Knife proposal

[froggyluv 2130]

Well then, good for you. And as you can see by this video, that is exactly why we shouldn't have knives in the game, we'd have people running around just knifing. Like what happens in MW2 and I don't want that and I'm sure plenty of other people don't either. People are saying it would be realistic. Well as of that demonstration it wasn't very realistic, if you try to "sneak" up behind the AI they will detect you and turn around.

Which is all more the reason t'would be better if BI tighten this up from the core rather than leaving it up to modders. The main benefit would be better CQB action and response times for the AI.

Like many 'contras' have stated -shouldn't be easy to run around knifing people. With this statement I totally agree. Melee should generally be a last ditch action should the mission go fubar, house clearing (which also needs much TLC) and missions in which the soldier starts imprisoned or civilian.

And damn you MadDogX for ruining my attempt at constant deja vu! :mad:

[MavericK96 0]

The way the magical AI works in ArmA2, you'd never get close enough to a guy to knife him anyway. Would just flip around and shoot you in the face. :D

[Pulverizer 1]

Reading over the last few pages of this thread, I'm reminded of pretty much every knife thread that has been started on these forums. It always boils down to the same thing:

*flamewar commences*

:rolleyes:

Case in point: [1], [2], [3], [4]

Ironically, you are the one shitposting in a knife thread and completely ignoring all the actual pro-knife arguments.

[EricM 0]

Give them both knives, the winner gets to decide if we get knives or not.

Priceless...

My 2 cents : knifes in particular and melee combat in general can be useful for a lot of mods and missions including civilians, animals, zombies, knights, lightsabers, gangs...

[ProfTournesol 956]

Priceless...

My 2 cents : knifes in particular and melee combat in general can be useful for a lot of mods and missions including civilians, animals, zombies, knights, lightsabers, gangs...

Absolutely, but those guys prefer to argue about their father or sergeant using / never using a knife for combat in their lifes :rolleyes:

[whisper 0]

My wild guess would be that since A1, the animation system made the thing "not-so-simple" to implement. I know I wouldn't touch animations in the new system, even though some animations issues make me cry.

[An Fiach 10]

The South Korean and North Korean war is still active. US troops are still stationed in South Korea.

I never said that melee combat doesn't happen, I never said it does happen. I said that my father never experienced any melee combat.

I'd also like to know your sources that it happens plenty.

Although officially the war never ended I wouldn't say that they are 'actively' at war. US troops are still stationed in Japan, are we still at war with them? Direct contact between US and N.K. forces rarely if ever results in any sort of combat.

As for my sources, well, first hand experience is better than second or third hand accounts. It really depends upon where you are and when. A duty post is not the same as a deployment and deployment to Kuwait is not the same as deployment to Afghanistan etc. etc.

Personally I would like to see some sort of melee ability in this game but agree with the guys that don't want to see people running around with knives everywhere. Then again, it always comes down to the people with which you are playing no matter what weapons or abilities are used.

[Daniel 0]

Then again, it always comes down to the people with which you are playing no matter what weapons or abilities are used.

Exactly. Personally I think FLIR has the capacity to ruin games much more than knives or bayonets. But that's not an issue, because I can choose to play missions that don't utilise FLIR. Are FLIR or bayonets unrealistic? No, but their inclusion is a matter of taste. The introduction of bayonets would neither be unrealistic nor would it force anyone to use them.

[xxbbcc 6]

My 2 cents : knifes in particular and melee combat in general can be useful for a lot of mods and missions including civilians, animals, zombies, knights, lightsabers, gangs...

In general, you're right, but A2 is not a zombie, knight, etc. game, it's a military simulator. I'd vote against the knife simply because I think the effort that'd go into adding them can be used better on other parts of the game.

[rübe 127]

I try it one last time: really this is (or should be) about tools in general, not about knifes only. For example we all know, that there is no realtime terrain transformation in Arma, but at least houses may have different damage models - which adds a lot.

