Recoil (again)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'm not defending it more than saying it's better than what we had. I wouldn't mind proper (like in JCOVE Lite) sway, breath control to counter it, and suppression effects due to sonic cracks, on top of the recoil. In fact I would love it!

[AnimalMother92 10]

I wouldn't mind proper (like in JCOVE Lite) sway, breath control to counter it, and suppression effects due to sonic cracks, on top of the recoil. In fact I would love it!

Yes please! That'd be fantastic :)

[maturin 12]

That's not for beta patches, though, at least not without a long development cycle to implement it correctly.

In the meantime could we please just have a cap on muzzle climb and autoadjustment inaccuracies in multiple directions? That seems more doable by tweaking the preexisting system.

[Drumheller 19]

I really don't think the argument that the new recoil is more realistic floats. Yes it's is more realistic that you can't fire fully automatic without having to compensate for the recoil but it's equally less realistic that if you don't adjust for the recoil you end up pointing at the sky.

Now I've never fired an M249 but I'm pretty sure that if I was lying down and I just pulled the trigger and aimed at nothing that the end result would not be the gun pointing straight up into the air with my back at a 90 degree angle to my legs.

The major problem with the new recoil, as others have pointed out, is that BIS seems to have chosen to ignore the fact that 90% of players will be using a mouse as an input device and having a system which forces you to make a perpetual downwards movement ends up with an irritating and immersion breaking need to constantly pick up and replace the mouse. To me it seems they have paid for an insignificant increase in realism with a large chunk of annoyance.

I really don't see why the same effect couldn't have been achieved by having the gun settle on a random slightly off center point for single shots and adding a progressive random direction drift for fully auto.

This pretty much sums up everything I want to say here(and I've said in other posts regarding this issue).

[maturin 12]

So is there a bugtracker feature request ticket for that idea?

[PuFu 4591]

why don't you search it yourself?

[Chumba 10]

This whole system of offsetting the aimpoint in this fashion is simply daft and UNREALISTIC - period! Screenshake is the BIG thing that can SIMULATE to a reasonable degree ON A PC SCREEN the whole business of shooting - along with perhaps a tiny bit of random offset. The disorientation of screenshake along with not actually having the aimpoint back to precise origin would be spot on and produce an actually very realistic experience and result.

Edited October 23, 2010 by Chumba
spelling correction

[CarlGustaffa 4]

No, screenshake doesn't actually accomplish anything (but the disorientation). I use it for vehicle mounted M2s and Mk19s in attempt to reduce effectiveness. Although it works by adding time needed to aim at something new, it doesn't work by having recoil and every round will hit its current aimed at target. Just try it.

[giorgygr 61]

@Ringosis

+1

[Hellhound 10]

I have no trouble with recoil with the assault rifles, but when prone firing with the M107 its ridiculous. The recoil should be backwards and not up. There's a vid on youtube of someone while prone shooting 10 rounds on target in 10 secs. with the M107, this is not even remotely possible in Arma 2 with the new recoil.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Everybody knows much of the recoil is kickback. How do you propose simulating the kickback in scope while causing an issue to the shooter? I think the up movement does a good enough job and forces you to reaim. If you mean

video, the distance looks like 100 meters or less, and we don't get to see the result. Means it really only shows how fast the gun can shoot, not how long time you spend in the sight to reaim at a far away and tiny target. You think anyone would shoot like that at serious distances? I seriously doubt it - only in a computer game...

I just did a test and I can put down 9 civilians (I missed one) standing side by side (lateral reaim required) at 100m using the M107 in about twelve seconds.

Maybe it's not perfect. I don't care. It slows down aiming, and makes snipers appear more like snipers. I think it's the correct move.

[Ulanthorn 10]

I noticed that a good gaming mouse with dpi selectable on the fly does wonders with controlling the new recoil guns in OA...I got one because it was to hard with my old fixed 1200 dpi office mouse. 2800dpi and full auto works good in close range...on far range you just use 800dpi.

[Hellhound 10]

The problem is that after firing the gun (barrel) is not coming back to the rest position, even in prone, totally not realistic. But it probably has to do with the fact that the spiked feet on the M107 and other sniper rifles are purely cosmetic and have no function whatsoever :(

[CarlGustaffa 4]

"Spiked feet"? :D Hehe, have to remember that one. I thought some kind of weapon rest / bipod stabilizing system was being considered. Currently you can counter it by "working the gun", drag downwards. Easy to master and doesn't allow accurate fast shooting (which is it's intention). So the system works. Rest assured that any auto return system would take far longer, and you had to wait that time before starting to counter it, making it utterly impossible to shoot fast. People would complain even more about it, and we would get the old system back - nothing gained.

Yeah I have gaming mouse with selectable DPI, but I always leave it on medium. Ehm, you do have a mouse, right? A big complainer earlier turned out to be using a touchpad (those on laptops), and yeah sure, that's obviously going to cause issues. Maybe "keyboard and mouse" should be under recommended specs? Didn't think it was needed for a game of this nature, but... :p

[Hellhound 10]

Yes i play with a mouse of coarse, and i do counter the movement bij dragging the mouse down, but it still isn't very realistic recoil behavior no matter how you look at it. I would like some collision detection on the gun, so that when prone it rests stable on the floor and not goes through the floor when pointing down! :( .

P.S specially for CarlGustaffa :D

This is where i got the "spiked feet" from

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107.html

[nkenny 1051]

Yes i play with a mouse of coarse, and i do counter the movement bij dragging the mouse down, but it still isn't very realistic recoil behavior no matter how you look at it. *snip*

The point is that ther new recoil keeps the player in the loop.

In any case Shooting in Arma2 isn't realistic. Ballistics are fucked. Animations are unatural/wooden. Weight and handling characteristics of weapons are pretty much ignored. Arma2 shooting IS NOT REALISTIC.

The new recoil forces player input when engaging targets. Recoil is quite consistent and easy to learn. The simple truth is L2P (learn to play). Its a game with rules and mechanics. Spend some time mastering these rules and your skills will increase.

-k

edit: Seven hells, I forgot the most obvious ones. The way aimpoints (collimator sights), scopes, or even regular ironsights. ARE NOT REALISTIC. Take the mp5 for instance. IRL famed for its good sights-- yet the way they are presented in Arma2 make them practically the worst of the lot. (you could hide a whole batallion... of tanks behind the rearsights.) The realism card just doesn't cut it. Argue for gameplay, game balance, immersion and intuitive interface and we may be on to something.

Edited October 24, 2010 by NkEnNy

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@Hellhound:

Yeah I was hoping you were, but as I said earlier, "of course" doesn't apply - there really are exceptions. And ok, "spiked feet" it is :D And yes, I see the term is actually used elsewhere too. Still funny, for me, guess bed is calling :p

About collision detection (I'm guessing with the bipod, not the end of the barrel), what if you needed to aim lower (terrain, slope, elevation etc)? There are numerous things you can do with your pose to achieve the desired firing position you want in real life, that doesn't exist in the game. "No you can't fire at that target from that position due collision", wouldn't that be a problem?

I checked, and first I was going to say "I'm not able to get gun through floor", but indeed it does seem to happen, but only in 3rd person. Strange, but for me a non issue (at least not visually).

So what if it isn't a realistic recoil behavior? It gets the gameplay aspect right, probably using a simplified formula for everything to speed up the development process and allow other bugs to be fixed. I wouldn't mind specific recoil models for each and every gun, but I fully understand the reasons not to. Do you want realistic helicopter flying too and deny most of the players the ability to fly?

Since you play the realism card, why didn't you bring up another part of that page? ;) I've seen that issue mentioned on this page before, and on others. But I have yet to see it appear in a request for increased realism. Funny how that works, huh?...

Edited October 24, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[akd42 10]

The problem is that after firing the gun (barrel) is not coming back to the rest position, even in prone, totally not realistic. But it probably has to do with the fact that the spiked feet on the M107 and other sniper rifles are purely cosmetic and have no function whatsoever :(

Imagine sitting an m107 on the ground, tying a string to the trigger, backing away and giving the string a tug. Would the barrel return to the same position? Now imagine doing the same with an MG.

Sorry, but there is human in the loop.

[maturin 12]

How do you propose simulating the kickback in scope while causing an issue to the shooter? .

I thought we already did.

[kklownboy 43]

recoil is fine. Most of the whiners are snipers...BAH to them.. If anything there isnt enough recoil. Best to use a mod that fits your needs.ACE/TASM/RH ect...