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Albert Schweitzer

The conflict is coming to us!

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No Tex, you must understand, this is nothing against the US. There is realy a lot we admire in your country (the statistics about export are a good indicator). However, it is very rude to tell someone that he is not worth an explanation. Of course it often makes the impression that a discussion was useless becuase neither side was capable to fully convince the other side. But did you ever hear anyone say: Yes, you convinced me, you are right and I was wrong!". No, this is against human nature and therefore irrealistic. But the actual purpose is to show the other side you train-of-thought. So he can learn about the other sides concpetion and the more you know of a culture the better communication will work in the future. We had a hard discussion about the "greatest warrior of all times". And even though it made the impression that I was not your opinion at all I used the time to research about your arguments and the final result was: I learned about your arguments! That is about the best result you can get.

Now if someone tells me I am not worth any explanation, then it is basically a total "I give up" message. I am a member of the western world as he is, I enjoyed a good education and were brought up with good manners. If he isnt even capable to explain his point of view to me, then how is gonna make people in the Middle East understand his position (or how is he gonna understand theirs). For me Ideals are a not rules to find the perfect path to follow, but a base point from which you start, and then you combine you rules with what works in reality and you will reach the perfect solution. People that follow ideals blindy are incapable to judge (and analyse) each situation independantly and use a perfect-fit solution.

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Thank you Albert, you posted just what I was thinking.

Now, good night smile.gif

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It was a joke, and even if it wasnt, I just said that we wouldnt tell you our ideals. If you want the real deal its this: because of national security concerns, our government has directed us not to release our ideals to anyone who is a quote "goddam furriner" unquote.

biggrin.giftounge.gif

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Neither am I. I'm talking about any country's flag. I would probably be angry if I saw someone burning the flag of another nation. Sorry about the socialist European comment, that was off color. Europeans due tend to be alot more left wing than Americans.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USSoldier: It has nothing to do with socialism. It has everything to do with critical thinking.

Could you please explain to me, an ignorant European what exactly the American ideals are? I have never managed to figure them out.

I find it all to be a big set of contradiction.

You talk about personal freedom and privacy, all very nice. Then you proceed persecuting poor Bill for having an affair, which by all means is his and nobody elses business.

You talk about 'no cruel and unusual punishment'. Yet you have the electric chair.

You talk about decency and family values, so you are sensitive about rude language and sex. Yet you let your children see movies with excessive violence.

Now, this isn't meant to be US bashing or anything, I am just confused and I am having a hard time understanding what the American ideals are. Please tell me.

<span id='postcolor'>

What do these contradictions have to do with me? I consider myself a fairly moral and well adjusted person who is under oath to protect my country and constitution. There are alot of hypocrits in the U.S. just like there are everywhere else. My love for my country is not demigogic bullshit. It is real and pure and that severely offends me. I don't believe that I need to die for my country, but to survive to protect it.

Classical Ideals of an American:

-Freedom of speech and religion

-Capitalism

-Duty

-Honor

-Love of Country

-Right to property

-Right to keep and bear arms

These are most of the biggies. In the military drill and ceremony concerning the flag is very strict. The flag may never touch the ground. No flag may be posted higher on a U.S. soil or at embassies or foriegn U.S. posts. A damaged flag must be repaired before flown or ceremonialy destroyed. The flag must be posted at dawn and retreated before dusk unless illuminated by lights. The flag must be retreated during foul weather. The flag must be folded according to regs. You must stop and pay respect to the flag during revielle and retreat if you are outdoors no matter what you are doing. The flag may not be used as attire or decoration. The flag may not be defaced or altered.

We have a poster up at my unit that reads:

"You must have positive ID before burning the U.S. flag....

So your family can identify your remains."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some people need symbols to materialise their values and morals, others dont! I dont. And maybe the example of the bible isnt so stupid: " you dont need a golden lamb to worship it and you dont need a picture of god to worship him! Worship the deed!<span id='postcolor'>

This is irrelavent because that has to do with making idols of God which is forbidden in Christianity and Judiasm. I don't worship my country, but I do love it. The flag is just a part of it. Americans see the flag a sacred. I doubt any church would be pleased if people were burning bibles. It is more like that than a "golden ox." I'm sorry if I offended anyone but this is a very touchy subject for me.

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Ahhhh I WANT TO KNOW NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOWWW!!!  mad.gif

biggrin.gif No, I know, but I just wanted to explain it to you since US soldier (the author of that strange post) doesnt talk to us Socialists   smile.gif

Guess what time it is here, ugly 4.30 am. Terrible enough!

(edited: forget what I said US soldier, )

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ April 26 2002,04:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These are most of the biggies. In the military drill and ceremony concerning the flag is very strict. The flag may never touch the ground. No flag may be posted higher on a U.S. soil or at embassies or foriegn U.S. posts. A damaged flag must be repaired before flown or ceremonialy destroyed. The flag must be posted at dawn and retreated before dusk unless illuminated by lights. The flag must be retreated during foul weather. The flag must be folded according to regs. You must stop and pay respect to the flag during revielle and retreat if you are outdoors no matter what you are doing. The flag may not be used as attire or decoration. The flag may not be defaced or altered.

We have a poster up at my unit that reads:

"You must have positive ID before burning the U.S. flag....

So your family can identify your remains."<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, we have a shitload of rules too in the military how you handle it and so on.... never made any impact on me, just another bunch of moronic military procedures IMO.

Now, could you explain one final thing for me, and this is not just an American occurance:

What do you mean by that you "love your country" ? I think that you could say 'I like the lifestyle' or 'I like the [choose your adjective] of the people' or 'I like the architecture' or something like that. But love a country? I really don't get that. I would never hesitate to fight a war for Sweden, but that has nothing to do with loving the country. Say that all Americans would be transferred, eh say to Africa and that the USA would then lie in Africa. Would you still love your country? Or are you talking about loving the people? Would you still then love the Hawaiians if they separated from the US?

To me it is just a naif romantic idea, not very realistic. It could be the fact that you are very young (as a nation). I am sure that we Swedes were just as nationalistic year 900 A.D smile.gif  But, please, I would like to hear your version.

Swedish coat of arms dating from 1275. Lots of rules for that one wink.gif

riksvapnet_stora.gif

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"I've seen much of the rest of the world, it is cruel and dark. Rome is the light." Maximus (The Gladiator)

My view of my country is indeed very romantic. I find it very sad that people don't feel passion for anything anymore. How do you survive day to day. I love my country as an entity, an idea. As for the people, ehhhhh... there are alot of assholes who call themselves Americans who I am ashamed to be defending. I love America none the less. Much as Maximus loves Rome in the movie Gladiator.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ April 26 2002,04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I've seen much of the rest of the world, it is cruel and dark. Rome is the light." Maximus (The Gladiator)

My view of my country is indeed very romantic. I find it very sad that people don't feel passion for anything anymore. How do you survive day to day. I love my country as an entity, an idea. As for the people, ehhhhh... there are alot of assholes who call themselves Americans who I am ashamed to be defending. I love America none the less.<span id='postcolor'>

I feel sad when I see how people get used in the name of a 'higher good'. These so called romantical ideas are responsible for much evil int he world - for instance the crusades or the current suicide bombings. These ideas are there for one reason, and one reason only: to motivate you to do stuff for your government that you otherwise probably wouldn't do. So, when sombody says he is a patriot, I feel very sad for the sob, who is getting used.

But hey! Who am I to tell you what to believe in or not.

Go and die for your country if that makes you feel happy, like your countrymen did in Vietnam, defending the American ideals.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Much as Maximus loves Rome in the movie Gladiator.<span id='postcolor'>

eh.. errr. nevermind I won't even comment this. I am sure that you see the comical in this.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote

Much as Maximus loves Rome in the movie Gladiator.

eh.. errr. nevermind I won't even comment this. I am sure that you see the comical in this. <span id='postcolor'>

Merely an allusion to get my point across. I sir, pity you because you seem to be quite a pessimist who believes that there is really no such thing as patriotism. If patriotism is a tool used by the government to get people to do thier bidding is not religion also merely a philosophy used to control the masses? I would say it has been and still is used as a means to an end. I don't believe it was that for which it was created. I take it that your are not much of a religious person either Denior. I cound't see anyone that has any kind of faith in God as not having any national pride. Why such a bitter attitude about the military? You must have had a bad experience. Yes there is alot of crap but I tend to remember all the good times and unique experiences. I accept the fact that you have no patriotism, as some people have no faith in God, or a greater good. Not all of us are able to get past our selfish instincts only to do and believe what is best for our personal interests.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ April 26 2002,11wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Merely an allusion to get my point across. I sir, pity you because you seem to be quite a pessimist who believes that there is really no such thing as patriotism. If patriotism is a tool used by the government to get people to do thier bidding is not religion also merely a philosophy used to control the masses?<span id='postcolor'>

I would say that religion has been abused in that way ever since the dawn of man. I think its really funny that a military guy can be religious. How about that 'thou shalt not kill' rule. If I remember correctly it doesn't say anything about killing being ok for a just cause or something like that. Just plain killing is wrong.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would say it has been and still is used as a means to an end. I don't believe it was that for which it was created. I take it that your are not much of a religious person either Denior.<span id='postcolor'>

And correct you would be <!--emo&smile.gif

Because of that I think I can maintain a high moral without the double standards that comes with religion. Besides, I don't need a god in any way. I believe in the practical code of conduct that our civilizations have developed. I believe in science. No need for some hokus-pokus here smile.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I cound't see anyone that has any kind of faith in God as not having any national pride.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't see the connection between them two. I had a lot of mates in the service who were nationalistic, but not at all religious.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why such a bitter attitude about the military? You must have had a bad experience. Yes there is alot of crap but I tend to remember all the good times and unique experiences.<span id='postcolor'>

The normal service was ok, full of crap but ok in general. I would never do it again, but I appriciate having that experience. And, yes, I also tend to remember the good times but now and then I get remined of how it actually sucked.

I am resentful towards the military since I have seen what the military can do in Kosovo. The Serbian soldiers were just as you motivated by 'love for their country' and look what it led to.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I accept the fact that you have no patriotism, as some people have no faith in God, or a greater good. Not all of us are able to get past our selfish instincts only to do and believe what is best for our personal interests.<span id='postcolor'>

No, no, no! Don't even try that. It is not about doing something altruistic - you can do that without doing it for your country. This is about without critical analysis executing the orders of the people who currently are in power in your country. No more, no less. In your case a president that wasn't chosen by a majority of the voters. In my case the Social democrats who think that a women with not even completed elementary schooling makas a fine secretary of education.

Btw.. do you vote? I have a hard time reconciling the 'all American ideal' of loving your country with your low percentage of voters.

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Very intersting rebuttal. I certainly respect your opion and the fact that you can be mature about it. Yes I do vote. I am a registered Republican. I find it sad that more Americans don't vote. Many of the ones that do aren't educated on the candidates that they vote for and the issues that they vote on. I study all of the issues that I vote on thoroughly and follow the campaigns of the candidates closely. For the most part I vote along party lines and according to the opinions of the lobby groups that I belong to since they have legal experts that study the issues more closely than I am able to. i.e. NRA, ANGUS and AUSA. Thier interests genrallly coincide with mine, but not always.

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Well, now we have both heard what the other thinks. I think we can agreee on that we disagree and call it a day smile.gif

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