With tools, the same trick could be pulled of for lot's of other stuff. The shovel to spawn a dump (like in spawn below 0, and then raise the object while you dig, with some sparkles and particles..). The axt to chop a tree (for an ambush/road blockade maybe? Or to make space for a camp).

And yes, finally, the knife is a useful _tool_ too. Take some jungle setting and try to think of a machete rather than a spoon. How about you could chop some bushes too? What if even plants had one or multiple damage stages/models? At least the snipers among you would love such a feature, wouldn't you?

A knife is first and foremost a tool (that you can kill with it is just random). And Arma could really need some tools.

Second it would be silly to implement "knifes", but not a generic "tool" system, that could be configured as desired with custom tool-objects, animations, and actions. And for the most part, even a small set of generic animations (with defineable execution time/speed and maybe direction/vector) would cover most useages of a tool. Stabing is just one of them.

(btw. if you agree, this ticket is pretty much related: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/8893)

[MavericK96 0]

A tool system would be nice, like maybe to be able to dig a foxhole or something?

[das attorney 857]

Although officially the war never ended I wouldn't say that they are 'actively' at war. US troops are still stationed in Japan, are we still at war with them? Direct contact between US and N.K. forces rarely if ever results in any sort of combat.

As for my sources, well, first hand experience is better than second or third hand accounts. It really depends upon where you are and when. A duty post is not the same as a deployment and deployment to Kuwait is not the same as deployment to Afghanistan etc. etc.

Agreed. As far as I'm aware, Korea isn't an active war as they reached a ceasefire but did not ever negotiate peace terms. I think they tried an armistice but it was not ratified by all of the parties involved. Hence the DMZ along the 38th parallel.

Ninety nine % of the military bods I speak to in Osan, Kunsan, or any of the other bases regard their stay there as Overseas PCS, not a deployment. The remainder describe their PCS as a deployment incorrectly (whenever I've had to speak to their CO to clear it up).

Anyway, on the subject of bayonets; yeah, why not? But only after some more fundamental issues are sorted out (pathfinding, AI, fleshing out vehicles, performance optimisations, CQB, bugfixing etc). It's a good idea but way down on the 'to do' list.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Das Attorney

[ryguy 10]

A tool system would be nice, like maybe to be able to dig a foxhole or something?

This has been implemented in some games like Dom where you can spawn a trench :P Somewhat simpler but gets the job done.

Exactly. Personally I think FLIR has the capacity to ruin games much more than knives or bayonets.

Can you be pleased with anything? FLIR is an incredibly effective killing machine, now you complain about it? You can choose between convenience for MP games or realism, but you can't have both. But I guess I'm just a sheeple following everyone else, you not liking FLIR makes you higher than everyone else!

[Daniel 0]

Can you be pleased with anything? FLIR is an incredibly effective killing machine, now you complain about it? You can choose between convenience for MP games or realism, but you can't have both. But I guess I'm just a sheeple following everyone else, you not liking FLIR makes you higher than everyone else!

Wow, you've certainly twisted that one around. I said it had the capacity to ruin a mission, not that it does. Hell, it's used in the real world, why shouldn't it be in game!?

My comparison was this: Adding FLIR to a mission, say played as an Apache gunner, now suddenly makes that mission incredibly easy. The enemy won't hide in micro-terrain (which doesn't exist in the ArmA world) or cover themselves in blankets to avoid being seen with thermal imaging.

However, adding the ability to fix bayonets to your weapon isn't going to make that much difference - you will still be shot in the face you try to charge someone with an AK aimed at you.

My argument is that bayonets would not adversely affect gameplay, and to say so overlooks other features, FLIR being one I happened to choose.

Don't get me wrong, i'm glad FLIR has been introduced to such a good level by BIS. But it's the kind of thing people said would take too much effort, so now why not bayonets?

Edited July 17, 2010 by Daniel

[Pundaria 10]

Back to the old situation......... people argue about AI. Then improve AI while implementing melee!

