve just accepted that black mailing you is a way to get results. If Arafat does not have complete control of the situation, then who does? Who ever does needs to step up and become part of the solution and not the problem. Your not going to convince anybody to stop restricting you and making your life hard by blowing up their kids, wives or family members. On the other hand, IDF actions that reduce people to poverty and despair only serves as recruitment boosters for terrorists as was said in another post. As I said before there are probably a host of other factors that complicate this scenario. Internal conflicts between the PLO as well as in the Israeli government by hardliners on both sides, power struggles between the various Palestinian groups, history of broken attempts at diplomacy, relgious fundamentalism and hatred on both sides, all serve as obstacles to a peace accord. Talking without simultaneous action at this point is just HOT AIR. If this problem can be solved, It will renew my faith in humanity.

"War is hell" is truly a cliche although it happens to be a good description.  If you think that war can be conducted in such a precise manner that would exclude the death of non-combatants, your smoking dope or you are truly ignorant of history or military affairs for that matter.  I would like to know which one of you, either Apollo or Crazy Sheep of Python3 has ever been in combat?  If you haven't experienced it, then don't sit there on a high horse and pass valueless judgements on those that do?  I certainly dont advocate the killing of innocents wether they are Palestinian, Israeli, Iraqi, American etc.  But having said that I know that it happens and why it happens. Soldiers die in training scenarios and field excercises by accident or friendly fire incidents all the time.  In the time that I've been in the military, I've witnessed two deaths and heard of three in my regiment alone.  The point is that no matter are best efforts war is by its very nature  a dangerouse endeavour where killing people is the main function.  PEOPLE WILL DIE! Couple that with the human instinct for survival and the protection of your battle buddies which rides above all else in the final anaylsis. But if you don't believe, join the Army and opt for the Infantry if you can hack it.  Then maybe you'll end up on my  team or that of one my buddies and I'll make sure you get to be #1 or #2 man in the stack when we go clear a room or house.  Is that piss running down the FNG's boots?  The major difference between the Palestinian "terrorist" groups and the IDF is that the terrorists consider civilian targets as legitimate and the IDF does not.  The terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective.  The IDF does not.  When civilian casualties occur from IDF operations they are not planned.  While the bottom line is the same meaning, civilians die, the moral upperhand is held by the IDF.

I live on the West Coast, maybe we just have a lot more whiners

What would you do if lets say canada one day decided to go and occupy the US. After half a century of occupation, would you want to wait any longer for the peace process. LOL, Try to use a better example, as THAT could NEVER happen! python3, you make a good case for showing the deplorable effects that this conflict has had on the average Palentinian man or woman.  And yes you are correct that some of the Israeli commanders have probably used more force than neccessary when combating the terrorists in Palestine.  However, your argument sinks when you call the Israeli Army as a whole a "terrorist entity".  What you fail to understand as do many of our own "enlightened" liberals is that war in any form is violent, destructive and sometime does not discriminate between combatants and civilians; and that is in a conflict between regulars forces.  In the Palestinian and Israeli conflict, you have irregular forces locked in combat with conventional military.  This is guerrila warfare that in and of itself is should not be considered terrorist.  Where it crosses the line is when these guerrila forces attack civilian targets, then they become terrorists.  A school bus full of civilians is NOT a legitimate target.  On the other hand, these same groups like Hamas etc, utilize civilian buildings to plot, plan as well store weapons and supplies, without regard for the safety of their neighbors.  So when  the IDF comes for them, inevitably innocent or not so innocent (if they knew they were there) get killed and maimed. If you think that the military and police forces of any country operate or are trained the same way, you are sadly mistaken and probably have never been in the military.  Militaries are historically very poor policemen even those such as MPs are trained differently than  civilian police. As to even civilian police forces using excessive force it happens in the U.S. on a daily basis.  For an extreme example you have only to look at the case in Waco, Tx.  What probably made this even more disastrous was the fact that the military was involved in "consulting" the  police forces operating there. I also don't think that ALL Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel, but some do.  You have only to listen to some of the speeches given by even Arafat back in the day. To Apollo's call for negotiation, I think that essentially his opinion is correct.  Unfortuantely, as I said in my earlier post I find it highly unlikely that talking will solve things.  They have been trying diplomacy for decades and it hasn't worked.  At this stage in the game only actions will help. Stopping attacks on Israelis and moving the settlers back would be real attention getters. Even that may not help on a micro level.  For Example, (fictional) if the Chinese living in America decided to start a revolutionary communist movement in the U.S.  and after repeated crack downs by American police forces they decided to make statements by blowing up Starbucks cafes and my sister was killed while sipping on a orange mocha frappucino, do you think I would be sympathetic to their cause?  Even if they told me they represent underpaid and exploited Chinese children, that are victims of greedy capitalist American companies.  I woudn't give a f*** about them or their movement.  That one fact that they killed my sister would probably overide everything else.  And if I were part of the police forces or military forces assigned to suppress them do you think I would think twice about putting a round through their heads when they would attempt to resist?  Or do you think that if I felt I were in danger when walking into a suspected hideout, I would ask questions first and shoot later?  GET REAL. Expand the above exponentially and you'll probably arrive at the same conclusion that I have... talking is not enough.  If the parties involved are serious about peace they need to get hot and start acting like it.  Otherwise, it'll just simmer on.

From what I understand the trouble consists of Israel occupying formerly Palestinian lands and that Palestinians want their land back as well as recognition of a Palestinian state. If I am wrong, please enlighten. I say give the Palestinians most of their land back in return for official recognition of Israeli statehood and throw in reciprocal recognition of Palestinian statehood. However, if the issue is that Arabs don't want to acknowledge Israel and that they want to get rid of the Israeli state, then I believe that this cannot be permitted. I am sure that issues aren't clear cut in the Palestinian-Israel conflict, otherwise it would have been solved a while ago. After decades of bloodshed and brutal actions by both it would be hard to imagine that the people in each nation would be open to letting bygones be bygones, unfortunately that would be the only way out of the problem. As far as Americans involvement in the Middle East there are over three thousand reasons why we need to be involved. As much as the U.S. has spent in resources and effort in resolving this problem, I can only shake my head at accusations that it has only contributed to the problem. Sure, there are many economical reasons to be involved as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. The U.S. nation is not an aide agency, it supports those causes that support it and its interests and I make no apologies for it, in fact, I support that position. Most of those that don't like this, tend to be communists, misguided idealists, Islamic fundamentalists and those that are opposed to the U.S. as the world's only Super Power. It's interesting to note that we have been killing these kinds of people for a while now when they present themselves as our enemies, I hope it will continue as long as I am in the military.