Is it so hard to make userfriendly movements?

[RaptoR-Swe 0]

Hi there

One thing i´ve always been thinking about is why you keep making the game less and less player friendly?

Modern games today, such as MW2 and BC2 have much more arcade feeling to the movements. When playing them it feels i have absolute control over my character and i can concentrate my sences to the aiming and the surroundings.

Since the game called Arma came out i always feel as if im not controlling, but wrestling my soldier forward. Zick zacking him into a building, hopefully not clipping my rifle in the doorframe so it feels as if i have an epilepsy attack.

Dont get me wrong, i love the series. I have bought every game since CWC and played them frequently but this thing has been bugging me since Arma.

Havent you ever though that you went to far with the realism? It is one thing to make a living and utterly intense battlefield, a thing you have created and allowed us to create for many years. But after making the athmosphere, cant you alow us to move free across it?

I cant be the only guy, when seeing a smal rock or bush ingame, to think. Hmmm can i walk through them or will my guy do a noclip show and freeze mid-air.

I am tired of only seeing 20 active servers in this game, about 1 - 2 of them PvP servers. When bullshit games like mw2 have bazillion gazillion of them.

And i think a step to maybe 60 active servers would be to improve the soldier. And by improve i mean to remake or copy the way it was in OFP:Res.

Thank you for your time. If this actually makes its way forward to the designers.

Cheers and forgive my english and hate for fun-killing-realism.

[Nicholas 5]

The reason MW2 has so many servers and ArmA doesn't is because ArmA isn't a mainstream game. It's not your average ordinary game. People tend to like the arcade games like MW2 more because of the fact that they can just get in and get out to feed their addiction. With this series, it takes time, patience, and even thinking. How often in MW2 do you stop to actually think and plan? You don't. It's just go go go.

The Real Virtuality engine has been in use since OFP. BIS has done a great job at improving it, but two things it never excelled at was a physics engine and fluid, seamless animations. Reworking such things into an engine that has been developed so much now isn't easy, at all. They could remake it from the ground up, but that takes time and money. BIS probably has the time, but not so much the money.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Nicholas

[Antigoon 10]

Cheers and forgive my hate for fun-killing-realism.

It's the (granted...sometimes failed:o) attempt at realism that actually makes the game fun for me. I for one certainly hope BIS does not go the COD, BF way!

[[frl]myke 14]

I cant be the only guy, when seeing a smal rock or bush ingame, to think. Hmmm can i walk through them or will my guy do a noclip show and freeze mid-air.

Please define "small rock". From what i know, you can just walk over small rocks if they are about 50cm in height. About larger....hmm...although it is always better to fight from top downwards, i guess climbimg on a rock would just make you a perfect target. And please, do me the favour, go outside and try to walk through a bush. But be warned, you might have difficulties to expect.

These are aspects the game tries to simulate. Of course we can discuss if it does well or not. Personally i wouldn't have it the other way around.

[RaptoR-Swe 0]

The reason MW2 has so many servers and ArmA doesn't is because ArmA isn't a mainstream game. It's not your average ordinary game. People tend to like the arcade games like MW2 more because of the fact that they can just get in and get out to feed their addiction. With this series, it takes time, patience, and even thinking. How often in MW2 do you stop to actually think and plan? You don't. It's just go go go.

The Real Virtuality engine has been in use since OFP. BIS has done a great job at improving it, but two things it never excelled at was a physics engine and fluid, seamless animations. Reworking such things into an engine that has been developed so much now isn't easy, at all. They could remake it from the ground up, but that takes time and money. BIS probably has the time, but not so much the money.

thank you for a great response

It is true that you dont have to plan that much in mw2. but that might be since all the maps combined in that game are probably as big as one town, generated in the editor.

I agree with you when you say that this game take more planing, and patience. however the not so seamless animations have made this game crippled. I want this game to be more mainstream, and dont get me wrong. certain things cant be mainstrean but this one can.

I hear what you say about the engine, and i can agree with you that it has improved since arma. Among many things!

Yet again i think the development have prioritied the wrong things. Such as the animations. Quick and clean animations would not have made any difference to the gaming core. But i think it would have made a giant boost in the economy. And to grant a company such boost, a company that has given us all very much feed to our addiction, is only but right ;)

Is it even possible to have animations in arma2:oa that are equal to games such as bad company 2?

To Antigoon, i dont want this game to becomd Cod, god no. I only ask for more seamless animations that are in such games. Would that ruin the arma2 athmosphere?

To Myke, I hear what you say and the point i was trying to make was that this game has never been good at the whole "clipping" issue. You find yourself stuck in a maze sometimes. And the gun, or the actual stick it looks like the soldier is holding can mess up your movements. move it close to a big rock or doorway and your soldier jumps out in a epileptic way. This is something that after Ofp:Res, should have been looked over and already been taken care off. Its 2010 now and we face the same problems as we did in like 2001 with CWC ;)

There might be a good explination which Phantom gave conserning the engine itself.

It feels like its a very hard subject, even mentioning the word MW2 or BC2 puts you in a folder where you want to remake the whole game to some arcade linjear crap. Come on, you dont have to defend the game. But i think its odd not to take a lesson in gaming and se what the other games are doing better than us. Yesterday arma 2 had like 20 servers. BC2 has to many to count. Now they cant be all bad, can they?

Especially when it comes to a thing like animations?

Edited July 15, 2010 by RaptoR-Swe

[Nielsneo 10]

Hi there

One thing i´ve always been thinking about is why you keep making the game less and less player friendly?

Modern games today, such as MW2 and BC2 have much more arcade feeling to the movements. When playing them it feels i have absolute control over my character and i can concentrate my sences to the aiming and the surroundings.

Since the game called Arma came out i always feel as if im not controlling, but wrestling my soldier forward. Zick zacking him into a building, hopefully not clipping my rifle in the doorframe so it feels as if i have an epilepsy attack.

Dont get me wrong, i love the series. I have bought every game since CWC and played them frequently but this thing has been bugging me since Arma.

Cheers and forgive my english and hate for fun-killing-realism.

That's because in MW2, BC2 and all the other arcade console shooters you are controlling a floating weightless gun, not a soldier. Arma2 does not need this kind of arcade crap. It is a military simulator and therefore simulates how it feels to move around with a lot of weight and a heavy weapon.

[maruk 80]

Hi there

Modern games today, such as MW2 and BC2 have much more arcade feeling to the movements. When playing them it feels i have absolute control over my character and i can concentrate my sences to the aiming and the surroundings.

There is one aspect that makes it completely different from development perspective. In COD type of games you move without body, you are just a point in space with fake 3D gun shown on screen and your movement is not directly linked to any actual full body animation or movement.

I am not trying to say everything is perfect in our games but mostly trying to explain one major difference that has many consequences (some of them resulting in less smooth experience).

[RaptoR-Swe 0]

There is one aspect that makes it completely different from development perspective. In COD type of games you move without body, you are just a point in space with fake 3D gun shown on screen and your movement is not directly linked to any actual full body animation or movement.

I am not trying to say everything is perfect in our games but mostly trying to explain one major difference that has many consequences (some of them resulting in less smooth experience).

I see, this explains alot. And give answers to many questions. Thank you.

Will the animations be tweaked as in speed and reaction in future patches?

[Trracer 10]

Raptor, this is also one thing that differs from the mainstream games. You would never get a response from the CEO of a "major" game house, like you do on the BI forums :)

[liquidpinky 11]

Weapons catching on door frames is a real occurrence also, why there are shorter CQC versions of assault rifles. Try turning around 180 degrees in a tight space holding a Barret 50 to get the idea.

You can use the lower weapon key to get slightly better movement within buildings so the gun doesn't catch or better still only use CQC weapons in CQC situations or switch to pistol.

I think this, whether intentional or not adds to the realism of CQC battle situations.

I do agree that a lot of the animations could maybe be smoother or more refined but the overall game experience itself elevates ARMA 2 and OA well above the clunky feeling controls being a problem.

[mrcash2009 0]

Will the animations be tweaked as in speed and reaction in future patches?

Goto the mods section and check out "Proper" addons, and also SLX, you will find they both deal with animation speeds of gun changes / stepping over, going prone etc etc.

And as its been said you are completely tied to the body of your character, so the camera isn't floating, I guess much like your head is attached to your body, all movement has a knock on effect both in terms of aim/vision/bobbing and such things. So as in realism terms (as much as it can be) you are forced to go prone, pause, stop and take aim, hold breath and those such things to get a proper shot, which to me is far better and as it would be if you were running around getting clean shots off.

The ONLY thing I would say is that when in CQB having the gun iron site up and walking slow it would be "nice" to have a way of "steadying" the gun movement and sway, in terms of mimicking you using your arms to steady to counter your body movements, especially when strafing left or right. No matter how slow you walk prone or stood the gun sway stays the same amount. I think what im saying is much like holding breath it would be good to have a button you could hold to steady sway and movent in CQB a tad more, but the rest is well balanced.

Edited July 15, 2010 by mrcash2009

[maruk 80]

Will the animations be tweaked as in speed and reaction in future patches?

It is an on-going effort so yes, possibly some more improvements to come in future updates (there is in fact big improvement since A1 in this area: A2 and A2OA feels already more fluid and responsive).

[RaptoR-Swe 0]

Raptor, this is also one thing that differs from the mainstream games. You would never get a response from the CEO of a "major" game house, like you do on the BI forums :)

I know, and this is also another thing why my addiction to the game is die-hard, its much respectful. the connection between gamers and developers have always been good and easy. which is unique!

since OFP gaming has always been my hobby, and a hobby i like sharing with other players. And its a shame that this game doesent get the credit it actually deserves. So you end up looking for answeres in why that is.

I hope that we can get a boost in players so we can beging to have epic PvP moments again. And i think a shortcut to a future boost is to tweak the animations ;)

It is an on-going effort so yes, possibly some more improvements to come in future updates (there is in fact big improvement since A1 in this area: A2 and A2OA feels already more fluid and responsive).

I certainly agree that there has been a big improvement since A1 - A2OA. And i am happy that we are on the right path.

I was concerned that alot of treads were of the mission and scripts type and not some the animations itself. Which i think, tweaking them, would give the game a big boost.

a huge chunk of Respect delivered to Maruk

Edited July 15, 2010 by RaptoR-Swe

[celery 8]

The animation system in Arma 2 is needlessly stiff and buggy. For a year now in A2 and OA I've occasionally gotten a weird tactical-looking sideways evasion animation when I've moved diagonally or sideways and brought up the weapon sights, and it's gotten me killed countless times in MP. Since OA I've also noticed that the soldier is sometimes stuck in walking mode for a second or two after he changes stance and starts moving. It's things like these that make moving your guy very, very awkward and you can never be sure whether he does what you want.

Weapons catching on door frames is a real occurrence also, why there are shorter CQC versions of assault rifles. Try turning around 180 degrees in a tight space holding a Barret 50 to get the idea.

You can use the lower weapon key to get slightly better movement within buildings so the gun doesn't catch or better still only use CQC weapons in CQC situations or switch to pistol.

I think this, whether intentional or not adds to the realism of CQC battle situations.

You can't defend it with CQB realism until the shorter weapons have shorter physical reach. It doesn't matter which weapon you're holding, you always get the same result indoors. Even handguns are clumsy as hell.

[wolfbite 8]

Could I just say.. The player character is a little too stiff for cqc.. It would be nice when walking for the chap to be a bit more fluid and more responsive to keypresses.... And in regards to gun player clipping...

Would it be possible to implement a gun character clipping system Like metal gear solid 2 or 4... I think those two games have the best character clipping ever... when your facing too close to a wall you cant lift your gun and as far as I remember they alter their stance slighly depending on what terrain obstacles your near.. Its very smooth for the cqc.

Other than that I think when you're running and you go to dive it takes a few steps.. wich adds some weight to the animation...

Just my thoughts. Cheers \m/

[liquidpinky 11]

The animation system in Arma 2 is needlessly stiff and buggy. For a year now in A2 and OA I've occasionally gotten a weird tactical-looking sideways evasion animation when I've moved diagonally or sideways and brought up the weapon sights, and it's gotten me killed countless times in MP. Since OA I've also noticed that the soldier is sometimes stuck in walking mode for a second or two after he changes stance and starts moving. It's things like these that make moving your guy very, very awkward and you can never be sure whether he does what you want.

You can't defend it with CQB realism until the shorter weapons have shorter physical reach. It doesn't matter which weapon you're holding, you always get the same result indoors. Even handguns are clumsy as hell.

Do the guns not have their own individual collision model?

If so, then they do portray their individual lengths. The real problem is that the character is always walking with the weapon shouldered, why lowering the gun does help in CQC or just navigating tight areas.

Other shooters will let you hip fire whereas ARMA 2 doesn't, this would also help in CQC situations.

The Pistol I will grant you as it is also held in the ready position, would be nice to be able to lower it as well.

I agree with wolfbite, MGS4 CQC overall is the best implemented in any game. I would love some of that hand to hand ability in ARMA 2, it would become the perfect game them.

[Murklor 10]

I would love some of that hand to hand ability in ARMA 2, it would become the perfect game them.

Oh yeah!!! You bring your hands and I bring... an armoured division backed up by attack helicopters and artillery.

Its gonna be epic.

[liquidpinky 11]

Oh yeah!!! You bring your hands and I bring... an armoured division backed up by attack helicopters and artillery.

Its gonna be epic.

Last I checked soldiers are still trained for close quarters in varying degrees, Last I checked they don't use it against tanks as that is what tanks and anti-tank weapons are for.

Let's face it, you run out of ammo or the guy is too close to get your gun out in time, either way you are going to be fighting for your life. Or are you just going to be standing there waiting for them to kill you?

Also you can silently kill someone with confidence knowing you don't have to worry about all the tanks and helis because no one was alerted in the first place. Suppressed weapons can still give you away, while a choke hold or slit throat tends not to.

All it would add is some more elements to special forces side of things for ARMA 2 missions, I don't expect every soldier to be proficient. Just limit it to the Operators etc.

While you are at it, can I haz a dart gun, men's mags for distractions and maybe some octocamo wouldn't go amiss. Oh yeah, and some big assed exclamation marks over soldiers heads when they spot you. :P

[S7_Mega 10]

It is an on-going effort so yes, possibly some more improvements to come in future updates (there is in fact big improvement since A1 in this area: A2 and A2OA feels already more fluid and responsive).

Glad to hear this Maruk. We do appreciate your time and your personal attention to the community. It's says a great deal about you and Bohemia.

I too have enjoyed the series and no other game offers the same playing experience. I share the same issue as the OP relative to how smooth the character moves in space as it directly affects the combat experience when infantry fighting. If the ground ponding experience can smoothed out it will be a tremendous improvement to the series.

[cross 1]

For those who cannot seem to control their character (or having trouble passing thru doors), I recommend to lower their mouse sensitivities, especially for infantry.

Yes you cannot perform a full 360/540 degree turn with a single mouse movement but it makes it easier to fine tune and help a lot when moving within buildings and cluttered areas.

Instead of adjusting in-game, I've set my mouse's thumb button to "precision" which lowers the sensitivity by 50-60 % in windows.

it helps a lot.

[S7_Mega 10]

Good tip but I don't think this about trouble controlling the character, it's about how smooth the player control is in this game versus others.

[LugNut 10]

You've got to be kidding me! The CEO chimes in on a thread? :eek:

I bow to you sir! Much respect to Maruk and BI!

I'm less bothered by animations getting stuck because it makes sense with the engine. I'd like to see more fluid transitions between stance changes so when going from a sprint to prone, you'd hit the dirt at speed like in RL, instead of stopping dead and slowly lowering yourself down. Same thing in reverse, when you are prone and need to take off running. Those slow transitions get me killed....

[sbsmac 0]

I agree with the OP that a more refined approach to animations and movement would really benefit the game. I don't think anyone wants a 'floating camera' but even after the improvements between A1 and A2, there is still a slight feeling of clumsiness in the movements. I can't help feeling that improving this would open up the game to a lot of people who might otherwise find their first experiences off-putting. I also agree with Celery - it's clear that even the current animation system is not as polished as it could be and there are several remaining bugs.

[jblackrupert 14]

Opening doors/gates, entering vehicles and climbing ladders needs a overhaul.

Right now it's too much of "Find the pixel" that triggers the menu game.

[Flash Thunder 10]

@Lugnut

Bohemia Interactive cares about their customers and their views on BIS products thats why! :)

Unlike those "other" companies

agreed Jblackrupert!