[xxbbcc 6]

A tool system would be nice, like maybe to be able to dig a foxhole or something?

I have to say I'd prefer not to have this. It's not that I have anything against more features in the game, but I'd rather not simulate digging a hole, etc. The current possibility of having an action menu item is enough in my opinion for these rare needs. Even for wirecutters (which could be very handy), I think an action menu item would be enough. I'd rather have BI work on more important parts of the game.

[tsb247 0]

Most soldiers I know only ever used their knives for opening cans, MREs, or removing ticks. I don't really see a place for them in ArmA 2.

[Pulverizer 1]

Most soldiers I know only ever used their knives for opening cans, MREs, or removing ticks. I don't really see a place for them in ArmA 2.

Did most soldiers you know use a T-34 tank, Lee Enfield rifle, a bus and a 50-year old tractor to kill people? No? Yet those seem to have a place in Arma 2.

Do you know any Takistani or Chernarussian soldiers?

[dragon01 902]

Enfield rifle is in ArmA II?

I know that there's a version of Mauser 98 (CZ550 hunting rifle), but never seen any really old guns aside from that and Barret M1911A2 (and maybe Revolver .45 from OA, but I only know if from rading website, because I don't have OA).

[Pulverizer 1]

Enfield rifle is in ArmA II?

Yes, with the OA expansion. (Don't get your hopes up though: no manual bolting, no bolting animation, no bayonet etc.)

[MavericK96 0]

I have to say I'd prefer not to have this. It's not that I have anything against more features in the game, but I'd rather not simulate digging a hole, etc. The current possibility of having an action menu item is enough in my opinion for these rare needs. Even for wirecutters (which could be very handy), I think an action menu item would be enough. I'd rather have BI work on more important parts of the game.

Fair enough, I'd rather they work on other things as well. Just an idea, though.

[pre-Vet 10]

when I read the title I thougth of asking a girl to marry with a knife on ther troath...

I prefer having an extra weapon on your back (maybe a sniperrifle backpack?) to having a knive...

(http://www.popguns.com/images/eberlestock/gs3.jpg)

[savagevcb 10]

And once again people want to crawl around sneakily. I never understand the need for a stealth kill. Surely either they don't know you're there, in which case well done, now carry on. Or you're being shot at, which is when you'll want to kill. Don't give me a knife, give me a Dane axe, accompanied with compulsory screaming Viking animation.

On a slightly more serious note. To those going on about silenced weapons, as I understand bayonets are so much more common to be fixed to the end of your gun than silencers that the argument you're using against knives can be successfully applied to them, but I want to put a scenario to you:

You are storming a building in pvp, the injury system is on. Grenade goes off, you rush in a foe is incapacitated on the floor in front of you. Do you empty half a clip into him? (You're storming, gun is on full auto) or stab him?

I'm going to save my ammo thanks, I'll use it on someone who isn't helpless, also, this isn't a quiet stealthy lol kill, this is finishing a downed enemy after a grenade.

[nkenny 1051]

You are storming a building in pvp, the injury system is on. Grenade goes off, you rush in a foe is incapacitated on the floor in front of you. Do you empty half a clip into him? (You're storming, gun is on full auto) or stab him?

I'm going to save my ammo thanks, I'll use it on someone who isn't helpless, also, this isn't a quiet stealthy lol kill, this is finishing a downed enemy after a grenade.

How do you know he isn't faking it?

How do you know he isn't cradling a hand grenade?

How do you know his friend isn't right around the corner?

What if one bayonet strike isn't enough?

etc

Nah. Viking scream and put a burst in the bastard.

[froggyluv 2130]

I'd love to see what you just described play out from time to time! That'd be a story to tell your grandkids about while dumping rounds in him would not.

Thats the thing, melee should be unusual and not the standard mode of attack -but when it goes down, some interesting dynamics may occur.

I've heard they put rock-throwers in OA (yet to see em), I wonder how many people thought that was a waste of resources :rolleyes: